Smart Motorways, is it time to end them?

[zwk500]

More than once I have encountered the left one or two lanes being closed. Almost always there is nothing there so I tend to stay in lane 1 and drive slower.

And this becomes a critical failure of the system - it (appears to) 'cry wolf' too often and people end up disregarding it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More than once I have encountered the left one or two lanes being closed. Almost always there is nothing there so I tend to stay in lane 1 and drive slower.

I can't understate how stupid and dangerous this is. DO NOT drive past a "red X" under any circumstances (you get plenty of warning to move right*). If you think this is OK please go and hand in your licence. You will kill someone.

I believe they are looking at turning on the cameras under red Xs to allow prosecution of people who drive through them. This cannot come soon enough.

* There is of course the rare edge case of it going up in front of you - in that case move right as soon as you possibly can.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2021 ==

And this becomes a critical failure of the system - it (appears to) 'cry wolf' too often and people end up disregarding it.

It does, but this needs to be strictly enforced with a dangerous driving charge. Do not do it. It's flashing reds so is equivalent to a level crossing - you wouldn't drive across one of those because "oh, the train usually takes a while to come", would you?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can't understate how stupid and dangerous this is. DO NOT drive past a "red X" under any circumstances (you get plenty of warning to move right). If you think this is OK please go and hand in your licence. You will kill someone.

I believe they are looking at turning on the cameras under red Xs to allow prosecution of people who drive through them. This cannot come soon enough.

And I will argue my point in court. If I am being swamped by people refusing to slow down I either speed up or get out of their way. I have to react to the danger that is apparent to ME not a danger that may not exist. Furthermore in the very unlikely event that there is an obstruction then, because I am driving slower, I have time to react to the obstruction.

My choice is break the speed limit or use a lane I should not. Given that the cameras do not yet get you for being in a closed lane I will therefore stick to the temporary speed limit. I do not want to break any rule but safety comes first and my safetey in more first !.

 

[zwk500]

I can't understate how stupid and dangerous this is. DO NOT drive past a "red X" under any circumstances (you get plenty of warning to move right*). If you think this is OK please go and hand in your licence.

+1

I believe they are looking at turning on the cameras under red Xs to allow prosecution of people who drive through them. This cannot come soon enough.

I am astonished this doesn't already happen

It does, but this needs to be strictly enforced with a dangerous driving charge. Do not do it. It's flashing reds so is equivalent to a level crossing - you wouldn't drive across one of those because "oh, the train usually takes a while to come", would you?

Sadly, it's all too apparent that some drivers consider the flashing reds of level crossings to be nothing more than an irritation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I will argue my point in court.

And you would lose. A red X with flashing reds is absolute - you MUST NOT enter. Same as a level crossing wig-wag.

If I am being swamped by people refusing to slow down I either speed up or get out of their way.

You must drive on different motorways to me. A lane closure is done miles in advance with stepped-down limits and "move rights" over about 6 gantries. People do slow and move over gradually.

I have to react to the danger that is apparent to ME not a danger that may not exist. Furthermore in the very unlikely event that there is an obstruction then, because I am driving slower, I have time to react to the obstruction.

That is not the point.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You must drive on different motorways to me. A lane closure is done miles in advance with stepped-down limits and "move rights" over about 6 gantries. People do slow and move over gradually.

That is what happened on that road at that time. I never said people speeding past me happens all the time. It was a gradual move over and it was remarkable how many people were moving over but not reducing speed.

It has occured to me that a possibility is that the signs were getting switched off behind me so people behind me would therefore catch up with me. Perhaps that is a failing of the systyem - how do they safely revert to normal ?. I was in lane 3 out of four doing 40mh and being swamped by people doing 70-80mph. Not a few pople but a lot. WHAT WOULD YOU DO ?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is what happened on that road at that time. I never said people speeding past me happens all the time. It was a gradual move over and it was remarkable how many people were moving over but not reducing speed.

It has occured to me that a possibility is that the signs were getting switched off behind me so people behind me would therefore catch up with me. I was in lane 3 out of four doing 40mh and being swamped by people doing 70-80mph. Not a few pople but a lot. WHAT WOULD YOU DO ?.

So you are not saying you drove past a red X, then, but rather concluded that the restriction had been removed behind you?

The system could do with being more clever in that case, by not removing the restriction (whatever it is) until the last car to pass it with it showing passes the next one. Or alternatively more repeaters so you can always see one.

What I would probably do is remain in lane 3 but keep up with the traffic in front which is in the same position.

I would not however drive past a red X because that shows the restriction to still be in place.

 

[zwk500]

WHAT WOULD YOU DO ?.

