Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Hadleywood]

AM9, i am sorry but i totally disagree with most of what you put but you are entitled to your opinion of course.
That you think that nobody should have an enjoyable car rather then something simply to get from A to B shows how narrow minded you are also.
4,800 miles i did last year, well i have friends who do 30 and even 40 thousand miles EVERY year and no they are not company reps. So you are going after the wrong target in any case.
You may be happy with an electric car, one speed, silent and characterless but your view would be laughed out of the Pistonheads forum i am a moderator on, because we have literally millions of members for whom a screaming straight six petrol or indeed a monster V10 with it's roots in the 1940s are heaven-sent!
Check out what a 'plane or even a diesel locomotive kicks out, get some perspective.

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I've always viewed driving private motor vehicles on public roads as a means of transport rather than a leisure activity. Inevitably, fast acceleration, high speeds and heavy braking are detrimental both in noise and air quality to those unfortuante enough to be near such activities

I bet you're fun at a party!


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I wasn’t attempting to claim anything, I asked you what you thought about emissions from steam locomotives for the simple reason that this is a rail enthusiasts forum. As it happens you’ve confirmed what I suspected, i.e. it’s fine because you like steam locomotives whereas you don’t like cars. Or in other words, do as I say not as I do. You also appear to underestimate just how polluting steam locomotives are (heritage diesels aren’t exactly clean either). Are the “nutters” driving the cars you so despise really that different to people who enjoy driving old trains? Or vintage buses maybe? Or how about people who fly Spitfires and Hurricanes? Just because you don’t like something that doesn’t make it wrong.

Bravo. You are right, AM9 is typical of the hypocrites who say do as i do or take the highway. Steam and diesel preserved lines create huge pollution on a scale my 8.4 V10 car couldn't hope to approach.
If people are going to pretend they are greener and more ethical than everyone else they need to make sure they are doing it completely with no hypocrisy.
I also do track days with my 300bhp Caterham and that isn't the most fuel efficient but so what? I,like you, am a petrol head and cars and motorcycles are also there for pleasure, many of the bike crowd i mix with don't go out to get somewhere, they go out because they can and the destination is irrelevant.
AM9, get some fun into your life matey.
I also agree DustyBin that ''nutters'' cover a lot of people. All down to opinion. Is there anything more ridiculous than spending all day travelling hundreds of miles to write an engine number down then go all the way back home again? To many that is an insane waste of time and effort. What about watching 22 people run around trying to kick a blown up bit of plastic between 2 sticks. People get a million pounds a fortnight for doing that. We can criticise any hobby.
Whilst legal i will continue to drive my Dodge Viper and ride my Ducati 1299, but i will also recycle to the max, walk or cycle everywhere that i can and only shop once a month. I do my bit, certainly better than most of my family and friends. There's people i know who do the 800 metre school run in their 4x4.

 

[ashkeba]

.
Going back to your post above, @Domh245 has provided some interesting analysis of the pollution caused by steam locomotives relative to a car park full of modern cars (the result is what I would have expected to be honest). I take your point, i.e. that you used the steam hauled service as public transport and it was running anyway, however it was only steam hauled because people choose to restore, maintain and operate such machines. It’s a hobby and is no different to car enthusiasts choosing to drive a particular car.

@paul1609 suggests the analysis may have overestimated the coal consumption significantly.

Is it really no different? Do many car enthusiasts take passengers from A to B as transport like that mentioned steam railway trip? Are there many heritage taxi services that I have not noticed?

 

[JamesT]

Is it really no different? Do many car enthusiasts take passengers from A to B as transport like that mentioned steam railway trip? Are there many heritage taxi services that I have not noticed?

I don’t know about the UK, but Berlin has various tourist services based around the old Trabant car. That feels like a comparable thing to a heritage railway.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely though all of this is a total red herring? The vast majority of car users are not driving around in heritage vehicles or attending track days. The vast majority of passengers on the railway do not travel on heritage railways. A track day with dozens of car enthusiasts pelting round in their V10 car or souped up Corsa is not exactly going to be a major problem when it comes to emissions. Just as the East Lancs having a diesel gala or the North York Moors having a steam gala isn't going to be a massive issue for emissions.

