Lumo - new Open Access operator on the East Coast Main Line

[Killingworth]

Ive looked and it has

With 5 trains each way, although still looks like a work in progress.

 

[JonathanH]

Might Avanti try compete fare wise?

No, that is pretty unlikely with a) Lumo only running twice daily, b) the competition not being direct to Glasgiw and c) the DfT wanting to maintain its fare revenue.

 

[43066]

Whether or not many people use it, only cash is legal tender and thus must be accepted to settle a debt. (If cash is refused the debt becomes unenforcable). On buses and trains where you pay before, or at the point of, boarding, they can refuse to let you on if you haven't got the right card/pass even if you have cash (as they do on London buses) as no debt has been incurred. (In the same way a cafeteria can refuse cash but a restaurant msut let you settle the bill by cash)

But if you have boarded a train without a ticket then a debt is incurred as soon as it starts to move. I don't see how they can refuse to settle that debt if you offer to do so by cash. Possibly the Ts & Cs allow them to take your details so they can call in the debt later, but it would then still be necessary that it can, if you choose, be settled in cash.

I think you’re confusing debts resulting from court judgments with payments made for goods/services. Businesses are quite within their rights only to take card payments if they wish.

In any case it will be physically impossible to pay in cash if the customer ambassador has no ability to carry cash on their employer’s behalf and is not authorised to sell tickets to customers other than for card payments.

 

[deltic]

Whether or not many people use it, only cash is legal tender and thus must be accepted to settle a debt. (If cash is refused the debt becomes unenforcable). On buses and trains where you pay before, or at the point of, boarding, they can refuse to let you on if you haven't got the right card/pass even if you have cash (as they do on London buses) as no debt has been incurred. (In the same way a cafeteria can refuse cash but a restaurant msut let you settle the bill by cash)

But if you have boarded a train without a ticket then a debt is incurred as soon as it starts to move. I don't see how they can refuse to settle that debt if you offer to do so by cash. Possibly the Ts & Cs allow them to take your details so they can call in the debt later, but it would then still be necessary that it can, if you choose, be settled in cash.

Not sure that is correct - my, possibly wrong, understanding is that it applies only if you have a court awarded debt against you, you may settle that debt in legal tender. Restaurants do not have to accept cash and indeed many do not.

 

[ServerHoster]

There's now a timetable on site.
https://www.lumo.co.uk/our-timetable

 

[Killingworth]

Most people are fully familiar with Advance fares these days. Miss your train? Pay again.

Most people on here, probably true. There are very many more who use trains very rarely. To them the entire railway operational system and fares structure is bewildering. They'd only use a train as a last resort. Add to that the numbers who've got used to working most days from home. If you use a TOC like C2C where there's only one operator and route it's easy. If you're making a journey with 3 or more possible operators with overlapping routes to investigate it's more difficult.

However that's a discussion for another thread. As it stands Lumo go to places I may want to go, but not from places I'd be likely to want to join.

 

[jon0844]

Most people on here, probably true. There are very many more who use trains very rarely. To them the entire railway operational system and fares structure is bewildering. They'd only use a train as a last resort. Add to that the numbers who've got used to working most days from home. If you use a TOC like C2C where there's only one operator and route it's easy. If you're making a journey with 3 or more possible operators with overlapping routes to investigate it's more difficult.

However that's a discussion for another thread. As it stands Lumo go to places I ay want to go, but not from places I'd be likely to want to join.

I think most people probably understand the concept of a ticket that's tied to a particular time/event, as long as it's made clear enough throughout the booking process (and especially at the point where you are asked to pay). Then also make it clear when collecting/printing/saving the ticket. If you get people using the app, make it so the app reminds you on the day of your journey what train you're booked on, the running status and any other useful information you might get from an airline. Given they're going after those who are flying from London to Scotland.

 

[TravelDream]

Most people on here, probably true. There are very many more who use trains very rarely. To them the entire railway operational system and fares structure is bewildering.

That it is, but I think more people have a misunderstanding in the opposite direction as they are more aware of flight tickets or coach tickets.

I have spoken to multiple people with very expensive anytime tickets who think they can only take the 11.37 service as that's the one they selected online. I've also seen people at Cardiff Central who think they need to take the TFW service to Paddington as they bought the tickets off TFW staff.

I mean you wouldn't turn up at Heathrow to fly BA with your Ryanair ticket from Stansted, would you?