Let other people worry about their own problems. I would not breach the Red X. I might accelerate slightly to around 45mph, but I don't want a speeding ticket and somebody else's impatience is not my problem.

If traffic was coming past in lanes I believed closed, I would check the next gantry and obey the signal it presented.

 

[Bald Rick]

WHAT WOULD YOU DO ?.

Assuming this is the A1(M) heading south approaching the A14, with Red X on Lane 1 and 2, and 40 indicated on Lanes 3 and 4:

1) not in any circumstances enter the Red X Lanes. There could be an obstruction, potentially unseen (eg big pothole). If caught that’s a guaranteed driving offence, with no option of a fixed penalty or ’Awareness’ course.

2) stay in Lane 3 or 4

3) travel at around 60mph, keeping a sharp lookout for slowing traffic.


3) may seem a little unusual. But on this stretch if the A1 there is no variable speed limit, and the 40 indicated on the overhead gantries is advisory, not mandatory and not enforceable. (Also, no cameras).

 

[Robertj21a]

And I will argue my point in court. If I am being swamped by people refusing to slow down I either speed up or get out of their way. I have to react to the danger that is apparent to ME not a danger that may not exist. Furthermore in the very unlikely event that there is an obstruction then, because I am driving slower, I have time to react to the obstruction.

My choice is break the speed limit or use a lane I should not. Given that the cameras do not yet get you for being in a closed lane I will therefore stick to the temporary speed limit. I do not want to break any rule but safety comes first and my safetey in more first !.

I think you should rethink all that. You're in danger of nearly causing an accident - just like a similar idiot I saw on the M1 recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming this is the A1(M) heading south approaching the A14, with Red X on Lane 1 and 2, and 40 indicated on Lanes 3 and 4:

1) not in any circumstances enter the Red X Lanes. There could be an obstruction, potentially unseen (eg big pothole). If caught that’s a guaranteed driving offence, with no option of a fixed penalty or ’Awareness’ course.

2) stay in Lane 3 or 4

3) travel at around 60mph, keeping a sharp lookout for slowing traffic.


3) may seem a little unusual. But on this stretch if the A1 there is no variable speed limit, and the 40 indicated on the overhead gantries is advisory, not mandatory and not enforceable. (Also, no cameras).

It does seem usual for advisory limits that the lower the number the more cautious you need to be rather than necessarily slowing down to that number, which could cause an accident because so few people do. Advisory 40 is taken by most to mean "I will likely have to stop soon".

Mandatory 40 is generally respected, though.

 

[skyhigh]

And I will argue my point in court. If I am being swamped by people refusing to slow down I either speed up or get out of their way. I have to react to the danger that is apparent to ME not a danger that may not exist. Furthermore in the very unlikely event that there is an obstruction then, because I am driving slower, I have time to react to the obstruction.

My choice is break the speed limit or use a lane I should not. Given that the cameras do not yet get you for being in a closed lane I will therefore stick to the temporary speed limit. I do not want to break any rule but safety comes first and my safetey in more first !.

This is clearly wrong. Never ever travel in a lane that is indicated closed with a red X. That's basically the same as driving down the hard shoulder of a normal motorway - it's not for use but you can't see any obvious obstruction. Slow down, use your hazard lights to indicate that if it makes you feel safer, and stay in the open lanes.

I speak from experience of working on the motorway under a red X while in the police and nearly getting flattened by a motorist who couldn't see why they couldn't use that lane. It's a daft idea.

 

[AM9]

More than once I have encountered the left one or two lanes being closed. Almost always there is nothing there so I tend to stay in lane 1 and drive slower.

On one bit of smart motorway A1 South approaching A14 iirc. Two left lanes closed (red cross above so legally binding) and 40mph limit. I pulled over to lane three and quickly collected a queue of traffic getting round me doing a lot nearer to 70mph. It was terrifying. I thought I must have mis-read the signs but my passenger assuered me I was correct. I ended up going into the closed lane 2 but sticking to 40mph. We never saw any obstruction. Later that night on the M25 another set of restrictions just ceased with no road clear indication. I sped up to 70mph once I was sure no one else was doing 40.

I am completely onvinced that apart from raising awareness to a potential hazard the smart motorway technoligy is inveriably crying wolf and so is best taken with a pinch of salt oterwise it can be dangerous in its own right. If only it was working properly then it should be a benefit. I feel that the tecnology is just there as an excuse to allow the removal of the hard shoulder and no care has been taken to see if it works properly.

I must say there are stretches of the A1 that terrify me with no hard shoulder and, as others have said, no smart technology.

Best of luck telling a magistrate that you took the lane closure instruction with a "pinch of salt". It's not there to be questioned just because drivers don't see any (in their view) valid reason. Also, pointing out that other vehicles were going faster than a mandated speed limit is no defence for a speeding charge.