Getting steamed up about what the heritage sector or enthusiasts may or may not do to emissions surely misses the far far larger and more important (from a net zero/climate change/emissions point of view) that we need to do something about the millions of fossil fuelled cars and vans on the roads which are used every day. If someone wants bomb around in a V8 on the weekend then all power to them just as if someone wants to jump on a steam hauled mainline railtour (or diesel!). As long as their daily driver to work or for the school run or shopping or whatever else is electric. Heck for the real petrolheads I doubt that them running around in something which measures it's fuel consumption in the single figure MPGs will be a particular issue.

It's the millions of cars (and people) who really don't give a stuff about their car beyond it being reliable, comfortable and getting them from a to b that we need to be focussing on helping get into electric vehicles sooner rather than later.

All this stuff about railway vs car enthusiasts and heritage rail vehicles versus heritage road vehicles seems like a complete and total red herring to me. When both represent a fraction of the transport emissions that we're worrying about!

 

[AM9]

I think we’re debating at cross purposes to an extent here. The point I’m trying to get across is that the most polluting cars (especially classic cars) tend to cover low mileages and are effectively just toys. Some modern cars fall into the same category, in fact I collected my Focus brand new in January 2017 and it’s covered less than 5000 miles since! Owning and driving these cars isn’t an issue as far as I’m concerned as they’re relatively few and far between and often don’t get used that much. The “battle” we should be focusing on getting everyday commuters, the school run brigade etc. into EVs as it makes sense; the only real downside currently is the cost of EVs themselves. I’ve stated previously that I will go electric for my daily/company car in the relatively near future, however I’m holding out for (hopefully) more interesting EV options and most importantly a better charging infrastructure. ...

I agree that classic cars are both voluntarily limited in their mileage by users (and often by the insurance policies that are taken out on them). But there are still plenty of new vehicles sold every year that have no pretension of being low emission (other than complying with the minimum legal obligations in force) and many of their drivers certainly don't behave as if there is a problem with CO2 et al. When there is a range of EVs that range from the functional to the extreme, providing there is enough sustainable energy to support them all, there may be a chance of stopping this catastrophic rise in CO2. The automobile manufacturers will produce that range of vehicles if there is a demand for them, but if they don't there will a single choice of EVs in whatever form they come, or staying with ever ageing IC vehicles that will, by their rarity become more expensive to fuel, and by government action become more expensive to licence and drive. So the destiny of these 'gas guzzling' vehicles outside a museum is very rare outings on a diminishing number of roads that they will be allowed on.

... Going back to your post above, @Domh245 has provided some interesting analysis of the pollution caused by steam locomotives relative to a car park full of modern cars (the result is what I would have expected to be honest). I take your point, i.e. that you used the steam hauled service as public transport and it was running anyway, however it was only steam hauled because people choose to restore, maintain and operate such machines. It’s a hobby and is no different to car enthusiasts choosing to drive a particular car. I only used it as an example of a shared interest that isn’t great for the environment but seems to attract a lot less criticism for some reason.

This is of course a railway forum and to be honest I don't fit the mould of a steam loco enthusiast. I appreciate their asthetics in visual terms but don't drive (or even travel) many miles just to see then in steam. I'm more interested in rail travel and operation in the context of now and the future. And as far as possible, most of my rail travel (to any destination) is by electric trains. Domh245's e-mail is interesting and I accept what he says in numerical terms, but some steam fans travel many miles (from home) just to enjoy their hobby, which may take the road miles (and CO2) impact in a way more similar to that of steam locos.

 

[Hadleywood]

I'm for a fair balance between not producing any pollution at all (i keep the baked beans consumption down!) and actually living the one very short life we will get. If you take all or most of the pleasure out then why bother getting up in the morning?
According to an article i read in The Times millions of people driving all electric vehicles will need huge upgrades to our electricity production in the UK, way beyond what a few wind farms and solar panels will achieve. Oh and remember, as with everything there are downsides to wind farms. Bird strikes, can be unreliable, expensive to transport and maintain, etc.
Remember this also, what we do here in UK will make bugga all difference anyway to the planet's pollution levels. Whilst China are building hundreds of coal fired stations, whilst pollution produced in countries where i have been to like India and USA and Singapore and Japan and countless more places is right off the scale, then what we trim back here will be like telling your kid not to pee in the sea in Cornwall. We produce 0.9% of the world's carbon so again, perspective is needed surely?
Let's not pretend that people changing to electric cars here will do much for the entire planet. It will do almost nothing.
The price of a new battery for an electric car can be many thousands of pounds by the way. A big minus there!
Enough, everyone buy what they are happy with but let me enjoy my 615 bhp 10 mpg BEAST! (Driven about twice a week only and not very far usually).
Over and out.