 

[Ianno87]

I think most people probably understand the concept of a ticket that's tied to a particular time/event, as long as it's made clear enough throughout the booking process (and especially at the point where you are asked to pay). Then also make it clear when collecting/printing/saving the ticket. If you get people using the app, make it so the app reminds you on the day of your journey what train you're booked on, the running status and any other useful information you might get from an airline. Given they're going after those who are flying from London to Scotland.

That it is, but I think more people have a misunderstanding in the opposite direction as they are more aware of flight tickets or coach tickets.

I have spoken to multiple people with very expensive anytime tickets who think they can only take the 11.37 service as that's the one they selected online. I've also seen people at Cardiff Central who think they need to take the TFW service to Paddington as they bought the tickets off TFW staff.

I mean you wouldn't turn up at Heathrow to fly BA with your Ryanair ticket from Stansted, would you?

Yes, I'd say the opposite is true - people who buy flexible tickets not realising that they are flexible!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I'd say the opposite is true - people who buy flexible tickets not realising that they are flexible!

Agreed. Most probably because long distance public transport of other kinds (coaches and planes) do require you to book a specific departure and if you miss it you lose (at least some of) your money.

(Yes, I know, except full fare IATA interavailable "Y" class tickets, but I wonder when an airline last sold one? If you thought London-Manchester Anytimes were expensive...)

 

[kev1974]

The point about just being able to turn up and get the train without a ticket or fear of penalty fare is moot isn't it, given that every station they call at has barriers I think? (Not sure about Morpeth). Cannot see how many people would manage to get as far as their trains, unless they got lucky with the unpredictable occasions when the staff have clocked off and opened all the barriers.

 

[DanNCL]

The point about just being able to turn up and get the train without a ticket or fear of penalty fare is moot isn't it, given that every station they call at has barriers I think? (Not sure about Morpeth). Cannot see how many people would manage to get as far as their trains, unless they got lucky with the unpredictable occasions when the staff have clocked off and opened all the barriers.

No barriers at Morpeth, and only some platforms have them at Edinburgh.

 

[Alex365Dash]

BR used to say you could book a compartment or coach by buying all the seats, but it's not something I've seen in that form recently.

Bit more complicated than buying seats nowadays, but is absolutely still a thing on a few InterCity TOCs, although usually comes with a “VIP experience” or something of the sort.

Spoiler: TOCs with carriage bookings

LNER Platinum experience

Hire your own private coach on an LNER train with our exclusive Platinum VIP experience. We’re here to make it happen, in our own unique way.

www.lner.co.uk

GWR group train tickets and travel | Book online | Great Western Railway

Save on group bookings at GWR, with discounted fares for groups of 10 or more. Book now for hassle-free group travel with Great Western Railway.

www.gwr.com

Private Train Carriage | VIP Travel | Avanti West Coast

Travel in style with a private train booking, ideal for special occasions. Book a private train carriage and travel as an Avanti West Coast VIP.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

everyone else had an e-ticket which was by definition paid for by card.

I can't imagine anyone actually wanting to do it, but if for some bizarre reason you did, an Avanti booking office could sell you an eticket with cash payment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2021 ==

Yes, yes, yes I get all that....

But how many people at Morpeth will this actually affect..... (given this will be the only station this is a problem at, which isn't a very busy one, and only affects those who specifically wants to travel on Lumo as opposed to other operators). There is no Lumo journey that is not possible on other operators.

Presumably the solution if someone demonstrates ability to pay (by presenting the cash) is to take name and details and seek payment later, or something. And joining at Morpeth gives people the opportunity to leave the train at Newcastle (heading south).

Presumably First Group have data from Hull Trains on how many folk pay cash on board.

The once in a blue moon when it happens isn't even really that difficult to deal with. Just issue the customer an invoice... Same as what happens at some toll booths if a driver only has cash to pay their toll.

 

[JamesT]

Bit more complicated than buying seats nowadays, but is absolutely still a thing on a few InterCity TOCs, although usually comes with a “VIP experience” or something of the sort.

