How long will the Class 810s stay on Midland Main Line

[quantinghome]

With momentum building for the electrification of MML to Sheffield and Nottingham, should we expect to see the Class 810s replaced by new electric-only trains once electrification is complete, and then a cascade to XC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With momentum building for the electrification of MML to Sheffield and Nottingham, should we expect to see the Class 810s replaced by new electric-only trains once electrification is complete, and then a cascade to XC?

I'd think them more likely to stay but with the engines removed other than possibly one for emergency rescue/hotel power purposes as per most 80x.

There are plenty of 80x so there will be plenty of market for spare engines.

 

[zwk500]

First off, I won't hold my breath for full electrification to be completed in the lifetime of the units. If it is, I'd expect them either to keep some engines or to replace the engines with battery packs, so they can run off-wires over the Erewash or to Doncaster/Leeds/York as required.

 

[quantinghome]

First off, I won't hold my breath for full electrification to be completed in the lifetime of the units.

It appears that electrification to Nottingham and Sheffield is getting the full go-ahead. That's not going to take 30 years.

If it is, I'd expect them either to keep some engines or to replace the engines with battery packs, so they can run off-wires over the Erewash or to Doncaster/Leeds/York as required.

I can't see why the MML London services would be required to extend to Leeds/Doncaster/York or use the Erewash line. The Class 810s would be useful on Leeds-Nottingham though.

 

[Ianno87]

I'd think them more likely to stay but with the engines removed other than possibly one for emergency rescue/hotel power purposes as per most 80x.

There are plenty of 80x so there will be plenty of market for spare engines.

I'm assuming various diversionary bits and bobs won't be done, e.g.
-Corby-Manton-Syston
-Erewash
-North of Sheffield to Moorthorpe
-Nottingham to Lincoln

So the diesel engines will still be required for this bits, so at least some of the fleet will need to keep them.

 

[zwk500]

It appears that electrification to Nottingham and Sheffield is getting the full go-ahead. That's not going to take 30 years.

Sheffield was given a pretty strong go-ahead about 10 years ago wasn't it? It's not the project taking 30 years, but politicians making up their minds that I fear taking ad infinitum.

I can't see why the MML London services would be required to extend to Leeds/Doncaster/York or use the Erewash line. The Class 810s would be useful on Leeds-Nottingham though.

EMT used to run Saturday extensions to Scarborough and York, and Erewash is a fully booked diversionary line, used frequently on weekends or during disruption. As is the 'Old Road' via Barrow Hill.

 

[quantinghome]

Are we saying that bi-modes are now a must due to non-electrified diversionary routes? Is permanently lugging around the whole diesel kit and caboodle worth it for the occasional inconvenience of loco hauling off the wires?

 

[cle]

I could see a few bi-modes being kept for those extremities, or diversions. Not sure the York or Scarborough trips will survive. Leeds is on the chopping block, and a regular service there would actually be very useful for the interim places, and as another XC-esque frequency (Derby and up, to Leeds).

It is looking like a fairly national 8xx fleet is emerging though. I'd think XC next. And lots of use for bi-modes there. So I'm sure that the wider pool would grow, if needed for diversionary instances.

 

[zwk500]

Are we saying that bi-modes are now a must due to non-electrified diversionary routes? Is permanently lugging around the whole diesel kit and caboodle worth it for the occasional inconvenience of loco hauling off the wires?

It depends on what the recovery strategy is. Certainly LNER have found having even 1 engine per 5 cars useful in getting trains moving again during major disruption. The better option is batteries, and the technology is maturing quickly to allow them to fulfill this emergency role very soon. GWR are experimenting with replacing some gensets with batteries for the South Devon Banks already.

 

[JonathanH]

The Class 810s would be useful on Leeds-Nottingham though

No they wouldn't. They would be completely overspecified. Leeds to Nottingham is a regional route on which there is no need for trains with pointy noses, kitchens, first class etc

I suspect you are suggesting that there would be enough electricification between Chesterfield and Sheffield to justify bi-modes but they wouldn't need to be bi-modes with pointy noses.

 

[Ianno87]

Are we saying that bi-modes are now a must due to non-electrified diversionary routes? Is permanently lugging around the whole diesel kit and caboodle worth it for the occasional inconvenience of loco hauling off the wires?

Given the trains are now ordered, yes.

In reality, I suspect some trains would lose their diesel engines, but enough would be kept to cover diversionary scenarios and off-route extensions.

I don't think it is practical to loco haul Sunday diversions via Corby for anything more than the occasional train, for example (not for, day, 2tph each way)

 

[tbtc]

The 810s are being built specifically for the MML (I don't just mean that EMR are the ones doing the ordering, I mean that the length of the 810s is different to that of the 800/801/802s to maximise the occupation of the platforms at St Pancras)

So, if you replace the 810s with an 800-style train then you'd be replacing the 10x 24m carriages with 26m long carriages which would lose the ability to run as one fleet of five coach trains capable of doubling up

9x26m would be okay at St Pancras, but the EMR plan is for only around half the diagrams to be 10x24m and the others to be 5x24m (based on the number of units that they are ordering

So, if 9x26m is your maximum (which won't fill the St Pancras platform, but there's no room for a tenth coach of that length) then do you:

1. Run everything as 9x26m (i.e. needing something in the region of 22x9 which would be around a third more carriages than the 33x5 carriages worth of 810s)?
2. Order some 5x26m trains and also some 4x26m trains to enable them to work in multiple as 9x26m length?
3. Order roughly as many carriages to replace the 810s on a "carriage for carriage" basis but then that means running everything as (say) seven carriages, rather than the EMR plan which will be to run 10x24 on the busier services by doubling up the 810s?

Or do you replace a "bespoke" fleet of 24m length 810s with a similar "bespoke" fleet of 24m length "pure" EMUs? But, now that the technology is out there, I'd expect some kind of self-powered ability as standard, even for trains that are planned to spend all of their life under the wires, like the FirstGroup 803s with battery capabilities - in which case why not just keep the 810s (but without as much diesel in their tanks)?

(and this is on the assumption that Sheffield ever sees electrification, which seems further away now than it felt ten years ago)

 

[Bald Rick]

Reasonably sure they’ll stay post electrification. Erewash and Corby - Syston won’t be done anytime soon, so some, if not all, will remain as hybrids.

After that it’s the calculation of the net cost of removing the power pack and supporting kit to put in something else vs the ongoing maintenance cost and any saving in electricity from not lugging them around.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2021 ==

like the FirstGroup 803s with battery capabilities

The 803s batteries don’t have the capability to move the train. It’s to keep hotel power during extended time with the wires off, presumably for incidents, but possibly for drags as well?