 

[AM9]

... but your view would be laughed out of the Pistonheads forum i am a moderator on, because we have literally millions of members for whom a screaming straight six petrol or indeed a monster V10 with it's roots in the 1940s are heaven-sent!

There's no point in trying to discuss this matter in a rail social media group with a poster with such extreme views.

 

[Hadleywood]

There's no point in trying to discuss this matter in a rail social media group with a poster with such extreme views.

The only person extreme here is you who have shown to be very extreme and narrow minded in your beliefs. Or are the millions i mentioned ALL extreme?
Don't be so daft.

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The only person extreme here is you who have shown to be very extreme and narrow minded in your beliefs. Or are the millions i mentioned ALL extreme?
Don't be so daft.

Like i said i am for a FAIR BALANCE, read what i said properly.

 

[py_megapixel]

I am for a FAIR BALANCE.

I think you and some other posters disagree about what constitutes a fair balance.

 

[DustyBin]

@paul1609 suggests the analysis may have overestimated the coal consumption significantly.

Is it really no different? Do many car enthusiasts take passengers from A to B as transport like that mentioned steam railway trip? Are there many heritage taxi services that I have not noticed?

I suspect the majority of steam railway journeys are leisure trips though? If a train is carrying 200 passengers but causes 200 times as much pollution (I’m just using those figures to illustrate the point) I don’t see how carrying passengers is relevant in the context of this discussion?

Surely though all of this is a total red herring? The vast majority of car users are not driving around in heritage vehicles or attending track days. The vast majority of passengers on the railway do not travel on heritage railways. A track day with dozens of car enthusiasts pelting round in their V10 car or souped up Corsa is not exactly going to be a major problem when it comes to emissions. Just as the East Lancs having a diesel gala or the North York Moors having a steam gala isn't going to be a massive issue for emissions.

Getting steamed up about what the heritage sector or enthusiasts may or may not do to emissions surely misses the far far larger and more important (from a net zero/climate change/emissions point of view) that we need to do something about the millions of fossil fuelled cars and vans on the roads which are used every day. If someone wants bomb around in a V8 on the weekend then all power to them just as if someone wants to jump on a steam hauled mainline railtour (or diesel!). As long as their daily driver to work or for the school run or shopping or whatever else is electric. Heck for the real petrolheads I doubt that them running around in something which measures it's fuel consumption in the single figure MPGs will be a particular issue.

It's the millions of cars (and people) who really don't give a stuff about their car beyond it being reliable, comfortable and getting them from a to b that we need to be focussing on helping get into electric vehicles sooner rather than later.

All this stuff about railway vs car enthusiasts and heritage rail vehicles versus heritage road vehicles seems like a complete and total red herring to me. When both represent a fraction of the transport emissions that we're worrying about!

I totally agree and to be honest this is the point I was trying to make. I only brought up heritage railways as @AM9 takes a very hard line when it comes to cars which aren’t the only offending vehicles.

I agree that classic cars are both voluntarily limited in their mileage by users (and often by the insurance policies that are taken out on them). But there are still plenty of new vehicles sold every year that have no pretension of being low emission (other than complying with the minimum legal obligations in force) and many of their drivers certainly don't behave as if there is a problem with CO2 et al. When there is a range of EVs that range from the functional to the extreme, providing there is enough sustainable energy to support them all, there may be a chance of stopping this catastrophic rise in CO2. The automobile manufacturers will produce that range of vehicles if there is a demand for them, but if they don't there will a single choice of EVs in whatever form they come, or staying with ever ageing IC vehicles that will, by their rarity become more expensive to fuel, and by government action become more expensive to licence and drive. So the destiny of these 'gas guzzling' vehicles outside a museum is very rare outings on a diminishing number of roads that they will be allowed on.


