Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Hadleywood]

Same old same old. We were told diesel was the way to go as they put out less whatever than petrol and everyone bought them. Only to be told they were dreadful things and to buy petrol or hybrid. Then we get told petrol and even hybrids have to go replaced by pure electric.
But research shows that to make the required amount of electricity if most people buy electric, enormous amounts of secondary pollution will be made as it's cloud cuckoo land to think wind and solar will give us all we need.
2 winters ago the UK energy industry told us that we were within 2% of capacity for several weeks due to cold weather, well won't it be fun when 30 (?) million people plug their cars in, mostly at the same time of day! What fun that will be when we are (trying to be) at 130% of capacity, perhaps!
I recycle everything i can, we are as green as we can be outside of my motoring interests, i walk to the gym, i go on holiday mostly by train and we get the shopping delivered if it's a big purchase. I keep car miles to a minimum, 4,800 last year.
But as long as it's legal, my American V10 is staying for the sheer driving pleasure it gives me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2021 ==

Electric cars and motorcycles have zero character also. Part of the reason for a car or bike is the pleasure and fun they can give. We had a Prius as a courtesy car and boy was it sterile. They also come with other disadvantages, like more wildlife collisions, birds and animals as they can't hear them coming. More pedestrians will be hit no doubt as well.

 

[AM9]

Same old same old. We were told diesel was the way to go as they put out less whatever than petrol and everyone bought them. Only to be told they were dreadful things and to buy petrol or hybrid. Then we get told petrol and even hybrids have to go replaced by pure electric.

We are told all sorts of things over time because 'things' change. There's no such thing as a 'once and for all' solution with a potentially polluting transport mode, - especially as engineering is constantly progressing with science discovering new problems.

But research shows that to make the required amount of electricity if most people buy electric, enormous amounts of secondary pollution will be made as it's cloud cuckoo land to think wind and solar will give us all we need.
2 winters ago the UK energy industry told us that we were within 2% of capacity for several weeks due to cold weather, well won't it be fun when 30 (?) million people plug their cars in, mostly at the same time of day! What fun that will be when we are (trying to be) at 130% of capacity, perhaps!

You need to read earlier parts of this thread where there are plenty of informed references to a) the rapid actual increase to date in sustainable electricity generation capacity in the UK, and b) the role of smart meters in domestic premises, smart charging capabilities in EVs and the current and future deployment of off street commercial fast charging stations.

I recycle everything i can, we are as green as we can be outside of my motoring interests, i walk to the gym, i go on holiday mostly by train and we get the shopping delivered if it's a big purchase. I keep car miles to a minimum, 4,800 last year.
But as long as it's legal, my American V10 is staying for the sheer driving pleasure it gives me.

Wow! Your indulgence in motoring pleasure negates all of your notion of "being as green as we can outside of my motoring interests" by driving what is almost certsinly a wasteful mode of transport for 4800 miles.

... Electric cars and motorcycles have zero character also. Part of the reason for a car or bike is the pleasure and fun they can give. We had a Prius as a courtesy car and boy was it sterile. They also come with other disadvantages, like more wildlife collisions, birds and animals as they can't hear them coming. More pedestrians will be hit no doubt as well.

Far more people (including drivers) are killed by road transport pollution now and CO2 rises in the future, than pedestrians who don't hear quieter vehicles approaching will be. Even if it wasn't so, claiming that as a justification for driving a car with character as opposed to one that is in your view 'sterile' is an strange argument.

 

[Bald Rick]

Same old same old...

But research shows that to make the required amount of electricity if most people buy electric, enormous amounts of secondary pollution will be made as it's cloud cuckoo land to think wind and solar will give us all we need.

Could you post a link to recent research that shows this?

Total GB electricity consumption is around 275 TWh per year. If the entire car fleet in the country went electric, it would consume roughly a further 60 TWh per year. To produce an extra 60 TWh per year, the country would need 18 GW of new offshore wind power installed.

As of today, there is 4 GW of new wind under construction, a further 12 GW consented, and to my knowledge at least another 10GW in planning prior to consent. And another 5GW onshore (in construction or consented). That’s just the wind power.

The issue is not going to be generating electricity. The issue will be storing it for when it is needed. Fortunately, electric cars have batteries, which will be part of the solution, as will variable charging, home storage, local grid storage, and more efficient use of the electricity we generate.

2 winters ago the UK energy industry told us that we were within 2% of capacity for several weeks due to cold weather, well won't it be fun when 30 (?) million people plug their cars in, mostly at the same time of day!

We were much closer than that earlier this year. But as explained upthread, 30 million people won’t all be plugging their cars in at the same time, not by a long way.

Electric cars and motorcycles have zero character also.

Some don’t. Some do. If you are comparing a Prius (which is awful, and a hybrid incidentally) with a V10, then I can understand that view. Go and try a Porsche Taycan and you’ll have a different view. It will go round corners rather better than most American V10s as well.

