Forced to pay twice due to issues with ticket machine

[NorthOxonian]

This morning I was travelling from Newcastle to Carlisle using an advance fare (bought in the recent sale for £1). However, the ticket machine did not print the ticket and only printed the receipt. I tried a number of other machines but these did not work either.

I sought assistance from a member of staff on the gateline at Newcastle - she advised me to just board the train because she didn't think there was time for me to get to the ticket office (it was about ten minutes before departure at this point). I wouldn't have even considered boarding unless she had told me to do so.

When on the train, I explained the situation to the guard when he came to check tickets - he said that there was no issue at all. However, when I got to Carlisle, revenue staff (from Transpennine Express) were at the exit. They were quite confrontational and wanted to know why I hadn't gone to the ticket office. I explained that I had been advised not to but they then accused me of not leaving enough time between arriving at the station and getting on the train (which isn't true - I got there twenty minutes beforehand and spent most of that time trying to collect my tickets from the machines), and then told me that I was probably just trying it on. I was told I was lucky not to be getting a penalty fare and was sold an Anytime Day Single from Newcastle to Carlisle costing £18.

I do accept that technically, the revenue protection officer was right and I did not have a valid ticket. However, I had been told by multiple members of staff that this would not be an issue, and I bitterly resent having to pay twice for the same journey (especially because money is tight at the moment). Is there anything I can do?

 

[Starmill]

If you're given permission to travel with a booking reference that's permission to travel. The staff asking you to pay again were wrong.

If you're certain that the staff who insisted on incorrectly charging you were from TransPennine Express, write to them with a photo of the ticket they sold you and your booking reference number or a screenshot of your email booking confirmation. You can explain that you'd like the £18 refunded as soon as possible and if you wish you could ask for a reference number for a complaint about the conduct of the member of staff - that's entirely up to you though of course.

Personally if they had insisted that I pay at the end of my journey I would have been tempted to explain politely that I'd already paid and had done nothing wrong, then just walk off. You should have been free to leave at any time.

 

[NorthOxonian]

If you're given permission to travel with a booking reference that's permission to travel. The staff asking you to pay again were wrong.

If you're certain that the staff who insisted on incorrectly charging you were from TransPennine Express, write to them with a photo of the ticket they sold you and your booking reference number or a screenshot of your email booking confirmation. You can explain that you'd like the £18 refunded as soon as possible and if you wish you could ask for a reference number for a complaint about the conduct of the member of staff - that's entirely up to you though of course.

Yes - I'm fairly certain they were from TransPennine Express because they wore a TPE name badge. The ticket I was sold also has TransPennine Express (and their address) on it.

 

[gray1404]

This is a known issue about problems printing the Northern sale tickets. TOC staff should have been briefed about this. Submit a formal complaint to TPE.

 

[3rd rail land]

If you're given permission to travel with a booking reference that's permission to travel. The staff asking you to pay again were wrong.

If you're certain that the staff who insisted on incorrectly charging you were from TransPennine Express, write to them with a photo of the ticket they sold you and your booking reference number or a screenshot of your email booking confirmation. You can explain that you'd like the £18 refunded as soon as possible and if you wish you could ask for a reference number for a complaint about the conduct of the member of staff - that's entirely up to you though of course.

Personally if they had insisted that I pay at the end of my journey I would have been tempted to explain politely that I'd already paid and had done nothing wrong, then just walk off. You should have been free to leave at any time.

Absolutely. Based on your account you made a very reasonable effort to get your ticket from the TVMs and were denied through no fault of your own. I don't see why you should have to risk missing your train to visit the ticket office just because of some dodgy ticket machines which is in no way your fault. You even had an employee advise you to board the train without going via the ticket office as there probably wasn't time.

In your situation I would have explained everything to the revenue person and then walked away, assume there wasn't a gateline preventing you from doing so, because you have done nothing wrong. You paid £18 you shouldn't have had to. $18 can be a lot of money to some people and even if it isn't I don't see why anyone should have to waste money for a situation which is in no way their fault.

This is a known issue about problems printing the Northern sale tickets. TOC staff should have been briefed about this. Submit a formal complaint to TPE.

I would most definitely be submitting a formal complaint to TPE but I would also complain to Northern about their problematic TVMs.

