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Could we see a more intensive service through Castlefield with more electrification?

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Gareth

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Longer term, we should be looking at a 12tph service with a uniform electric fleet, complete with platform edge gates for the Castlefield stations. This will mean electrifying the relevant lines and finding a lasting solution for longer distance services such as Liverpool-Sheffield.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Longer term, we should be looking at a 12tph service with a uniform electric fleet, complete with platform edge gates for the Castlefield stations. This will mean electrifying the relevant lines and finding a lasting solution for longer distance services such as Liverpool-Sheffield.

Though you could to some extent achieve that now - 3-car 195/331 are identical other than the means of powering them, which was the base of my "S-Bahn" suggestion to improve not only the service but also Picc 13/14.
 

Purple Orange

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Longer term, we should be looking at a 12tph service with a uniform electric fleet, complete with platform edge gates for the Castlefield stations. This will mean electrifying the relevant lines and finding a lasting solution for longer distance services such as Liverpool-Sheffield.

Though you could to some extent achieve that now - 3-car 195/331 are identical other than the means of powering them, which was the base of my "S-Bahn" suggestion to improve not only the service but also Picc 13/14.

That’s the ideal outcome, but homes need to be found for the 5 long distance services from North Wales, Nottingham, Cleethorpes, Scotland and Leeds. Windermere could be included in that list that needs to shift too.
 

4-SUB 4732

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That’s the ideal outcome, but homes need to be found for the 5 long distance services from North Wales, Nottingham, Cleethorpes, Scotland and Leeds. Windermere could be included in that list that needs to shift too.
Liverpool - Nottingham and Cleethorpes is fine if it’s 6/185.

Scotland and Cumbria is an easy diversion to Victoria; and the TPEs can go to Lime Street / Piccadilly shed / Victoria bay from the Huddersfield direction. No need for Ordsall.
 

Bletchleyite

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That’s the ideal outcome, but homes need to be found for the 5 long distance services from North Wales, Nottingham, Cleethorpes, Scotland and Leeds. Windermere could be included in that list that needs to shift too.

If 195s are allowed as well as 331s, then you could transfer the Cleethorpes and Nottingham services to Northern, and Barrow/Windermere could continue.
 

Purple Orange

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Liverpool - Nottingham and Cleethorpes is fine if it’s 6/185.

Scotland and Cumbria is an easy diversion to Victoria; and the TPEs can go to Lime Street / Piccadilly shed / Victoria bay from the Huddersfield direction. No need for Ordsall.
That means missing the opportunity to run a metro service at all 5 central Manchester stations and a trick is being missed. Post TRU, there will be capacity for 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers between Leeds & Manchester, plus 2 Stalybridge stoppers. Therefore run the 2 Stalybridge stoppers, the 2 semi-fasts and 2 Huddersfield stoppers (possibly from Leeds by this point) through Victoria, calling at Salford Central P4/5, Deansgate, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly P13 & P14, before calling at all stops to the airport. Split the 4 fasts between Lime Street & Piccadilly.
 

4-SUB 4732

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That means missing the opportunity to run a metro service at all 5 central Manchester stations and a trick is being missed. Post TRU, there will be capacity for 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers between Leeds & Manchester, plus 2 Stalybridge stoppers. Therefore run the 2 Stalybridge stoppers, the 2 semi-fasts and 2 Huddersfield stoppers (possibly from Leeds by this point) through Victoria, calling at Salford Central P4/5, Deansgate, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly P13 & P14, before calling at all stops to the airport. Split the 4 fasts between Lime Street & Piccadilly.
So you want all 8 services from the Stalybridge area to run via Victoria and Ordsall to Airport? That’s terrible for Rochdale, Liverpool, Preston etc.
 

Purple Orange

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So you want all 8 services from the Stalybridge area to run via Victoria and Ordsall to Airport? That’s terrible for Rochdale, Liverpool, Preston etc.

No, that would be 6 tph. I did mention Lime Street. Rochdale have never gone around the chord either. However whatever the start destinations are, if there is a 10 minute interval at all 5 stations, whatever service you use to come in to Manchester at whatever station, there is a metro frequency service to transfer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

One more thought to add, the northern hub project was intended to accommodate 14 tph. Assuming 4 tph makes a basic turn-up-and-go service level (like Merseyrail), could a service pattern whereby you have:
  • Line A: 4 tph Airport - Stalybridge
  • Line B: 4 tph Airport - Liverpool
  • Line C: 4 tph Rochdale - Preston
Then 6 further services through Oxford Rd and 8 further services through Victoria?
 
