BBC News Article - Rail industry urges workers not to spurn the train

[stj]

Lets reopen Coal Mines to create rail traffic! It wont happen.Rail Industry needs to adapt to WFH which is the new way of working.

 

[Purple Orange]

People should say where they are commuting to and from. I go from Wilmslow to Manchester mostly. It’s getting busier.

 

[43096]

The panic is starting to sink in. Like many I used to buy a four figure season ticket and now I commute by car only. Where’s the incentive to go back?

Exactly.

Like you, I was a daily commuter on the train. Now working from home and going into the office about once every two weeks at present. Went in yesterday and it reminded me just how poor an offering rail is. It also reminded me that despite it being journey of around 35 miles, it takes me about 1hr40mins door-to-door going in and around 2hrs coming back now that they've axed the peak extra services. And SWR want to add extra stops...

Until the industry wakes up and realises just how poor a service it provides, it has no hope. Essentially the railway provides a poor service at a very high price.

 

[pdq]

I'm currently commuting by car (Batley/Huddersfield) but will think carefully about this in the next few weeks when my employer's carpark reverts to permit holders only.
If I know I will be in the office full time, an annual season ticket just about makes it worth the train journey on cost alone. An annual season for me is £984 which is reckoned by National Rail to be £3.79 per day for 5 days a week.
A flexi season for 3 days is £5.66 a day - a big leap.

To drive is a 20 mile round trip - so say £2.60 in fuel in my economical i10. Other car costs are totally marginal. The door to door times are very similar for car vs train. If I can park for nothing it's a no-brainer cost-wise. I can usually find free on-street parking <10 mins walk from the office so I pay around £1 per day for not having to drive. The way the traffic has been for the last few days, that's worth it but only if doing it all the time. As soon as I go down to, say, 3 days a week, the cost per train journey rockets, and the practical hassle of the drive becomes less of an issue.

I'm not sure how much my train commute contributes to the local economy, as the report is implying - there are no facilities at my home station and I just walk straight to work.

I imagine my circumstances are similar for a lot of people, especially those with not a great commute, and where journey times are comparable. I really don't know what I'm going to decide to do.

 

[neilm]

It's pretty simple for me, a standard anytime ticket is too expensive.

Gone from 5 days a week annual season ticket to WFH as its not viable to go in the office 2/3 days a week, our office is not even open 5 days a week yet like many employers. The government and RDG can say what they want but it does not change this.

For example, 5 day season worked out at £400 a month, and yet an anytime return is £40 a day... Ridiculous.

Unless there is fare reforms like many people say, I will remain at home.

 

[43096]

I’m not commuting by rail on a Sunday-ish timetable overlaid with ad hoc cancellations. That kind of shenanigans I can put up with for leisure travel, but when I’m working, time is money and stress.

I’m also nervous that there’s going to be lots of industrial action late this year, or early next, around pensions, pay or redundancies - or all three - and having suffered nine months of that in 2016, I’m not going to spend thousands more pounds on a season ticket to become collateral damage (again).

Dinosaur unions as part of a dinosaur industry! Pointless taking strike action when a large proportion of the railway's passengers have coped just fine, thank you very much, without the railway for 18 months or more.

 

[Ianno87]

It's pretty simple for me, a standard anytime ticket is too expensive.

Gone from 5 days a week annual season ticket to WFH as its not viable to go in the office 2/3 days a week, our office is not even open 5 days a week yet like many employers. The government and RDG can say what they want but it does not change this.

For example, 5 day season worked out at £400 a month, and yet an anytime return is £40 a day... Ridiculous.

Unless there is fare reforms like many people say, I will remain at home.

IMHO, the price point of flexi-seasons needs to be quite considerably improved (and making them actually flexible)

 

[neilm]

I'm currently commuting by car (Batley/Huddersfield) but will think carefully about this in the next few weeks when my employer's carpark reverts to permit holders only.
If I know I will be in the office full time, an annual season ticket just about makes it worth the train journey on cost alone. An annual season for me is £984 which is reckoned by National Rail to be £3.79 per day for 5 days a week.
A flexi season for 3 days is £5.66 a day - a big leap.