 

[Haywain]

I would most definitely be submitting a formal complaint to TPE but I would also complain to Northern about their problematic TVMs

The TVMs at Newcastle are not operated by Northern, but the fault for the ticket issuing problem certainly lies with them.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Genuinely asking a question here, but could the guard on the train have issued some form of 'free' ticket that would have prevented the issue at Carlisle?

 

[NorthOxonian]

In your situation I would have explained everything to the revenue person and then walked away, assume there wasn't a gateline preventing you from doing so, because you have done nothing wrong. You paid £18 you shouldn't have had to. $18 can be a lot of money to some people and even if it isn't I don't see why anyone should have to waste money for a situation which is in no way their fault.

There wasn't a gateline, but I was worried that if I walked off the revenue staff would have at least given me a penalty fare, if not worse. I was also very stressed and almost in a state of shock - the thought of doing anything other than what I was told didn't really cross my mind.

Genuinely asking a question here, but could the guard on the train have issued some form of 'free' ticket that would have prevented the issue at Carlisle?

One of my biggest regrets is not saying something to this effect on the train. The conversation I had with the guard was pretty short - I explained the situation, he said that things were fine (and praised me for getting such good value tickets in the seat sale), and that was that. But given that Carlisle station doesn't have barriers, my guess is that the guard didn't expect me to have a problem - he wouldn't have known about a revenue operation from a different company.

 

[al78]

Genuinely asking a question here, but could the guard on the train have issued some form of 'free' ticket that would have prevented the issue at Carlisle?

I was thinking along the same lines, the problem here seems to be the OP was verbally given permission to travel but had no written proof, so the revenue staff at the other end assumed no ticket meant likely fare dodger, and there clearly had been no communication between them and the staff at Newcastle. Presumably this means if a member of staff verbally gives you permission to travel due to an anomaly, you should politely ask for it in writing?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I was thinking along the same lines, the problem here seems to be the OP was verbally given permission to travel but had no written proof, so the revenue staff at the other end assumed no ticket meant likely fare dodger, and there clearly had been no communication between them and the staff at Newcastle. Presumably this means if a member of staff verbally gives you permission to travel due to an anomaly, you should politely ask for it in writing?

My worry would be that verbal permission puts me into the 'a man on the platform said' position. I guess that at least in this case you can say the guard on the xx train who should be identifiable.

 

[Watershed]

Presumably this means if a member of staff verbally gives you permission to travel due to an anomaly, you should politely ask for it in writing?

It's highly advisable but permission is valid even if given verbally. The issue is proving it - to the satisfaction of any revenue staff in a situation like this, or later to customer services, the Ombudsman or a judge if it went that far...

 

[Scott1]

In cases like this I don't have an issue with the Revenue staff. The problem is caused by the initial staff member giving verbal permission. This has then caused easily predictable problems because it becomes she said/he said. Station staff should provide a 'pass' or a complimentary ticket. A station stamp on a bit of paper does the job and avoids these issues arising. More annoyingly if the OP has issues down the line your going to be disappointed with the gaurd or revenue staff because they are charging you twice, but they wouldn't do if that station staff member provided written permission to board. By not doing so they've put their colleagues in an awkward position.

Of course ideally the ticket would ha e printed, but life's not perfect.

 

[Watershed]

In cases like this I don't have an issue with the Revenue staff. The problem is caused by the initial staff member giving verbal permission. This has then caused easily predictable problems because it becomes she said/he said. Station staff should provide a 'pass' or a complimentary ticket. A station stamp on a bit of paper does the job and avoids these issues arising. More annoyingly if the OP has issues down the line your going to be disappointed with the gaurd or revenue staff because they are charging you twice, but they wouldn't do if that station staff member provided written permission to board. By not doing so they've put their colleagues in an awkward position.

Of course ideally the ticket would ha e printed, but life's not perfect.

No, the issue is definitely with the revenue staff and their attitude. The staff at Newcastle and the guard on the train didn't prevent the situation, but the revenue staff ultimately caused it to become an issue.

Of course it's difficult to tell people who are genuine from chancers. But that is a large part of their job, and people should always give the benefit of the doubt where they give a plausible account for why they do not have a ticket.