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furnessvale

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Longer term, we should be looking at a 12tph service with a uniform electric fleet, complete with platform edge gates for the Castlefield stations. This will mean electrifying the relevant lines and finding a lasting solution for longer distance services such as Liverpool-Sheffield.
You also need acceptable alternatives for freight.
 

zwk500

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You also need acceptable alternatives for freight.
Intermodals could be kept away by reconfiguring Trafford Park to access to/from the west, and reinstating the line through Culceth, with a new connection onto the Chat Moss. Would be very pricey, as it would include gauge clearing the CLC line, remodelling Trafford Park, and potentially 4-tracking Crewe to Warrington.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's only one path per hour, isn't it? If so it isn't really that much of an issue. It's overcrowded, end doored passenger services (e.g. the Liv-Notts) which pose the greatest issue. Even changing the Liv-Notts to be 6-car with doors at thirds (be that 185s or 195s) would make a huge difference to its dwells.
 

Gareth

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I'd say if you want a fairly intensive 12tph commuter rail service, even one freight path is somewhat significant.
 

furnessvale

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Intermodals could be kept away by reconfiguring Trafford Park to access to/from the west, and reinstating the line through Culceth, with a new connection onto the Chat Moss. Would be very pricey, as it would include gauge clearing the CLC line, remodelling Trafford Park, and potentially 4-tracking Crewe to Warrington.
Indeed, which is why the word "acceptable" was in my post.

Acceptable for the FOCs, but also for the potential cost/benefit of providing alternatives.
 

Purple Orange

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Not strictly true as the first services to use it were Leeds - Manchester Oxford Road Northern services.

Well i think it is fair to say that Rochdale services shoudn't be crossing over on to the chord. Keep them seperate and running through P5&6 at Victoria then on to Salford Central and Salford Crescent.

In any event, much work needs to take place in order to enable a simplified network.
 

tbtc

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We could have a much more intense service through Castlefield - look at how Thameslink manages dozens of services an hour on a two track line - look at the proposed frequencies for Crossrail - but these lines through London are kept simple through the "core" section. And, importantly, no freight through Thameslink/ Crossrail!

Whereas Manchester (or rather, the towns near Manchester) seem more focussed on lots of direct links (everywhere to Castlefield, everywhere to the Airport, various cross-Manchester services like the Stockport line to the Bolton line, plus the long distance Liverpool - Norwich service)

13/14 are messier than stations in the Crossrail core will be because they have a range of people wanting a range of trains (e.g. you may have a service to Glasgow/ Southport/ Middlesbrough/ Llandudno within a short space of time, so lots of different types of people all cramming onto the platform whilst they wait rather than being able to board the first train that arrives)

We don't need electrification to improve the number of services that can run reliably through Castlefield, we just need someone to take a tough decision and upset various places by removing their Castlefield link

For example, if you wanted a simple twelve trains per hour you'd need to accept everything stopping at all of the stations between Piccadilly/ Oxford Road/ Deansgate/ Salford Crescent/ Victoria that they serve, since the kind of "metro" frequencies require "metro" stopping patterns - we're not going to be able to arrange a uniform frequency when trains have different stopping patterns, so every Castlefield service stops at all stations it passes in central Manchester (and Salford). Ideally I'd suggest that everything that goes to the Airport serves all stops on the Airport line too, to keep things uniform.

I guess as a simple starting point (to use as a baseline to argue against) you could have six on the Bolton corridor and six on the Ordsall Chord to Victoria - but then that leaves Liverpool without a service to Piccadilly (and four trains per hour using the flat crossing into the terminal platform at Oxford Road will eat into capacity for services to Piccadilly)

You want to add in some Liverpool trains to maintain the Piccadilly link? Okay, but there's not going to be six CLC services per hour (the line struggles to cope with four), so does that mean four on the CLC, four to Bolton and four round the Chord to Victoria?

But now with three different destinations, things are getting a bit messier, a uniform five minute service pattern is going to be a lot harder to arrange (look at the badly spaced services on the Airport branch to see what happens when you try to cram lots of long distance trains from a diverse number of starting points down a two track corridor)

You can't abandon the Ordsall Chord (however much people regret it, it'd be political suicide to spend best part of a hundred million pounds and then leave it unused), so does the Bolton line miss out? That'd be cutting the Windsor Link and meaning no service from north of Manchester to south of Manchester (other than the TPE services from Leeds to the Airport)

And what about the eastern side of Castlefield? Twelve per hour to the Airport would be overkill (services only had an average of thirtysomething passengers per service pre-Covid, so increasing the number of trains will be spreading those passengers even thinner, assuming that flights go back to the demand they had). But crossing several services per hour onto the Stockport lines is going to create a lot of conflicts given the flat junctions.