To drive is a 20 mile round trip - so say £2.60 in fuel in my economical i10. Other car costs are totally marginal. The door to door times are very similar for car vs train. If I can park for nothing it's a no-brainer cost-wise. I can usually find free on-street parking <10 mins walk from the office so I pay around £1 per day for not having to drive. The way the traffic has been for the last few days, that's worth it but only if doing it all the time. As soon as I go down to, say, 3 days a week, the cost per train journey rockets, and the practical hassle of the drive becomes less of an issue.

I'm not sure how much my train commute contributes to the local economy, as the report is implying - there are no facilities at my home station and I just walk straight to work.

I imagine my circumstances are similar for a lot of people, especially those with not a great commute, and where journey times are comparable. I really don't know what I'm going to decide to do.

Absolutely, flexi season tickets are a joke. It's cheaper to buy two weeklys for more days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2021 ==

IMHO, the price point of flexi-seasons needs to be quite considerably improved (and making them actually flexible)

Agreed, mine is £280 instead of £400 for a whole month. I think around £150 - £180 would be reasonable.

 

[Horizon22]

Absolutely, flexi season tickets are a joke. It's cheaper to buy two weeklys for more days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2021 ==


Agreed, mine is £280 instead of £400 for a whole month. I think around £150 - £180 would be reasonable.

I imagine the problem the DfT / treasury / TOCs have is there's going to be a gap between what passengers feel is "reasonable" and what the finances say are "viable". Not sure what the overall solution to this is going to be in the medium to long-term.

 

[neilm]

I imagine the problem the DfT / treasury / TOCs have is there's going to be a gap between what passengers feel is "reasonable" and what the finances say are "viable". Not sure what the overall solution to this is going to be in the medium to long-term.

Indeed but the treasury is going to end with 0 money instead of some money in many cases I believe.

The fact that off peak and weekend trains are busy and yet peak time trains are not clearly shows that its price issue.

 

[yorksrob]

I imagine the problem the DfT / treasury / TOCs have is there's going to be a gap between what passengers feel is "reasonable" and what the finances say are "viable". Not sure what the overall solution to this is going to be in the medium to long-term.

Take a leaf out of Austria's book.

And give up the pretence that the railway system is a commercial enterprise. This might have been credible in 1990, but it's fully publicly supported now and taxpayers should be able to get the most out of it, rather than carrying around four empty carriages on each train in the hope that some mythical businessman with an unlimited expense account is going to turn up and pay 400 quid to go to Penzance.

 

[bb21]

Absolutely, flexi season tickets are a joke. It's cheaper to buy two weeklys for more days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2021 ==


Agreed, mine is £280 instead of £400 for a whole month. I think around £150 - £180 would be reasonable.

The problem with flexi seasons is poor management of expectations, and all the drum beat prior to unveiling an unattractive product to most, but then how do you polish a turd as they say?

The flexi seasons were never intended to undercut the cost of existing season tickets, so if previously seasons saved money on three journeys a week, the flexi seasons were not intended to make that cheaper, however the impression I got (as I suspect many others) prior to their launch was that it would save money. So if you now commuted 3 days a week as opposed to 5 previously, you would find the new flexi seasons exceptionally poor value as the daily costs would have gone up considerably.

Indeed but the treasury is going to end with 0 money instead of some money in many cases I believe.

The fact that off peak and weekend trains are busy and yet peak time trains are not clearly shows that its price issue.

Not just a pricing issue. Some of the changes in travel patterns seen during the pandemic will continue regardless. WFH is continuing and expanding compared to pre-pandemic. Both the treasury and the industry will need to seriously sit down and consider how best to adapt to these changes. Nothing will happen without either party (especially the former) having the will to do so.

 

[Horizon22]

Take a leaf out of Austria's book.

And give up the pretence that the railway system is a commercial enterprise. This might have been credible in 1990, but it's fully publicly supported now and taxpayers should be able to get the most out of it, rather than carrying around four empty carriages on each train in the hope that some mythical businessman with an unlimited expense account is going to turn up and pay 400 quid to go to Penzance.

