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Any thoughts on the CAM (Cambridge Autonomous Metro)?

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Dunnyrail

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Yes reading the two above cost comparisons there is clearly a lot of work needed to get tram build costs reduced, a recent PM said we must do just that on election. But it is the system created by politicians that inflates costs entirely in the hands of the ones that wring their hands over the costs. QED.
 
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HSTEd

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The problem is that people are still in the mindset that labour and effort is cheap and manufactured goods are expensive - this is no longer the case.

So they propose enormously complex schemes with enormous political costs to avoid spending money on expensive engineering solutions, then wonder when the political costs tend to drive the scheme cost through the roof regardless.
 

Dunnyrail

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The problem is that people are still in the mindset that labour and effort is cheap and manufactured goods are expensive - this is no longer the case.

So they propose enormously complex schemes with enormous political costs to avoid spending money on expensive engineering solutions, then wonder when the political costs tend to drive the scheme cost through the roof regardless.
Well said.
 

camflyer

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New plan is...err.. more buses.


I'm not against a congestion charge in principle but it all depends on how it is implemented. One of the problems is that the more successful the scheme is the less money it raises.
 

edwin_m

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I'm not against a congestion charge in principle but it all depends on how it is implemented. One of the problems is that the more successful the scheme is the less money it raises.
But in that case you may have increased public transport ridership enough that it covers its operating costs.
 

Cantab26

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New plan is...err.. more buses.


I'm not against a congestion charge in principle but it all depends on how it is implemented. One of the problems is that the more successful the scheme is the less money it raises.
So, we’re back to Cambus 2010 then?
 

Dunnyrail

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Noting that the plan is “GCP’s strategic vision for a “world-class, sustainable and joined up transport network””, so a bus is world class and sustainable then?

Car levies tend to affect lower paid people, that tends not to apply that much with high wages in Cambridge, though shop workers and lower paid workers that have had to move for cheeper housing will be disproportionally affected. The previous proposal for a working place parking levy was binned after consultation. Likely this one will be after another 10million like the alleged £10m spent on CAM is also binned.

Meanwhile,Cambridge traffic gets worse and a near billion is being spent dualling the A428 from Black Cat to Caxton. Money spent in the wrong way that could have been spent on a sustainable system that gets people out of their cars. Yes a Tram, cos Trams beat jams and get people out of cars.
 

Ianno87

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The previous proposal for a working place parking levy was binned after consultation.

If you're referring to the consultation in around 2014 or so, that wasn't a "Workplace parking levy" - it was a number of "Road closures" for which driving across them in peak periods would incur a £75 charge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

.

Meanwhile,Cambridge traffic gets worse and a near billion is being spent dualling the A428 from Black Cat to Caxton. Money spent in the wrong way that could have been spent on a sustainable system that gets people out of their cars. Yes a Tram, cos Trams beat jams and get people out of cars.

Or a Busway. Not as effective as a tram, but still effective. It's segregation and reliability of journey time that are key.
 

D365

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Busway to Cambourne makes a lot of sense.
The fact that the busway extension from Milton Road to Cambridge North, isn't a busway, is very telling. I'd place a bet on, other than for Northstowe, no more busways being built in Cambridgeshire.
 

Cantab26

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The fact that the busway extension from Milton Road to Cambridge North, isn't a busway, is very telling. I'd place a bet on, other than for Northstowe, no more busways being built in Cambridgeshire.
A busway, but not a guided busway.
 

Dunnyrail

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If you're referring to the consultation in around 2014 or so, that wasn't a "Workplace parking levy" - it was a number of "Road closures" for which driving across them in peak periods would incur a £75 charge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
wow what a great idea that was, but hardly surprising that it was rejected. Those that rejected it get all the traffic jams they deserve.
 

Ianno87

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wow what a great idea that was, but hardly surprising that it was rejected. Those that rejected it get all the traffic jams they deserve.

Frankly, the public transport improvements that were on offer in return weren’t nearly transformational enough, so I voted against it.

Basically a zillion more park and rides and some bus lanes.
 

rebmcr

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A bus route is what it is!
The new map claims that the Cambourne portion is segregated. It's unclear whether that means Guided or otherwise (and I can't see how there is room for any sort of segregation along Newmarket Road).

Certainly existing Bus Lane routes are not shown as segregated, but all of the Busway is...
 

Ianno87

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The new map claims that the Cambourne portion is segregated. It's unclear whether that means Guided or otherwise (and I can't see how there is room for any sort of segregation along Newmarket Road).

Certainly existing Bus Lane routes are not shown as segregated, but all of the Busway is...

The only way Newmarket Rd could be segregated would by reducing to a single carriageway for cars throughout (Which it basically is now) and giving bus priority at each set of lights.

The whole road is a total mess and needs redesign anyway.
 

Dunnyrail

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The new map claims that the Cambourne portion is segregated. It's unclear whether that means Guided or otherwise (and I can't see how there is room for any sort of segregation along Newmarket Road).