 

[Roast Veg]

But on this stretch if the A1 there is no variable speed limit, and the 40 indicated on the overhead gantries is advisory, not mandatory and not enforceable. (Also, no cameras).

I passed my driving test this year, and I have no idea how to differentiate between an advisory speed limit and a mandatory one on a smart motorway.

 

[zwk500]

I passed my driving test this year, and I have no idea how to differentiate between an advisory speed limit and a mandatory one on a smart motorway.

Mandatory Speed limits are inside a red ring. Advisory speed limits will display just a number with flashing orange lights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mandatory Speed limits are inside a red ring. Advisory speed limits will display just a number with flashing orange lights.

Indeed. In essence a mandatory speed limit is always inside a red ring, be that on a smart motorway or on signage. If you see one represented differently, e.g. "Max speed 20" as you get for loose chippings or inside a black or green ring as you sometimes get, these are advisory.

 

[thejuggler]

A few months ago I encountered red X on inside and middle lane. I pulled over, the number who didn't was frightening.

The reason was a large obstruction in the road and the Highway Officers had to enter the motorway to get it moved. The obstruction was after a bend so no way of seeing the problem well ahead and there is no doubt those officers were at a high risk of injury or death as a few drivers made no attempt to move over until they had seen proof of a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A few months ago I encountered red X on inside and middle lane. I pulled over, the number who didn't was frightening.

The reason was a large obstruction in the road and the Highway Officers had to enter the motorway to get it moved. The obstruction was after a bend so no way of seeing the problem well ahead and there is no doubt those officers were at a high risk of injury or death as a few drivers made no attempt to move over until they had seen proof of a problem.

One thing that helps is putting up the reason for the red X on the text signs - e.g. "WARNING LARGE POTHOLE" or "STRANDED VEHICLE".

 

[zwk500]

One thing that helps is putting up the reason for the red X on the text signs - e.g. "WARNING LARGE POTHOLE" or "STRANDED VEHICLE".

And then the warning isn't taken down after the obstruction is cleared, so drivers don't see the obstruction and disregard future signs.

Easier way (and closer to the minds of the drivers concerned) is to hurt their wallets. Red X = Fine + 3 penalty points every time will help compliance

 

[Bletchleyite]

Easier way (and closer to the minds of the drivers concerned) is to hurt their wallets. Red X = Fine + 3 penalty points every time will help compliance

I believe that is the plan and it can't come soon enough. Same at every level crossing would be good.

 

[zwk500]

I believe that is the plan and it can't come soon enough. Same at every level crossing would be good.

Agreed, although on Smart Motorways the cameras are already in place, whereas at LX's it may be quite expensive to install and maintain a camera suitable for evidence.

 

[Ediswan]

DO NOT drive past a "red X" under any circumstances

Always be wary of absolute statements. I once found the M25 in the small of hours of a Sunday morning with matrix signs saying along the lines of "Emergency sign testing, all lanes remain open". Shortly followed by what little traffic there was doing 70mph under red X signs. It is not clear what would have been done if there had been an incident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Always be wary of absolute statements. I once found the M25 in the small of hours of a Sunday morning with matrix signs saying along the lines of "Emergency sign testing, all lanes remain open". Shortly followed by what little traffic there was doing 70mph under red X signs. It is not clear what would have been done if there had been an incident.

That in my opinion is not a red X...well, it is, but it is not one in a legal sense.

It's in essence the same as the "when directed to do so by a constable in uniform" defence.

 

[Bald Rick]

I passed my driving test this year, and I have no idea how to differentiate between an advisory speed limit and a mandatory one on a smart motorway.

I’m surprised you didn’t learn this in your lessons.

Circular signs are mandatory (also octagonal in the case of stop signs!)

Triangles are warnings

Anything else is advisory.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So you are not saying you drove past a red X, then, but rather concluded that the restriction had been removed behind you?

The system could do with being more clever in that case, by not removing the restriction (whatever it is) until the last car to pass it with it showing passes the next one. Or alternatively more repeaters so you can always see one.

What I would probably do is remain in lane 3 but keep up with the traffic in front which is in the same position.

I would not however drive past a red X because that shows the restriction to still be in place.

I did not want to break the speed limit. In the comfort of my own home I then wondered if those behind me had not seen the same sign as me because possibly the restriction had been removed.

Let other people worry about their own problems. I would not breach the Red X. I might accelerate slightly to around 45mph, but I don't want a speeding ticket and somebody else's impatience is not my problem.

If traffic was coming past in lanes I believed closed, I would check the next gantry and obey the signal it presented.

I moved back into lane 1 as soon as the next blank gantry appeared but we kept a look out incase that gantry had failed.