That sounds great in my book - and for most people generally - but I simply don't believe this government (or many others to be fair) are going to want to stump up that cost. That or there will be difficult discussions to be had about services and costs as many here have alluded too. Can't run a full service with reduced passenger demand (still too early to say of course) on the same fare expectations indefinitely, but some are in denial about this. It's what TfL were expected to do for months and then had to be "bailed out" (I use quotes because it was a position they were forced into, with full knowledge this was going to happen).

 

[Bishopstone]

It’s a bit cheeky these rail bigwigs crafting the narrative ‘get back to a daily commute, or Fred’s Cafe is done for!’ when what they really want to say is ‘get back to a daily commute, or middle management at the TOCs will be thinned even more than currently planned!’

Nimble Fred probably junked his Zone 1 lease and moved his cafe to Dorking (now with ‘artisan’ bacon) months ago.

 

[RT4038]

Take a leaf out of Austria's book.

And give up the pretence that the railway system is a commercial enterprise. This might have been credible in 1990, but it's fully publicly supported now and taxpayers should be able to get the most out of it, rather than carrying around four empty carriages on each train in the hope that some mythical businessman with an unlimited expense account is going to turn up and pay 400 quid to go to Penzance.

Fine provided that the money going into the rail industry going forward is no more than that pre-Covid. So the Industry must cut its cloth accordingly.

 

[anthony263]

I used to be the railway's greatest cheerleader and would use the train wherever possible. It now comes a distant second compared to driving due to comfort (more specifically 800s), prices, lack of connections and what feels like near constant cancellations/delays/short-forms.

Primarily though, I'm frankly not interesed in long distance travel until someone sorts out this god awful trend for ironing board seats & 10 car 'InterCity' EMUs which routinely get cut down to 5. I wonder how many others feel the same?

The great Western route would be nicer if fares were cheaper and trains had decent seats. Like you I'm not a fan too much of the Hitachi units.

I'm hoping grand unions 2nd attempt will succeed. If only they could purchase a bi mode version of the class 745

 

[yorksrob]

Fine provided that the money going into the rail industry going forward is no more than that pre-Covid. So the Industry must cut its cloth accordingly.

That depends really. Are you talking about capital expenditure or day to day running costs, because as far as I'm aware, a large proportion of the support going to the railway pre-covid ended up on s physical enhancements. I'm not averse to a bit of cloth trimming here where it is fitted to new realities such as commuting patterns.

But in terms of running the day to day railway, I don't agree with designing services simply to fit an arbitrary pre covid budget. We should decide on the service we need, then pay for it. Whether that costs more or less than pre covid is neither here nor there.

 

[bramling]

Lets reopen Coal Mines to create rail traffic! It wont happen.Rail Industry needs to adapt to WFH which is the new way of working.

A way of working for *some* people.

Those who cannot or do not want to work from home are sick of hearing about it, especially when for many it boils down to because they can’t be bothered to commute.

 

[sd0733]

But in terms of running the day to day railway, I don't agree with designing services simply to fit an arbitrary pre covid budget. We should decide on the service we need, then pay for it. Whether that costs more or less than pre covid is neither here nor there.

As nice as that would to the treasury rail comes up against policing, healthcare, education etc and to the vast majority pouring money to keep trains that they personally don't use is a long long way down their list of priorities, a fair chunk of the population wouldn't be particularly fussed if the whole lot shut down tomorrow.
Even the pre-covid budget is probably a stretch to continue the way money had been pi**ed up the wall over the last 18 months.

 

[Horizon22]

But in terms of running the day to day railway, I don't agree with designing services simply to fit an arbitrary pre covid budget. We should decide on the service we need, then pay for it. Whether that costs more or less than pre covid is neither here nor there.

Maybe neither "here nor there" for you or perhaps those of us who want a fantastic railways system and/or work on it or utilise it, but those with the money (Treasury) will look at it with more critical eyes unfortunately.

 

[Socanxdis]

Tocs cutting or considering cutting services isn't helping.