This isn't the first time I've heard of issuing arising where passengers are given authority to travel without a ticket.

 

[NorthOxonian]

No, the issue is definitely with the revenue staff and their attitude. The staff at Newcastle and the guard on the train didn't prevent the situation, but the revenue staff ultimately caused it to become an issue.

Of course it's difficult to tell people who are genuine from chancers. But that is a large part of their job, and people should always give the benefit of the doubt where they give a plausible account for why they do not have a ticket.

This isn't the first time I've heard of issuing arising where passengers are given authority to travel without a ticket.

I completely understand why the revenue staff take the attitude that they do - I have no doubt a lot of people do try it on. But I had photographic proof of the ticket machine not working, as well as the collection receipt which was the only thing that was printed. Neither of these were even acknowledged.

 

[DanNCL]

Considering Carlisle isn’t a TPE operated station nor was the OP travelling on a TPE service did the TPE staff even have the right to be asking to see the ticket in the first place? I always thought that staff checking tickets had to be contracted either by the operator(s) travelled with or the operator of the station, of which in this case TPE is neither.

 

[Watershed]

Considering Carlisle isn’t a TPE operated station nor was the OP travelling on a TPE service did the TPE staff even have the right to be asking to see the ticket in the first place? I always thought that staff checking tickets had to be contracted either by the operator(s) travelled with or the operator of the station, of which in this case TPE is neither.

Generally, any TOC can check tickets on behalf of any other TOC. In this case there is also a reciprocal agreement in place, which includes the issuance of Penalty Fares.

 

[Starmill]

The staff at Newcastle and onboard the train provided the best customer service that they could under the unfortunate circumstance of a technical error made by Northern. The staff at Carlisle acted unlawfully, because they caused a breach of the OP's contract for travel.

I know which I think is the appropriate behaviour.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s poor of the revenue staff to ching the OP like this, especially when he had proof the machine had issues. I mean if they’d taken him to one side and put in a call to someone to even vaguely verify the story this would have had a much better ending.

I’d be complaining to TPE.

 

[Starmill]

A station stamp on a bit of paper does the job and avoids these issues arising.

In general there's a strong cultural reluctance for any staff to write things down that could come back to them. Also, some staff believe / have been instructed by their supervisors that they aren't authorised to give formal permission for travel on any service other than that which is run by their own employer. I don't know if that is something which is common at Newcastle or not, but it is in general.

 

[Wolfie]

It’s poor of the revenue staff to ching the OP like this, especially when he had proof the machine had issues. I mean if they’d taken him to one side and put in a call to someone to even vaguely verify the story this would have had a much better ending.

I’d be complaining to TPE.

Absolutely and if they, as is all too often the case, follow up with some BS justification don't argue just MCOL.

 

[Starmill]

Of course ideally the ticket would ha e printed, but life's not perfect.

For reference, genuine ToD failures are uncommon, and almost all ticket offices have the ability to recall failed issues with a strong likelihood of success (or less commonly to physically remove the tickets when they're stuck in the hopper of the machine).

The issue the OP experienced however affected all bookings made in Northern's promotion for collection, as a result of an error in the retail process.

I am not aware of any procedure in place for mitigation of that beyond travel with a collection reference, which funnily enough is exactly what the staff advised.

 

[Kite159]

The staff at Newcastle and onboard the train provided the best customer service that they could under the unfortunate circumstance of a technical error made by Northern. The staff at Carlisle acted unlawfully, because they caused a breach of the OP's contract for travel.

I know which I think is the appropriate behaviour.

But don't worry I'm sure eventually after several letters the OP will get the money back, as TPE will do a "gesture of goodwill" because they did nothing wrong and it was all the OPs fault etc.

No extra payment for the hassle and stress caused by the railways messing up again

 

[RPI]

The staff at Newcastle and onboard the train provided the best customer service that they could under the unfortunate circumstance of a technical error made by Northern. The staff at Carlisle acted unlawfully, because they caused a breach of the OP's contract for travel.

I know which I think is the appropriate behaviour.

The staff at Newcastle and on the train didn't though, they have many tools in their arsenal to even write a note to say they had allowed travel, ultimately the inspector at Carlisle has to deal with whats in front of them and ultimately a valid ticket was not presented so they most certainly didn't act unlawfully.