This is of course a railway forum and to be honest I don't fit the mould of a steam loco enthusiast. I appreciate their asthetics in visual terms but don't drive (or even travel) many miles just to see then in steam. I'm more interested in rail travel and operation in the context of now and the future. And as far as possible, most of my rail travel (to any destination) is by electric trains. Domh245's e-mail is interesting and I accept what he says in numerical terms, but some steam fans travel many miles (from home) just to enjoy their hobby, which may take the road miles (and CO2) impact in a way more similar to that of steam locos.

Again I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying, other than I don’t think the use of IC engined cars will be restricted to the extent you believe. As @ainsworth74 has said, there’s really no need.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm for a fair balance between not producing any pollution at all (i keep the baked beans consumption down!) and actually living the one very short life we will get. If you take all or most of the pleasure out then why bother getting up in the morning?
According to an article i read in The Times millions of people driving all electric vehicles will need huge upgrades to our electricity production in the UK, way beyond what a few wind farms and solar panels will achieve. Oh and remember, as with everything there are downsides to wind farms. Bird strikes, can be unreliable, expensive to transport and maintain, etc.
Remember this also, what we do here in UK will make bugga all difference anyway to the planet's pollution levels. Whilst China are building hundreds of coal fired stations, whilst pollution produced in countries where i have been to like India and USA and Singapore and Japan and countless more places is right off the scale, then what we trim back here will be like telling your kid not to pee in the sea in Cornwall. We produce 0.9% of the world's carbon so again, perspective is needed surely?
Let's not pretend that people changing to electric cars here will do much for the entire planet. It will do almost nothing.
The price of a new battery for an electric car can be many thousands of pounds by the way. A big minus there!
Enough, everyone buy what they are happy with but let me enjoy my 615 bhp 10 mpg BEAST! (Driven about twice a week only and not very far usually).
Over and out.

There is so much ‘fake info’ in this post I don’t know where to start. So I won’t, except to say that it’s nearly all incorrect.

 

[skyhigh]

The price of a new battery for an electric car can be many thousands of pounds by the way. A big minus there!

And how many cars need new batteries how often?

 

[PeterC]

And how many cars need new batteries how often?

A good question, perhaps you could tell us. It will be rather an important factor as the second hand market develops.

 

[skyhigh]

A good question, perhaps you could tell us. It will be rather an important factor as the second hand market develops.

Very very few from my experience - of the model I know most about, the earliest 2013 vehicles are mostly up in the 90% health range. Most cars (the Nissan Leaf excepted) have sophisticated battery cooling systems, plus the built-in battery management software means they are well taken care of. It's likely that the vast majority of batteries will outlive the cars they're in and go on to be used in energy storage projects, for example.

I'm a member of several EV groups on Facebook, and I've never heard anyone need a full battery replacement- usually any (rare) issues are faulty cells which can be individually replaced. On my current car, the vehicle has a 5yr warranty but the battery has an 8yr warranty. Full battery replacement is pretty much a non-issue.

 

[Mawkie]

There is so much ‘fake info’ in this post I don’t know where to start. So I won’t, except to say that it’s nearly all incorrect.

Indeed, the non existent issue of 'not enough electricity' can be well and truly put to bed.

Just today, there was yet another example (ofgem press release) of why this will never be a problem.

Ofgem to ensure electric car revolution unlocks full benefits for consumers

How Ofgem will support the rollout of electric vehicles (EVs) in Britain, ensuring that the infrastructure and technology is in place.

www.ofgem.gov.uk

It's just eye rolling nonsense to suggest we won't have enough power to have sufficient charging capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed, the non existent issue of 'not enough electricity' can be well and truly put to bed.

Just today, there was yet another example (ofgem press release) of why this will never be a problem.

Ofgem to ensure electric car revolution unlocks full benefits for consumers

How Ofgem will support the rollout of electric vehicles (EVs) in Britain, ensuring that the infrastructure and technology is in place.

www.ofgem.gov.uk

It's just eye rolling nonsense to suggest we won't have enough power to have sufficient charging capacity.

It’s almost as if the electricity networks are actually planning on there being a significant uptake in EVs! Who’d have thought....

Interesting to see that the costs of making ‘large’ connections to the network is going to reduce. That will also help rail electrification.

 

[AM9]

Indeed, the non existent issue of 'not enough electricity' can be well and truly put to bed.