Spoiler: TOCs with carriage bookings

LNER Platinum experience

Hire your own private coach on an LNER train with our exclusive Platinum VIP experience. We’re here to make it happen, in our own unique way.

www.lner.co.uk

GWR group train tickets and travel | Book online | Great Western Railway

Save on group bookings at GWR, with discounted fares for groups of 10 or more. Book now for hassle-free group travel with Great Western Railway.

www.gwr.com

Private Train Carriage | VIP Travel | Avanti West Coast

Travel in style with a private train booking, ideal for special occasions. Book a private train carriage and travel as an Avanti West Coast VIP.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

I’ve seen occasional stories about Manchester United travelling to London from Stockport on the train. You would expect they would book out a carriage or two of First Class for the purpose.

 

[norbitonflyer]

am I supposed to take them seriously when, multiple times on the Edinburgh page appears the word

And their first suggestion of something to do "near" Edinburgh is hire a campervan, drive a long way north and annoy the locals.

As well as the North Coast 500, which at its closest is 150 miles from Edinburgh, they suggest Inverness, Loch Ness, Aberdeen and Staffa, all of which are over 100 miles from Edinburgh. Indeed, some of them are so remote that you could be back in London more quickly than the onward journey would take.

Whilst in London, why not visit Dartmoor, or Bruges?

And if they mention "The Toon" and "The Smoke" (I have never heard it called "The Big Smoke") why is "Auld Reekie" not mentioned?

Places to visit suggested from Morpeth include Hadrian's Wall (15 miles away in, errm, Newcastle) and Lindisfarne (which is almost half way between Morpeth and Edinburgh, and much closer to Berwick anyway)

From Newcastle they suggest visiting Morpeth - why not just stay on the train? And from Stevenage they suggest visiting Kings Cross - although you can't use Lumo's trains to do so.

 

[Alex365Dash]

The point about just being able to turn up and get the train without a ticket or fear of penalty fare is moot isn't it, given that every station they call at has barriers I think? (Not sure about Morpeth). Cannot see how many people would manage to get as far as their trains, unless they got lucky with the unpredictable occasions when the staff have clocked off and opened all the barriers.

Considering any barriers can easily be defeated by a quick check of Lumo’s Passenger Charter, they will get to the train. Although you wouldn’t want to try and board without intending to pay, considering King’s Cross to Newcastle non-stop is a bit long to be sitting in the toilet…

HOW TO BUY A TICKET & RESERVE A SEAT​

[…]
If you forgot to pre-book your ticket, you can still buy one onboard without penalty. When travelling from a station with ticket gates, you can ask the gateline colleague to let you through.

The once in a blue moon when it happens isn't even really that difficult to deal with. Just issue the customer an invoice...

…which already exist in the form of Unpaid Fare Notices, and is in fact what Lumo are planning to do!

MAKING SURE YOU HAVE A VALID TICKET​

We do not operate a penalty fare scheme so you can come on board our trains and purchase your ticket with our colleagues. Please bear in mind that we do not accept cash. You will be able to pay by card, bank transfer, or through our portal where family or friends can make the payment in your favour].

However, if you cannot pay for your ticket, an Unpaid Fares Notice will be issued to you.

 

[capitalconnect]

Considering any barriers can easily be defeated by a quick check of Lumo’s Passenger Charter, they will get to the train. Although you wouldn’t want to try and board without intending to pay, considering King’s Cross to Newcastle non-stop is a bit long to be sitting in the toilet…


…which already exist in the form of Unpaid Fare Notices, and is in fact what Lumo are planning to do!

It says that Unpaid Fares Notices will be issued if you can not pay for your ticket. I would presume this to mean if you have no money on you. However having cash on you does not mean you can not pay for your ticket. It just means you only have a payment method which they do not accept. So it is unclear as to whether they intend to issue Unpaid Fares Notices in such cases where the person has cash but not card.

I know lots of people are saying that such occasions would be rare but there will still be some such instances of passengers onboard without a ticket who only have cash and no card on them at all. A very small amount is different to none. So this will be an issue for a small amount of people.

Perhaps i shall email Lumo and ask them what will happen if someone only has cash on them. I suppose that is the only way to know for sure. I hope that they have a planned solution for this as it will happen even if it is only very small number of people.

 

[Alex365Dash]

So it is unclear as to whether they intend to issue Unpaid Fares Notices in such cases where the person has cash but not card.

Well, either they issue Unpaid Fare Notices or they allow the passenger to purchase their ticket at their destination. Given that, upon further inspection, the Passenger Charter mentions both, I’m beginning to think the only way to truly find out is to hop on a southbound train from Morpeth with three £20 notes in hand and your debit card at home.