However, there are also many other avenues the staff at Carlisle could have taken including making an attempt to verify what the OP has said and worst case scenario issue a UFN so that to OP isn't out of pocket up front and can later send an email with the relevant documentation to get it withdrawn.

Its a poor chain of events where the first two members of staff have passed the buck because they can't be bothered to deal with it properly.

The TOC I work for (and others do too) issue us with "back on track" pads exactly for this kind of scenario, where an authority to travel is issued, complete with the issuers name and signature so there can be no come back on the passenger.

A short section of blank ticket from the guards Star machine with a quick note, Headcode and ID number could have saved a lot of hassle!

 

[bb21]

The staff at Newcastle and onboard the train provided the best customer service that they could under the unfortunate circumstance of a technical error made by Northern.

There is a reason why I always endorse tickets with name, headcode, ID number, and signature when allowing travel on anything other than a valid ticket. It helps the customer and my colleagues further along the journey.

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say "provided the best customer service that they could" because their (in)action caused the customer undue hassle at the other end of the journey, but without knowing what sort of training and/or briefing they had I am unable to pass comment on what else they could have done. As already observed upthread, Carlisle is normally ungated, so this may have been a simple oversight.

But endorsing tickets is the least they could have done. If they had no authority to do that, they had no authority to give permission.

So two opportunities to ensure the customer's journey went smoothly missed, prior to him arriving at the destination.

 

[Starmill]

a valid ticket was not presented so they most certainly didn't act unlawfully.

Overwhelming evidence was produced that a contract for travel was in place. This wasn't accepted, and as a result that contract was breached. Therefore it was an unlawful action. It wasn't a crime but that doesn't mean it wasn't a breach of the contract.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2021 ==

Its a poor chain of events where the first two members of staff have passed the buck because they can't be bothered to deal with it properly.

Are you certain? Or could they be doing what their company policy says?

It's not as if allowing travel with only a collection reference never happens.

 

[skyhigh]

Are you certain? Or could they be doing what their company policy says?

Staff have been made aware of the collection issue, and are told to simply allow travel on the collection reference for the £1 sale tickets. Other TOCs were made aware of this, obviously it hasn't filtered down to everyone who should be aware though. Plenty of examples on Northern's twitter of people just being told to travel on the reference.

Guards aren't given any kind of form/reference card, so any written endorsement would just have to be hand written on a bit of ticket roll.

 

[Starmill]

But endorsing tickets is the least they could have done.

A short section of blank ticket from the guards Star machine with a quick note, Headcode and ID number could have saved a lot of hassle!

Staff have been made aware of the collection issue, and are told to simply allow travel on the collection reference for the £1 sale tickets. Other TOCs were made aware of this, obviously it hasn't filtered down to everyone who should be aware though. Plenty of examples on Northern's twitter of people just being told to travel on the reference.

Guards aren't given any kind of form/reference card, so any written endorsement would just have to be hand written on a bit of ticket roll.

Indeed. Perhaps Northern thought that a reasonable worst case scenario would be that one member of staff might have to write several hundred "authority to travel" notes in one shift, and that was judged impractical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Perhaps Northern thought that a reasonable worst case scenario would be that one member of staff might have to write several hundred "authority to travel" notes in one shift, and that was judged impractical.

Presumably customers weren't felt important enough for them to pre-print a stock to pass to guards to hand out as needed.

If this has come up on here you can guarantee it's happened to lots of others who didn't know better and just paid up. The railway loves shooting itself in the foot, does it not? This is incredibly bad.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably customers weren't felt important enough for them to pre-print a stock to pass to guards to hand out as needed.

As predictable as it may appear to some eyes, I think it very possible that the idea that this kind of customer service problem might ever occur may not have been considered by anyone in the company at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As predictable as it may appear to some eyes, I think it very possible that the idea that this kind of customer service problem might ever occur may not have been considered by anyone in the company at all.

Possibly not, but they need to think sometimes. Given that they have the contact details of everyone who booked such a ticket they could even have taken the hit and posted some form of ticket out.

I've said this for years - there needs to be an absolute prohibition on issuing permission to travel without evidence. For severe disruption where large numbers are involved pre-printed pads should be to hand.