Joining trains together?

[YesToHS2]

I have just be debating the proposals for HS2 (unsurprisingly) but had an interesting thought about the feasibility of joining two trains together. The particular thought comes from the case of Liverpool Lime Street, there is no economical way to extend the station to 400m due to land constraints, it would in effect double the platform length. But what if two HS2 classic compatible trains were joined together shortly after leaving the station? This would in effect be one train as the new HS2 line will be designed with 400m lengths in mind and as such Euston will be extended and all new stations will be built to accommodative 400m trains.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[MCR247]

Joining what two trains together? :?

 

[YesToHS2]

Two 200m long trains to make one 400m long train.

 

[bangor-toad]

Why bother?
OK, it'd be stunningly expensive to extend the station. But why not just use selective door opening over 1/2 the train?
There might need to be some alteration to the track layout and obviously signaling to make this happen but it'd be much cheaper than building a 400m platform...

As an alternative, why not run a 200m train and have it join at a station some way along the trip with another train from another destination. eg a Liverpool train and Preston train could join at Birmingham. That'd allow better use of capacity for the trains and tracks.
(This method is extensively used on Southern)

I really don't think having 2 trains leaving virtually at the same time and then having them joined together somewhere outside the station would work.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[MCR247]

Why bother?
OK, it'd be stunningly expensive to extend the station. But why not just use selective door opening over 1/2 the train?
There might need to be some alteration to the track layout and obviously signaling to make this happen but it'd be much cheaper than building a 400m platform...

I doubt that is possible.

 

[Geezertronic]

Depending on the service patterns that HS2 may offer, it certainly may be worth considering 2 smaller trains as a longer service from London to Birmingham International/Interchange where they split and go their separate ways (either to Birmingham Curzon, Manchester or Leeds) to save on paths. Just depends on whether you want to give the HS2 bashers ammo by suggesting shorter trains would be needed

 

[ukrob]

Why bother?
OK, it'd be stunningly expensive to extend the station. But why not just use selective door opening over 1/2 the train?
There might need to be some alteration to the track layout and obviously signaling to make this happen but it'd be much cheaper than building a 400m platform...

Because Lime Street is a busy terminus and the station throat would be fowled?

If there is not any room to extend the station, it follows that there isn't any room to create a track layout for a 400m train!

 

[YesToHS2]

I just thought it might be interesting to know. As there is no way that Liverpool could be extended and other stations for that matter I just just wondering if joining to 200m trains together at some point would make better use of the paths available on the HS2 line. I'm thinking much further into the future of course. The planned services from HS2 already supply and extra 2tph to Liverpool and Warrington, with an extra 3tph to Manchester and Birmingham Curzon street.

The HS2 line will be able to accommodate 400m long trains and even double decked trains if demand ever called for it but the WCML and some stations served by HS2 services will never be able to accommodate these trains.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought all the 'classic compatible' HS2 trains were to be 200m anyway?

 

[Geezertronic]

I thought all the 'classic compatible' HS2 trains were to be 200m anyway?

Taking an existing 9 car 390 as an example, each coach is apparently 24.1m long which makes the sets 216.9m. An extended to 11 car 390 would be 265.1m. Those figures could also apply to "classic compatible" HS2 stock

 

[YesToHS2]

I thought all the 'classic compatible' HS2 trains were to be 200m anyway?

Yeah that's what I meant. Dedicated HS2 trains may be 400m long though as they will serve newly built stations.

 

[moggie]

Because Lime Street is a busy terminus and the station throat would be fowled?

By a Liver Bird I presume - sorry couldn't resist it - it's in my nature!

I'll get my coat.

 

[Chris125]

I dont see a problem as 200m classic-compatible trains will probably run alone when off the high-speed network anyway - if track capacity demands they double up on HS2 then that shouldnt be too difficult to achieve, especially if the 'Classic' and HS2-only designs are compatible.

Chris

 

[hairyhandedfool]

To be honest, if there were two portions at Liverpool and they both joined at a later station, I'd expect the earlier departure to be packed and the latter to be empty, a better idea is to have trains joining with trains from other places, like Manchester or wherever.

But what is the problem with ripping up 200 metres of Liverpool anyway? (Joke)

 

[WatcherZero]

More logical would be a split at Manchester (possibly at Airport as not all services run into the city centre) with one running to Liverpool and the other running to Edinburgh/Glasgow. Liverpool to Scotland would be served by existing classic stock.

 

[sprinterguy]

As has been said, the HS2 “Classic compatible” trains are expected to be the current maximum 200 metres long anyway. Joining two trains just outside, say, Lime Street would be pointless: You would increase journey time by having to stop just after having set off for the trains to couple, and the additional train would be running completely empty to the next station, unless you are suggesting that the two trains load at adjacent platforms and then depart within a couple of minutes of each other to couple together outside of the station throat, which would still be a vast waste of station capacity.

Much better to run one 200m train from the classic network and join it to another to make a 400m long train at a station on HS2, such as a potential Manchester Airport station (which I think is likely), if running a service such as Liverpool to London.

 

[YesToHS2]

A unless you are suggesting that the two trains load at adjacent platforms and then depart within a couple of minutes of each other to couple together outside of the station throat, which would still be a vast waste of station capacity.

That was the initial idea

Much better to run one 200m train from the classic network and join it to another to make a 400m long train at a station on HS2, such as a potential Manchester Airport station (which I think is likely), if running a service such as Liverpool to London.

This makes more sense though

 

[RobShipway]

Yeah, you could have one train that has come up HS2 from London to Birmingham that is then joined to a train that has come up from Reading with the two trains heading on up to Manchester and then on to Glasgow either via HS2 or the classic line.

Of course the train from Reading would have come up from Bournemouth, Poole or Weymouth.

 

[LE Greys]

Didn't something similar used to happen with some Motorail services, where the train would pull out, stop to pick up the vans, then continue? Otherwise, I often used to hear about locomotives well beyond the starter out of King's Cross among others (including one evacuation train of 24 coaches started by a V2 somewhere in Gasworks Tunnel hock: ).

 

[jopsuk]

That sort of thing would wreak havoc with the high-intensity timetables at many terminals, especially in cities other than London that saw massive "rationalisation" of their mainline stations.

 

[sprinterguy]

Didn't something similar used to happen with some Motorail services, where the train would pull out, stop to pick up the vans, then continue? Otherwise, I often used to hear about locomotives well beyond the starter out of King's Cross among others (including one evacuation train of 24 coaches started by a V2 somewhere in Gasworks Tunnel hock: ).

With some of the Motorail services I expect that it was the case in a few locations, as the Motorail bays were only long enough for the vans on their own.

I too have read about the V2 at Kings Cross starting in the tunnel-With today's high frequency timetables, as jopsuk says, it would never be possible to get away with now!