Assuming this is the A1(M) heading south approaching the A14, with Red X on Lane 1 and 2, and 40 indicated on Lanes 3 and 4:

1) not in any circumstances enter the Red X Lanes. There could be an obstruction, potentially unseen (eg big pothole). If caught that’s a guaranteed driving offence, with no option of a fixed penalty or ’Awareness’ course.

2) stay in Lane 3 or 4

3) travel at around 60mph, keeping a sharp lookout for slowing traffic.


3) may seem a little unusual. But on this stretch if the A1 there is no variable speed limit, and the 40 indicated on the overhead gantries is advisory, not mandatory and not enforceable. (Also, no cameras).

I think you should rethink all that. You're in danger of nearly causing an accident - just like a similar idiot I saw on the M1 recently.

I had a choice between going through a red X and breaking the speed limit. Did not feel like I had any other choice.

I must admit, having never had a driving offence, I do not know the relative merits of which offence causes the least damage to the licence/wallet. I just go on not breaking the rules - which seems to be getting harder and harder as there are more rules !. I know people who treat speeding offences as a hazard of driving and know where the cameras are !. I prefer to believe the speed limit is there for a reason and stick to it.

I have always understood what the red X is for and also the version with the red light flashing (left to right iirc). I have never before knowingly gone through one but I have watched others go through. I was very worried about having to return to lane 2 BUT this time I was under pressure to get out of the way.

Some of my logic was that if I had misread the signs I would be better off going slowly in lane 1 or 2 out of the way BUT keeping an eye out just in case.

I had to weigh up the possibility that there really was no hazard in lane one or two (as is usual) against the very obvious hazard I was part of by causing an obstruction in lane 3 to others who were going a lot faster than myself. I had to make a decision while I was driving not later on whilst sitting in my arm chair at home. My passenger agreed. I also had to assume that I was going slowly enough and cautiously enough that I could stop in time and I had my passenger watch out as well.

@Bald Rick - I now wonder if it was an advisory speed limit. I cannot recall but I thought it was legally binding (I know these have the red circle surround) but if it was advisory then it would (sadly) explain why the vast majority of cars were still going a lot faster than me. I really was the odd one out so much so I wanted to believe I had mis understood the signs but my passenger assured me it was 40mph and the left two lanes were shut. Looking in the mirror was very alarming - I was collecting a lot of cars behind me that were manoevering late. So my instinct was to get out of the way. My passenger who is also a driver agreed I had to move over - to me it was the lesser of two evils.

If the signs were generally more believable then I would have felt more inclined to stick at 40 mph in lane 3 and ignore the risk. Then anyway perhaps there would have been less risk as others might have obeyed. That is my point - the signs are so unreliable people tend to doubt/ignore them. I prefer to stick to the rules even if I am the odd one out BUT in this case it felt very dangerous to do so.

To this day I am none the wiser as there was nothing in either of lanes one or two.

 

[Bald Rick]

I had a choice between going through a red X and breaking the speed limit. Did I have any other choice ?.

This wasn’t your choice. As above, it was not a mandatory speed limit.

But in a hypothetical scenario where it was mandatory (and this does happen, a similar scenario has happened to me: your choice was between ignoring the red X, or keeping (approximately) to the speed limit. What other drivers do behind you is not your problem, so long as you have sufficient space to stop in front of you.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This wasn’t your choice. As above, it was not a mandatory speed limit.

But in a hypothetical scenario where it was mandatory (and this does happen, a similar scenario has happened to me: your choice was between ignoring the red X, or keeping (approximately) to the speed limit. What other drivers do behind you is not your problem, so long as you have sufficient space to stop in front of you.

Well jury is out on wether it was mandatory as I only think it was that stretch.

Trouble is I was there and I was very scared !. I could not just go with the (70mph) flow. It is the sort of situation where an experienced driver might accelerate out of trouble or at least speed up - but not these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well jury is out on wether it was mandatory as I only think it was that stretch.

Trouble is I was there and I was very scared !. I could not just go with the (70mph) flow. It is the sort of situation where an experienced driver might accelerate out of trouble or at least speed up - but not these days.

Did it have a red circle around it? If not it was not a speed limit.

 

[Bald Rick]

Did it have a red circle around it? If not it was not a speed limit.

On that stretch of the A1 they can’t have a circle round, as the signs aren’t configured to display one.

 

[Ianno87]

I’m surprised you didn’t learn this in your lessons.

Circular signs are mandatory (also octagonal in the case of stop signs!)

Triangles are warnings

Anything else is advisory.

I don't recall my instructor going over this (but I'm a smarty pants who knew anyway )

I don't even think it's covered in the theory test, and basically relies on drivers actually sitting down to read the Highway Code....