Just today, there was yet another example (ofgem press release) of why this will never be a problem.

Ofgem to ensure electric car revolution unlocks full benefits for consumers

How Ofgem will support the rollout of electric vehicles (EVs) in Britain, ensuring that the infrastructure and technology is in place.

www.ofgem.gov.uk

It's just eye rolling nonsense to suggest we won't have enough power to have sufficient charging capacity.

It's just another fake news issue put out on social media by posters resistant to change, to misinform the gullibles who believe internet rumours.

 

[Hadleywood]

It's just another fake news issue put out on social media by posters resistant to change, to misinform the gullibles who believe internet rumours.

ERM. Fake news can be re-described as ''information i don't believe or wish to believe'', it works both ways in almost all cases.
Some people like AM9 assume everyone who thinks different must be gullible whereas actually electric cars ARE being over sold and over hyped and many like him are falling for it.

The country and, indeed, world has never been more divided, anyway. Whether it is Trump, Brexit, Tory/Labour, Scotland independence, Covid or indeed electric vehicles, there are millions of people with 180 degrees-apart opinions, ALL thinking THEY have it right.
AM9 doesn't think that vehicles should be used for anything other than the chore of getting to work or doing the shopping. How boring. Try telling friends at our car club in Ferraris and Lamborghinis and McLarens that they shouldn't drive for pleasure and only to take their cars out if they absolutely have to. Get real mate! I put you your views to the 18 people i had a car meet lunch with today and every single one disagrees with you, yes it was only 18 people but you had NO support!
Tell ya what. You drive your Prius and only use it when there is no other way of going out and we will continue to enjoy fabulous petrol cars that were made for pure pleasure.
LIKE i said, the UK puts out 0.9% of the world's pollution so even halving it, which would take a monumental effort, especially as we have been growing by half a million people a year for some time now, would make very little difference to the planet at large. That last part was said by an expert climate scientist who pointed out that new coal stations are being built regularly elsewhere.
What we do will be like the isle of Man trying to solve UK pollution on it's own!!
Electric cars are boring, they are sterile, they are very difficult to refuel for many householders, expensive to buy and human and creature collisions will increase with silent transport, that's a fact.

 

[Bald Rick]

Electric cars are ..... expensive to buy

Try telling friends at our car club in Ferraris and Lamborghinis and McLarens

?

 

[py_megapixel]

Get real mate! I put you your views to the 18 people i had a car meet lunch with today and every single one disagrees with you, yes it was only 18 people but you had NO support!

Because you spoke to only members of a car club! It's like claiming that everyone in Britain likes coffee shops based on a survey of Starbucks loyalty scheme members. In other words, utterly worthless as a source of useful data.
The United Kingdom is a country of approximately 67 million people. With those numbers, I could find 18 people who disagreed with literally anything I said. "Fishcakes are unsuitable for people with severe allergies to seafood" is probably a controversial statement for some people.

Also, nobody is trying to pry you away from your beloved internal combustion engine, if you are really that averse to EVs. You are free to drive around in your petrol vehicle for as long as the fuel for it is available - and I highly doubt sales of unleaded petroleum are going to stop for a good while yet.

Tell ya what. You drive your Prius

How many times do we have to tell you that a Prius is a hybrid, and, being among the first ones ever mass-produced, not a particularly amazing one by modern standards.
For someone who claims to know a lot about cars you are getting a fairly clear fact blatantly wrong.

Though if your only experience of any kind of EV has been a Prius, that might explain why you hate them so much.

and only use it when there is no other way of going out

I love how you phrase that as if not making use of a car for every case it could be is some awful blight on one's life. Some people find driving tedious or stressful, or don't enjoy being crammed into a car, and genuinely only want to use the car when there is no sensible alternative.

I, for one, much prefer to walk or use a bicycle - or where the length of journey or things I have to carry preclude that, pay a small fee for access to a much larger vehicle where someone else does the driving - namely, a bus [or sometimes train]. If you really want, I could find 18 people who agree with me, not that it would mean much.

Electric cars are boring, they are sterile, they are very difficult to refuel for many householders, expensive to buy and human and creature collisions will increase with silent transport, that's a fact.

No, that's - in order of appearance - two opinions which are irrelevant to the non-petrolhead majority of the population, followed by two facts which will as time goes on cease to be facts.