 

[yorksrob]

As nice as that would to the treasury rail comes up against policing, healthcare, education etc and to the vast majority pouring money to keep trains that they personally don't use is a long long way down their list of priorities.
Even the pre-covid budget is probably a stretch to continue the way money had been pi**ed up the wall over the last 18 months.

Try taking away the local rail service and I suspect you'll find its every bit as contentious as trying to close the local school or hospital.

 

[wimbledonpete]

I haven't started commuting again yet - starting at the end of the month. But a completely different model to previously - just two days a week and I can work at home for a couple of hours before getting the first off peak train up. So I'll be paying under £3000 a year as opposed to nearly £8000 before, it's a great deal for me but I won't be alone so that's a lot of revenue no longer going to the railway. To give South Eastern maximum credit they've made the first off-peak train from Folkestone 12 carriages instead of 6 so they must be seeing a huge uplift at that time. (Previously there were no 12 coach trains going up to London in the morning, or ever, to my knowledge.)

 

[Horizon22]

Tocs cutting or considering cutting services isn't helping.

What is the right balance though? As I said above, running the full service with less passenger demand just isn't sustainable. TfL had to do this and (yes they have other issues) rapidly ran out of money. Some TOCs have cut too much but others have been more marginal. Also different TOCs have different types of users; a heavily commuter based railway (that used to cover many of its costs) will probably have more suppressed demand going forward than an operator that has seen higher leisure travellers.

It's a bit of a broken record but demand-wise there's still a lot of "let's wait and see" as travelling patterns still haven't stabilised.

 

[MattRat]

On the brightside, it sounds like overcrowding won't be as much of a problem.

 

[Master29]

If you look at the comments section, the most upvoted ones all refer to value for money. Or rather, the near total absence of it in the passenger railway.

With the upsurge in recent years of budget airlines and domestic services you don't have to look far to see why that may be one of the main reasons for this. You only have to look at flightradar24 to see how many internal flights are taking place at any given moment during the day. Had Flybe not gone under they might have made a killing on flights from places like Cornwall to the capital given GWR's horrendous pricing and poor quality trains.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Certainly in my experience, taking the train is far less attractive to me for many journeys (though it was hardly attractive pre-Covid). My local station has had its frequency cut from 4 tph to 2tph and reduced to 1tph in the evenings. I also looked at taking a train from Glasgow to Dundee recently for myself and my partner. While I'd love to take the train, the £70 cost for reduced flexibility and a slower overall journey time thanks to poor connections made the train far less attractive compared to driving which was only £20 in fuel. I'll be WFH for the foreseeable future and I only really use the train for occasional trips into Glasgow.

I have said this previously and my thoughts are similar to yours. If the railway wants me back then it has to work for my custom. Telling me I have a duty to travel on the train certainly isn’t going to work. Neither is telling me things will be/are back to how they were pre-pandemic. They were pretty bad then and I have no desire to return to that level of poor service.

I did use the train today and unfortunately absolutely nothing has improved. There was a delay of 25 minutes to my train. A largish station with plenty of staff but no information at all regarding the delay (after departure time it just disappeared from the PIS) or whether the train would even turn up and the next one wasn’t for 2 hours. Also no explanation, apology or any announcements at all on the train.

 

[Robertj21a]

Try taking away the local rail service and I suspect you'll find its every bit as contentious as trying to close the local school or hospital.

Not as much as it would have done a few years ago. Supporters of Rail have dwindled and the industry needs to recognise the change, and react accordingly.

 

[squizzler]

Not as much as it would have done a few years ago. Supporters of Rail have dwindled and the industry needs to recognise the change, and react accordingly.

Dunno what your source is. From the outside there seems to be a lot of commitment: HS2 in progress, local line and station (re)openings, even electrification back on the agenda. Perhaps supporters seem less vocal because there is less need to protest in favour of train travel these days?

 

[yorksrob]

Not as much as it would have done a few years ago. Supporters of Rail have dwindled and the industry needs to recognise the change, and react accordingly.

I'm not sure that's true around here. Maybe proportionally for the big commuter lines around London which wouldn't be threatened anyway, but the regional railway seems as popular as ever at the moment.