 

[37424]

No doubt some anti-EV poster(s) will be along soon to say that 50,000 isn't enough/will be in the wrong places/will be rip-off prices/etc..

Well I'm not anti EV as I'm getting one in the next few weeks, however having looked at the public charger situation in my area (West Yorks) its frankly a joke and a disgrace and for mass adoption there will need to be very rapid change indeed, not only in the number of chargers but also cost.

So there is one charger in each of the two small towns that are nearest to me which are both a couple of miles away so they are fast chargers but can only do one fast charge at a time, which I believe is quite common for most chargers, and one of the 2 bays is marked for Taxis only, these are free until the end of October they haven't revealed what the charges will be after that as yet. Then there is one in a pub a couple of miles away but that's 40p per Kwh which is too expensive in my view, and then there are chargers at two Carvery Pubs which are potentially a bit cheaper although I don't know how the parking arrangements for those work as they are ones where you have to put your reg plate in as you enter the pub or risk a big fine so do you have buy a meal or a drink every time you want to charge? they also put the barriers down when the Pub is shut. Then there is one charger at each side of the nearby Motorway service station, and a few more slow chargers doted about which are only any good if they are somewhere that you want to be for a few hours while you charge up.

So really that's just not good enough for mass adoption and how practical is it going to be for people without their own parking space where they can get a charger installed, we keep hearing talk of chargers in lamp posts and on the streets but given the overly cautious health and safety culture we have in country these days I carn't see that being very easy, so despite having bought one I'm still very much on the fence.

As for EV not being enjoyable to drive, well unless you can afford a gas guzzling performance car most cars are a bit dull to drive, and most EV's have good acceleration which I find quite enjoyable.

 

[Bald Rick]

So really that's just not good enough for mass adoption and how practical is it going to be for people without their own parking space where they can get a charger installed, we keep hearing talk of chargers in lamp posts and on the streets but given the overly cautious health and safety culture we have in country these days I carn't see that being very easy, so despite having bought one I'm still very much on the fence.

I walk past car chargers in lampposts every day!

 

[37424]

I walk past car chargers in lampposts every day!

Where? I've never seen any and ok assuming its possible they need to start getting them in and fast.

 

[Bald Rick]

Where? I've never seen any and ok assuming its possible they need to start getting them in and fast.

Central London

 

[341o2]

I don't see any in rural areas! People do live outside London
Plus we get power cuts. I was amused regarding complaints about a glamping site - a muddy field and campers suffered a power cut

 

[37424]

Central London

Well OK at least its possible but somehow I expected you to say Central London and that's a long way from Yorkshire, the government also need to try and persuade Tesla to open up their charging Network to other EV's which I believe is something Tesla are considering although I expect many Tesla owners won't like that

 

[AM9]

Well OK at least its possible but somehow I expected you to say Central London and that's a long way from Yorkshire, the government also need to try and persuade Tesla to open up their charging Network to other EV's which I believe is something Tesla are considering although I expect many Tesla owners won't like that

I think that chargers are appearing where the demand is, that's how it works as a business opportunity. The Congestion Zone, plus the general acceptance in the South-East that sticking with IC vehicles will become increasingly seen as antisocial is a major factor in the switch to clean propulsion.
I doubt that Tesla's network will change much, - in a few years, it will be crowded out by CCS chargers, the universal standard for the next couple of decades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2021 ==

As for EV not being enjoyable to drive, well unless you can afford a gas guzzling performance car most cars are a bit dull to drive, and most EV's have good acceleration which I find quite enjoyable.

I've always viewed driving private motor vehicles on public roads as a means of transport rather than a leisure activity. Inevitably, fast acceleration, high speeds and heavy braking are detrimental both in noise and air quality to those unfortuante enough to be near such activities

 

[paul1609]

Same old same old...




Could you post a link to recent research that shows this?

Total GB electricity consumption is around 275 TWh per year. If the entire car fleet in the country went electric, it would consume roughly a further 60 TWh per year. To produce an extra 60 TWh per year, the country would need 18 GW of new offshore wind power installed.

As of today, there is 4 GW of new wind under construction, a further 12 GW consented, and to my knowledge at least another 10GW in planning prior to consent. And another 5GW onshore (in construction or consented). That’s just the wind power.

The issue is not going to be generating electricity. The issue will be storing it for when it is needed. Fortunately, electric cars have batteries, which will be part of the solution, as will variable charging, home storage, local grid storage, and more efficient use of the electricity we generate.



We were much closer than that earlier this year. But as explained upthread, 30 million people won’t all be plugging their cars in at the same time, not by a long way.

The wind figures sound very impressive until you realise that they are peak theoretical values and that a typical turbine actually generates a usable third of that. UK generation of power by renewable sources actually fell by 16% in the first quarter of 2021 despite a small increase in peak capacity and is currently running 6% down.
I don't believe that transferring car transport to eV would strain the generating capacity but its very likely that much of the marginal generation is going to be by Gas Turbine.
Transferring heating from Gas to Electric I don't believe is possible without massive investment in the Grid and probably nuclear power plants.