 

[Factotum]

I've always viewed driving private motor vehicles on public roads as a means of transport rather than a leisure activity. Inevitably, fast acceleration, high speeds and heavy braking are detrimental both in noise and air quality to those unfortuante enough to be near such activities

If private motor vehicles are simply a means of transport - a tool for getting from A to B - why are they such fashion items and why do people get so concerned about keeping them in pristine condition?

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I'm glad you think so

I do feel like a lot of reluctance is simply that people (and this isn't aimed directly at you!) haven't quite woken up to the reality that the EVs that have been sold in the last few years have got decent ranges sufficiently so that (outside of real edge cases like someone who is racking up a thousand miles per week or needs to go from Plymouth to Inverness every week or something) they can more than meet the needs of most people's everyday driving and the odd longer trip. And that the charging infrastructure, which isn't perfect by any means yet, is also increasingly extensive particularly in major urban areas but also deeper into rural areas as well.

In my view EVs have arrived and are perfectly viable for 90%+ use cases. People (and maybe a bit more infrastructure to be fair) just need to catch up

10% is a very significant shortfall. Would you be happy if your domestic electricity supply was only available 90% of the time. Or if your train only tuned up 90% of the time.

 

[AM9]

If private motor vehicles are simply a means of transport - a tool for getting from A to B - why are they such fashion items and why do people get so concerned about keeping them in pristine condition?

Because the automobile industry markets most cars as 'aspirational' and promote them as being driven by "successful and attractive" people. Buyers for their part buy into that illusion. Fortunately, not everybody falls for it.

 

[Wolfie]

AM9, i am sorry but i totally disagree with most of what you put but you are entitled to your opinion of course.
That you think that nobody should have an enjoyable car rather then something simply to get from A to B shows how narrow minded you are also.
4,800 miles i did last year, well i have friends who do 30 and even 40 thousand miles EVERY year and no they are not company reps. So you are going after the wrong target in any case.
You may be happy with an electric car, one speed, silent and characterless but your view would be laughed out of the Pistonheads forum i am a moderator on, because we have literally millions of members for whom a screaming straight six petrol or indeed a monster V10 with it's roots in the 1940s are heaven-sent!
Check out what a 'plane or even a diesel locomotive kicks out, get some perspective.

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I bet you're fun at a party!


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Bravo. You are right, AM9 is typical of the hypocrites who say do as i do or take the highway. Steam and diesel preserved lines create huge pollution on a scale my 8.4 V10 car couldn't hope to approach.
If people are going to pretend they are greener and more ethical than everyone else they need to make sure they are doing it completely with no hypocrisy.
I also do track days with my 300bhp Caterham and that isn't the most fuel efficient but so what? I,like you, am a petrol head and cars and motorcycles are also there for pleasure, many of the bike crowd i mix with don't go out to get somewhere, they go out because they can and the destination is irrelevant.
AM9, get some fun into your life matey.
I also agree DustyBin that ''nutters'' cover a lot of people. All down to opinion. Is there anything more ridiculous than spending all day travelling hundreds of miles to write an engine number down then go all the way back home again? To many that is an insane waste of time and effort. What about watching 22 people run around trying to kick a blown up bit of plastic between 2 sticks. People get a million pounds a fortnight for doing that. We can criticise any hobby.
Whilst legal i will continue to drive my Dodge Viper and ride my Ducati 1299, but i will also recycle to the max, walk or cycle everywhere that i can and only shop once a month. I do my bit, certainly better than most of my family and friends. There's people i know who do the 800 metre school run in their 4x4.

Of course what you carefully ignore is the respective numbers of trains, planes and automobiles. Even if the first two are dirtier individually there are far more of the third....

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....human and creature collisions will increase with silent transport, that's a fact.

There is one statement - stated as a fact - which is almost entirely inaccurate (as a fact) and making such assertions, in my view, serves only to discredit the rest (whether accurate or not).

At speeds in excess of (say) 15mph, the audible noise made from the majority of "ordinary" petrol cars consists almost entirely of road/tyre noise, and not engine noise. It is only a minority of special and/or modified vehicles for which this is not the case. One only has to stand beside a 30+mph road and listen. And in this respect, the noise from a pure EV is not materially different.