It'd be politically unacceptable to remove another long distance service from Liverpool (given local 'concerns'), but then it'd be politically unacceptable to add an extra ten/ fifteen minutes onto the Sheffield - central Manchester journey times by diverting services north east from Stockport towards Ashton, so I think that you have to accept a Sheffield - Castlefield - Liverpool service (I'd be fine with all Sheffield services terminating in the main shed - I think that the through service is of more benefit to Liverpool than to Sheffield - but the two half hourly services tie together pretty well in terms of stock/frequency/ unelectrified lines, so I can see logic in a half hourly service)

So, with that in mind, the only thing that keeps things fairly "simple" through Castlefield and maintains a space for freight as well as not removing a long distance service from Liverpool would be ten passenger trains per hour, eight of which run all stops from the Airport to Deansgate and two of which are from Sheffield to Liverpool:

  • 4x Airport - Deansgate - Bolton corridor (Blackpool etc)
  • 4x Airport - Deansgate - Ordsall Chord (TPE to Leeds etc)
  • 2x Sheffield - Deansgate - Liverpool (starting at Nottingham, Cleethorpes etc)
  • 2x Oxford Road - Liverpool stoppers
  • Matching electrified routes to electrified routes to minimise the number of DMUs under the wires
  • Try to simplify other service patterns through Manchester and avoid conflicts, e.g. the Atherton services come through Salford Central and into the northern (high numbered) platforms at Victoria so should continue on the northern side towards Rochdale whereas services from Chat Moss would be using the southern (low numbered) platforms at Victoria and therefore continue on the southern side towards Stalybridge (or terminating at Newton Heath) - avoid conflict where possible - you can get a lot more services along a particular stretch of track when you minimise the number of conflicting movements
The main benefits being:

  • An easy to understand map of services through central Manchester
  • A "turn up and go" frequency where possible (eight trains per hour from the Airport to Deansgate is pretty much Metrolink frequency)
  • Lots of connections per hour at Victoria/ Salford for other lines wanting a Castlefield/ Airport service
  • Liverpool gets to keep long distance services
It'd annoy a few people in far flung places, it's far from perfect, but it seems the only way to achieve a Castlefield service that is as simple and frequent and reliable as it can be given the diverse range of potential destinations. Put it this way, there's a reason why Crossrail is going to be a fairly simple/ boring "metro" line, rather than having platforms in central London trying to cope with a combination of hourly services, e.g. Cardiff to Norwich followed by a Heathrow to Cambridge followed by an Oxford to Kent service... that'd be a nightmare of different routes/ passengers - bound to become unreliable and see crowds of different people all trying to use the same platform for a huge number of far flung destinations. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

(obviously all of this would change if we found hundreds of millions of pounds to electrify various lines/ build grade separated junctions/ add in two more island platforms at Piccadilly etc, but I'm trying to focus in terms of what's possible with what we have rather than getting the crayons out!)
 

6Gman

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Intermodals could be kept away by reconfiguring Trafford Park to access to/from the west, and reinstating the line through Culceth, with a new connection onto the Chat Moss. Would be very pricey, as it would include gauge clearing the CLC line, remodelling Trafford Park, and potentially 4-tracking Crewe to Warrington.
As in VERY pricey!
 

nr758123

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Scotland and Cumbria is an easy diversion to Victoria; and the TPEs can go to Lime Street / Piccadilly shed / Victoria bay from the Huddersfield direction. No need for Ordsall.
The Victoria bays are too short to be of any real use for any of the current services on the Standedge route. None of TPEs rolling stock other than a single class 185 will go in there.
 

ac6000cw

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Intermodals could be kept away by reconfiguring Trafford Park to access to/from the west, and reinstating the line through Culceth, with a new connection onto the Chat Moss. Would be very pricey, as it would include gauge clearing the CLC line, remodelling Trafford Park, and potentially 4-tracking Crewe to Warrington.
For intermodals, couldn't you just move them to a new terminal elsewhere, convenient for road and rail access e.g. maybe in the Warrington area?
 