Certainly existing Bus Lane routes are not shown as segregated, but all of the Busway is...
I believe that Cam was going to be pretty well segregated though the proposals did suggest that drivers would be present to start with. That would have meant an element of non segregated roads till such time as so called autominus became feasible. Well with some recent events we probably know where that would have gone! Guided Busways appear to be out of fashion now so hardly surprising that an element of segregation and non will be in the new proposals. This of course mitigates any of the benefits as the busses will still be caught in the congestion that cars create making bus passengers think ‘well I might as well be in my own cocoon rather than suffering this’. Unfortunately so called transport planners rarely see or understand the benefits of a dedicated road (busway if you like as well) for public transport as they see their mission as getting cars to run freely, an impossible task without a 12 lane each way motorway. Ok I exaggerated there. But you get the drift. Plus of course a non guided busway road requires more kinetic envelope that a dedicated guided busway or tram line due to the fact that regukations demand a wider road for when there is a driver using a wheel to control where the bus goes. Something that affected the cost base of the CAM system that was never fully understood by the previous Combined Mayor in my view.
 

edwin_m

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I believe that Cam was going to be pretty well segregated though the proposals did suggest that drivers would be present to start with. That would have meant an element of non segregated roads till such time as so called autominus became feasible. Well with some recent events we probably know where that would have gone! Guided Busways appear to be out of fashion now so hardly surprising that an element of segregation and non will be in the new proposals. This of course mitigates any of the benefits as the busses will still be caught in the congestion that cars create making bus passengers think ‘well I might as well be in my own cocoon rather than suffering this’. Unfortunately so called transport planners rarely see or understand the benefits of a dedicated road (busway if you like as well) for public transport as they see their mission as getting cars to run freely, an impossible task without a 12 lane each way motorway. Ok I exaggerated there. But you get the drift. Plus of course a non guided busway road requires more kinetic envelope that a dedicated guided busway or tram line due to the fact that regukations demand a wider road for when there is a driver using a wheel to control where the bus goes. Something that affected the cost base of the CAM system that was never fully understood by the previous Combined Mayor in my view.
I think you're being a bit unfair about transport planners there. Most of the ones I've met are very bought in to the idea of sustainable transport and aware of the benefit of segregation - it's the politics and the funding (or the lack of) that prevents them doing as much as they'd like. Maybe you are thinking of traffic engineers?
 

Ianno87

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I think you're being a bit unfair about transport planners there. Most of the ones I've met are very bought in to the idea of sustainable transport and aware of the benefit of segregation - it's the politics and the funding (or the lack of) that prevents them doing as much as they'd like. Maybe you are thinking of traffic engineers?

Yep. Plenty of great transport planners. Funding and politics is the problem.
 

Dunnyrail

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I think you're being a bit unfair about transport planners there. Most of the ones I've met are very bought in to the idea of sustainable transport and aware of the benefit of segregation - it's the politics and the funding (or the lack of) that prevents them doing as much as they'd like. Maybe you are thinking of traffic engineers?
Quite likely them and the P lot that do not like spending money on anything other than Consultants and the Legal profession.
 

edwin_m

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Quite likely them and the P lot that do not like spending money on anything other than Consultants and the Legal profession.
Speaking as a consultant, I think there's a lot of benefit in a client contracting someone external to their organisation to complement their own skills and bring experience from elsewhere. Far better than asking a supplier what they would recommend...

And I don't believe anyone employs lawyers unless they have to. In the best case it's essential spending on contracts etc that could otherwise have been spent on something more concrete. In the worst case it means everything has gone pear-shaped.
 

rebmcr

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Speaking as a consultant, I think there's a lot of benefit in a client contracting someone external to their organisation to complement their own skills and bring experience from elsewhere. Far better than asking a supplier what they would recommend...

And I don't believe anyone employs lawyers unless they have to. In the best case it's essential spending on contracts etc that could otherwise have been spent on something more concrete. In the worst case it means everything has gone pear-shaped.
While I'm confident that someone such as yourself, engaging in constructive discussion, is not among them — I can absolutely attest first-hand to the existence of useless money-grabbers using 'consultant' as their name.
 

AM9

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While I'm confident that someone such as yourself, engaging in constructive discussion, is not among them — I can absolutely attest first-hand to the existence of useless money-grabbers using 'consultant' as their name.
Surely it's those that give them their contracts that should be sanctioned, - they don't just turn up and give themselves paid jobs. Look to those commissioning external contractors using public funds, (maybe spending too much times at the golf club or lodge ;).
 

rebmcr

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Surely it's those that give them their contracts that should be sanctioned, - they don't just turn up and give themselves paid jobs. Look to those commissioning external contractors using public funds, (maybe spending too much times at the golf club or lodge ;).
Indeed, though my experience is private sector, it's a good example of what can happen when accountability and scrutiny become scarce within a large organisation.
 

ashkeba

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getting cars to run freely, an impossible task without a 12 lane each way motorway.
Not even that is enough. See Toronto, Las Vegas or dozens of other north american cities blighted by supersized jams. Railways (including trams), busways and greenways are all so much more useful but the UK progress in building them is glacial.
 

HSTEd

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I'm currently in Cambridge, you've got no chance of a tram in the centre, even splitting it into one way lines on adjacent streets.

Just too many sharp bends, narrow roads and fancy buildings
 

eastdyke

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I'm currently in Cambridge, you've got no chance of a tram in the centre, even splitting it into one way lines on adjacent streets.

Just too many sharp bends, narrow roads and fancy buildings
Totally agree. All compounded of course by people, bikes and deliveries to those 'fancy buildings'.
 
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