At lower speeds, current EVs emit an artifically generated "virtual" engine sound. In my car, that can be disabled, but we may get to (and already are in some places) a position where the kill switch isn't available; where tis sound is mandated. And even an argument that the fake noise is unfamiliar doesn't work since, if that is proven to be the case, then given it is artificial, it could be made to sound like just about anything from a jet aircaft to a railroad horn to a bell ringing to a gas-guzzling V8.....

 

[Domh245]

How many times do we have to tell you that a Prius is not an EV? It's a hybrid, and, being among the first ones ever mass-produced, not a particularly amazing one by modern standards.
For someone who claims to know a lot about cars you are getting a fairly clear fact blatantly wrong.

On a point of pedantry, a normal Prius is an EV - it's a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV). There are also mild hybrids (MHEV*), plug ins (PHEV), range extender (RE/RXEV) and Fuel Cell (FCEV) electric vehicles, as well as the battery electric vehicle (BEV) that everyone tends to thinks of. An EV by definition is a vehicle that uses electric motors for propulsion, which a Prius does, just to a lesser extent than a BEV

*More dubiously an EV than the others, but still tends to get lumped in

 

[AM9]

On a point of pedantry, a normal Prius is an EV - it's a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV). There are also mild hybrids (MHEV*), plug ins (PHEV), range extender (RE/RXEV) and Fuel Cell (FCEV) electric vehicles, as well as the battery electric vehicle (BEV) that everyone tends to thinks of. An EV by definition is a vehicle that uses electric motors for propulsion, which a Prius does, just to a lesser extent than a BEV

*More dubiously an EV than the others, but still tends to get lumped in

I wouldn't agree with that definition of an EV which just describes an IC vehicle electric transmission and sometimes with a battery as a temporary energy storage medium, - a better definition is a vehicle that uses an electric motor instead of an IC engine. That also rules out any car that has the latest ludicrous title of 'Self-Powered Electric Vehicle' - i.e. using power generated by an IC driven generator! So in answer to the question posed in the title of the thread, EVs have been blatantly misrepresented by the motor vehicle industry so far!
Cars such as the Prius are irrelevant in a discussion about pollution and CO2, as not only is the battery contribution quite mediocre, but there are thousands of them running around with life-expired batteries (e.g. many Private Hire cars in London), which their drivers choose so that they can fraudulently claim congestion zone exemption.

 

[py_megapixel]

On a point of pedantry, a normal Prius is an EV - it's a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV). There are also mild hybrids (MHEV*), plug ins (PHEV), range extender (RE/RXEV) and Fuel Cell (FCEV) electric vehicles, as well as the battery electric vehicle (BEV) that everyone tends to thinks of. An EV by definition is a vehicle that uses electric motors for propulsion, which a Prius does, just to a lesser extent than a BEV

*More dubiously an EV than the others, but still tends to get lumped in

Thanks. Post corrected.

 

[Factotum]

On a point of pedantry, a normal Prius is an EV - it's a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV). There are also mild hybrids (MHEV*), plug ins (PHEV), range extender (RE/RXEV) and Fuel Cell (FCEV) electric vehicles, as well as the battery electric vehicle (BEV) that everyone tends to thinks of. An EV by definition is a vehicle that uses electric motors for propulsion, which a Prius does, just to a lesser extent than a BEV

*More dubiously an EV than the others, but still tends to get lumped in

No no no. The only fuel that goes into a (a non plug in) hybrid is fossil fuel. That fact that it uses electricity as part of its transmission system doesn't make it an EV. No more than a class 37 diesel-electric loco is an electric loco. Nor my '08 Yaris an EV because it has a battery which can be used to move the vehicle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No no no. The only fuel that goes into a (a non plug in) hybrid is fossil fuel. That fact that it uses electricity as part of its transmission system doesn't make it an EV. No more than a class 37 diesel-electric loco is an electric loco

Yes. An EV is effectively a car with electric transmission. A bit like the word "electric" in "diesel electric".

Though most people would probably see an unqualified "EV" as meaning battery electric as the default.

 

[Factotum]

Yes. An EV is effectively a car with electric transmission. A bit like the word "electric" in "diesel electric".

Though most people would probably see an unqualified "EV" as meaning battery electric as the default.

So is my Yaris an EV because I once moved it 20 yards on electric power?