Fawkes Cat

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Longer term, we should be looking at a 12tph service with a uniform electric fleet, complete with platform edge gates for the Castlefield stations
For example, if you wanted a simple twelve trains per hour you'd need to accept everything stopping at all of the stations between Piccadilly/ Oxford Road/ Deansgate/ Salford Crescent/ Victoria that they serve,


Just to pick up on one point, if the 12tph (or even 8tph which this seems to have been bid down to) pattern calling everywhere was obtained, would there be a need for platform edge gates? With a train every five minutes from any of the platform faces, wouldn't the services be frequent enough to avoid platform congestion?
 

Bletchleyite

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Just to pick up on one point, if the 12tph (or even 8tph which this seems to have been bid down to) pattern calling everywhere was obtained, would there be a need for platform edge gates? With a train every five minutes from any of the platform faces, wouldn't the services be frequent enough to avoid platform congestion?

Thameslink handles far higher passenger volumes without them so they are not needed (and would also reduce flexibility).
 

Glenn1969

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No, that would be 6 tph. I did mention Lime Street. Rochdale have never gone around the chord either. However whatever the start destinations are, if there is a 10 minute interval at all 5 stations, whatever service you use to come in to Manchester at whatever station, there is a metro frequency service to transfer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

One more thought to add, the northern hub project was intended to accommodate 14 tph. Assuming 4 tph makes a basic turn-up-and-go service level (like Merseyrail), could a service pattern whereby you have:
  • Line A: 4 tph Airport - Stalybridge
  • Line B: 4 tph Airport - Liverpool
  • Line C: 4 tph Rochdale - Preston
Then 6 further services through Oxford Rd and 8 further services through Victoria?
Actually Rochdale went hourly round the chord in 2018 but only to Ox Rd. It was supposed to be extended to Picc/Airport but got canned instead
 

tbtc

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Just to pick up on one point, if the 12tph (or even 8tph which this seems to have been bid down to) pattern calling everywhere was obtained, would there be a need for platform edge gates? With a train every five minutes from any of the platform faces, wouldn't the services be frequent enough to avoid platform congestion?

I don't think edge gates are needed, other than on the London (and Glasgow) Underground where you have

  • a uniform type of stock (so everything will be the same length with the same doors)
  • electrified tracks (so someone falling onto the tracks may be electrocuted)
  • wind problems (i.e. the energy "wasted" by pushing through the air, and the unpleasant wind that circulates at stations when a train is coming, scattering debris around)
  • a pretty simple service pattern with everything running the same way (okay, on the Jubilee some trains may terminate short of Stanmore/Stratford, but generally 99% of people will be able to board the first train that arrives

Manchester doesn't have those problems, so I think they'd be a waste, and would restrict future stock orders (e.g. if everything that stopped at Deansgate/ Oxford Road/ the island platforms at Piccadilly had to have exactly the same door configuration then that limits diversions/ substitutions/ future orders of stock).

A better option would be something like Sheffield Supertram where there's something on the platform that shows you were the doors should open, so people know where to queue (but it wouldn't restrict other trains from serving those platforms)

However, a bigger issue at Castlefield IMHO is the diversity of services - looking at 13/14 you can have a Liverpool service then a Windermere, then a Chester, then a Blackpool, then a Redcar in less than twenty minutes (based on the current Covid timetable, I don't know if there are any services that have been thinned out) - if I were travelling all the way to Teesside then I'd probably want to ensure that I arrived at the station with ten/twenty minutes to spare to be on the safe side, but I'd be jostling with passengers for Merseyside and the Lake District and Conwy (presumably the Chester service would be running through to Llandudno were it not for the pandemic) - that's a lot of people for very different directions all sharing the same platform.

If you sort out the variety of destinations then the it'll a lot easier to manage those numbers of people (look at how an Underground train can soak up a hundred people from the platform)
 

The Planner

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For intermodals, couldn't you just move them to a new terminal elsewhere, convenient for road and rail access e.g. maybe in the Warrington area?
You could but who is paying for it? FOCs arent going to and you still have Port Salford in the mix.
 