If you are unable to purchase a ticket on our train, please go to the excess fare/ticket office at your destination station or approach a member of the gateline team and ask them where you can purchase a ticket.

 

[yorkie]

They can't get out of accepting Rail Travel Vouchers if they are participating in National Rail ticketing. I look forward to someone travelling from Morpeth and trying that out

To be honest it sounds like a poor operation to me. I will stick to LNER (I like LNER to travel with generally, except for some of their current messaging which is appalling but I've spoken about that in other threads )

 

[ungreat]

You can’t call them “crew”, they’re “ambassadors” and some other woke term instead of “drivers”.

Why is it a 'woke" term?
I'm a driver..of nearly 35 years. Why is a totally corporate image term used by a company, "woke"??
I'm a driver ..probably now a " motive power operative". Not "woke"
A guard is a guard. Now either OBS or conductor...btw an old US term for a guard even used on LU in early years..not "woke"
A company calls roles what it does
This is not a new thing! For years train guards have had different names...same as platform staff, RPIs, etc
How is it "woke"??

 

[the sniper]

Why is it a 'woke" term?
I'm a driver..of nearly 35 years. Why is a totally corporate image term used by a company, "woke"??
I'm a driver ..probably now a " motive power operative". Not "woke"
A guard is a guard. Now either OBS or conductor...btw an old US term for a guard even used on LU in early years..not "woke"
A company calls roles what it does
This is not a new thing! For years train guards have had different names...same as platform staff, RPIs, etc
How is it "woke"??

No need to get all woke about it mate...

 

[AlterEgo]

The point about just being able to turn up and get the train without a ticket or fear of penalty fare is moot isn't it, given that every station they call at has barriers I think? (Not sure about Morpeth). Cannot see how many people would manage to get as far as their trains, unless they got lucky with the unpredictable occasions when the staff have clocked off and opened all the barriers.

They say you will be able to ask to be let through the barriers there. Although they don’t have any LUMO ONLY tickets, you’ll only be able to buy regular interavailable tickets on board like ANY PERMITTED or VIA YORK for example.

 

[yorksrob]

404 - Page Not Found | Lumo

Uh-oh! You've stumbled across a broken link or you've typed the URL incorrectly. Use our main menu to get back on track.

www.lumo.co.uk

It sounds like their marketing approach regarding their fleet is addressing everything the Azumas are unpopular for amongst customers. Comfy seats, no overly bright lighting, etc.

Those all sound like good innovations.

Look forward to seeing what the interior is like (though might be a while, given they miss out Yorkshire as I understand it).

 

[Darandio]

The point about just being able to turn up and get the train without a ticket or fear of penalty fare is moot isn't it, given that every station they call at has barriers I think? (Not sure about Morpeth). Cannot see how many people would manage to get as far as their trains, unless they got lucky with the unpredictable occasions when the staff have clocked off and opened all the barriers.

Doesn't seem to have been a big issue on Grand Central for over a decade?

 

[cuccir]

At the moment they're a bit of a novelty. A cheap fare if you happen to need to travel around that time but nothing more really. The times aren't the best, though I see how the 16:12 Friday out 16:24 Sunday back works well for a weekend away in London. The impact will come when/if they get to 5 services each way per day, particularly if these involve peak time travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the moment they're a bit of a novelty. A cheap fare if you happen to need to travel around that time but nothing more really. The times aren't the best, though I see how the 16:12 Friday out 16:24 Sunday back works well for a weekend away in London. The impact will come when/if they get to 5 services each way per day, particularly if these involve peak time travel.

With Edinburgh-London fares all being singles you can of course combine with LNER easily enough.

 

[centro-323]

The impact will come when/if they get to 5 services each way per day...

They absolutely will. The 5 trains aren't going to pay for themselves sitting there doing nothing.

 

[dk1]

They absolutely will. The 5 trains aren't going to pay for themselves sitting there doing nothing.

Doesn’t leave anything in reserve though. Does Hull Trains diagram all 5 units daily?

 

[43096]

Doesn’t leave anything in reserve though. Does Hull Trains diagram all 5 units daily?

Lumo will be diagramming 4 units with one on maintenance.

More interesting will be what they do when there’s engineering work: borrow 802s from Hull with 803s doing KX-Hull for a single 802 forward?