Greybeard33

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So, with that in mind, the only thing that keeps things fairly "simple" through Castlefield and maintains a space for freight as well as not removing a long distance service from Liverpool would be ten passenger trains per hour, eight of which run all stops from the Airport to Deansgate and two of which are from Sheffield to Liverpool:

  • 4x Airport - Deansgate - Bolton corridor (Blackpool etc)
  • 4x Airport - Deansgate - Ordsall Chord (TPE to Leeds etc)
  • 2x Sheffield - Deansgate - Liverpool (starting at Nottingham, Cleethorpes etc)
  • 2x Oxford Road - Liverpool stoppers
  • Matching electrified routes to electrified routes to minimise the number of DMUs under the wires
  • Try to simplify other service patterns through Manchester and avoid conflicts, e.g. the Atherton services come through Salford Central and into the northern (high numbered) platforms at Victoria so should continue on the northern side towards Rochdale whereas services from Chat Moss would be using the southern (low numbered) platforms at Victoria and therefore continue on the southern side towards Stalybridge (or terminating at Newton Heath) - avoid conflict where possible - you can get a lot more services along a particular stretch of track when you minimise the number of conflicting movements
By my count you have 12tph there not 10tph! And 4tph on the Ordsall Chord would mean ramming far too much into Victoria from the west. But that aside, it is not far from what is actually planned to happen in the December 2022 timetable change, under the Manchester Recovery Task Force Option B+ timetable. Except that there will be only 1tph on the Ordsall Chord (the Airport - Redcar/Saltburn) and the CLC stoppers will be split at Warrington Central, with the second tph being peak only on the Manchester side. Plus 1tph Airport - N Wales, 1tph Airport - Liverpool stopper via Chat Moss, and 1tph Oxford Road - Southport (to appease the vociferous Sandgrounders). 11tph + 1tph freight in the standard hour.

Far too sensible to be entertained on a Speculative Ideas thread!
 

tbtc

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By my count you have 12tph there not 10tph!

Apologies, I should have stipulated that it was "ten plus two Oxford Road terminators"- I think that four per hour on the Warrington Central line is about right (whether they all run west of Warrington or not) but what do we do with them at the Manchester end? It's a mess - if you run four through to Piccadilly/ beyond then you restrict the service from other lines, plus you have the problem that the Airport (the natural place for most Castlefield services to end up) is electrified so you'd be running DMUs a fair way under the wires.

I'd like to have a simple balanced service through Castlefield, but I think that there needs to be a half hourly Liverpool - Warrington service running through Castlefield too - I think you can fit that in between an "every eight minutes" Metro service but not within anything more frequent, so that kind of restricts the pattern (plus anything over eight trains per hour to the Airport would be overkill - eight is still more than the passenger numbers require but it's probably better to send an extra couple of trains an hour down there than introduce more conflicts with the Stockport line

Maybe when Wigan -Bolton is electrified, and assuming that the service patterns are simplified (EMUs to Wigan via Bolton, DMUs to Southport via Atherton) then we could put 769s on the CLC services (since it's wired up at both ends), but I can't see any further electrification happening beyond that which has already been committed to

Whatever is chosen is bound to upset a few people, the only question is who'll moan the most?
 

cle

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For the 8tph to airport, what would folks recommend for stopping patterns on the airport line?
4tph fast and 4tph all stations? Skip stops (A and B patterns perhaps, with a standard 1-2 calls before Airport, nothing fast)? All 8tph all stations?

Boosting the intra-Manchester usage of this line would be a much bigger benefit against adding 3-5 mins to an occasional airport passenger's journey.
 

Bletchleyite

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For the 8tph to airport, what would folks recommend for stopping patterns on the airport line?
4tph fast and 4tph all stations? Skip stops (A and B patterns perhaps, with a standard 1-2 calls before Airport, nothing fast)? All 8tph all stations?

Boosting the intra-Manchester usage of this line would be a much bigger benefit against adding 3-5 mins to an occasional airport passenger's journey.

8 all stations would be an "as good as Metrolink" type arrangement which would increase usage. Skip stopping complicates things, so otherwise "4 fast 4 slow" is what I'd go for, hopefully at clean 15 minute intervals so like Merseyrail you basically only need to know one number and be able to add 15 to it.
 

HS2isgood

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I think, like nearly everyone here, that the best solution for Castlefield, pre-HS2 and NPR, is a simpler pattern and no LD trains. The Barrow/Windermere/Holyhead/Scotland services are better off in Manchester Victoria, just because they are disruptive in Castlefield. The CLC needs 4 tph (2 fast, 2 slow, post-NPR all would be slow) to either Picadilly or Oxford Road, and IMO Southport and Blackpool North (or Wigan NW via Bolton to have more electrics) are the best use of 4 tph via Bolton. An additional 2 tph could run through the Ordsall Chord, maybe the Hull and the Huddersfield terminators?

In the long-term, though, I'd get rid of all freight and all 2-cars through Castlefield.
 
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