 

[DustyBin]

I've always viewed driving private motor vehicles on public roads as a means of transport rather than a leisure activity. Inevitably, fast acceleration, high speeds and heavy braking are detrimental both in noise and air quality to those unfortuante enough to be near such activities

That’s how the majority of people see cars to be fair, however there are also a significant number of enthusiasts to whom cars and driving bring great enjoyment. In my case I’ve been a lifelong “petrol head” and have spent a great deal of time and money(!) pursuing my interest and would like to continue doing so.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts regarding heritage railways, and steam engines in particular? These are another source of pollution and are ultimately “unnecessary” are they not?

 

[Journeyman]

I don't see any in rural areas! People do live outside London
Plus we get power cuts. I was amused regarding complaints about a glamping site - a muddy field and campers suffered a power cut

I think the switch to EVs will be a very big problem in very remote areas. I recently did a hiking trip in north west Scotland that involved driving 220 miles from my home and parking up in a remote area with no infrastructure. An EV would currently make that a very difficult thing to do.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where in north west Scotland? Because there's already some coverage, admittedly not great, but it isn't exactly a desert and I suspect that it's not much worse than the petrol station coverage! No doubt as time goes on it will get better as well so even if today it's not perfect by this time next year? Or the year after? Or by 2030? It'll probably be better than petrol station coverage to be honest.




(Image shows charging points located in a range of locations in north west Scotland)

 

[Bald Rick]

The wind figures sound very impressive until you realise that they are peak theoretical values and that a typical turbine actually generates a usable third of that

Correct, and my calcs took that into account. About 32% for onshore, 40%+ for offshore.

Transferring heating from Gas to Electric I don't believe is possible without massive investment in the Grid and probably nuclear power plants.

I agree with that.

I think the switch to EVs will be a very big problem in very remote areas. I recently did a hiking trip in north west Scotland that involved driving 220 miles from my home and parking up in a remote area with no infrastructure. An EV would currently make that a very difficult thing to do.

Funnily enough last time I was in remote areas of NW Scotland I saw lots of EVs and chargers including at my hotel (in the middle of nowhere). Saw two EVs with Netherlands number plates on the A82 near Corran Ferry. They seem to have managed.

 

[37424]

Where in north west Scotland? Because there's already some coverage, admittedly not great, but it isn't exactly a desert and I suspect that it's not much worse than the petrol station coverage! No doubt as time goes on it will get better as well so even if today it's not perfect by this time next year? Or the year after? Or by 2030? It'll probably be better than petrol station coverage to be honest.


View attachment 102070

(Image shows charging points located in a range of locations in north west Scotland)

True but then there is frequently only one charger and if that charger is out of service which seems to be quite frequent with quite a few of them, then potentially you could be in big trouble with the distance needed to get to the next one, and off course if its occupied you could be in for a long stay.

I look at the chargers in my area and yes its probably just about ok for the demand at present but soon wont be if there is rapid adoption. I watch guy on you tube who tests all sorts of EV's in Norway, where they have higher EV adoption and they are already starting to experience queuing for chargers on the busy holiday routes in summer. I plan to take my EV on the NC500 at some point next year, I guess we will see how that works out.

 

[Journeyman]

I have to say that map suggests to me the situation is better than I realised, and hopefully it'll continue to improve. Looks like using an EV for my recent type of trip is more viable than I thought.

That said, I intend to keep my petrol car for a while yet, as I do think it's more eco-friendly to keep older vehicles running for long lives where possible.

 

[ainsworth74]

True but then there is frequently only one charger and if that charger is out of service which seems to be quite frequent with quite a few of them, then potentially you could be in big trouble with the distance needed to get to the next one, and off course if its occupied you could be in for a long stay.

I look at the chargers in my area and yes its probably just about ok for the demand at present but soon wont be if there is rapid adoption. I watch guy on you tube who tests all sorts of EV's in Norway, where they have higher EV adoption and they are already starting to experience queuing for chargers on the busy holiday routes in summer. I plan to take my EV on the NC500 at some point next year, I guess we will see how that works out.

Absolutely it will be (and possibly in some areas already is) an issue. But it's more to make the point that even today, from the fairly low level of adoption that we already have, that coverage is not bad. It's by no means perfect. Many locations on that map probably only have one or two sockets for charging with which is fine for now but obviously won't be in the future. But if here in 2021 where EV adoption is low level we already have coverage in the far reaches of Scotland as adoption ramps up we're clearly going to see it exploding not just in more built up areas but many of the more remote areas as well. Maybe not everywhere. I rather imagine somewhere like Lochinver may only even manage a handful of public chargers. But slightly larger areas like Ullapool, Mallaig or Portree where there's more tourist trade? I doubt it'll be many more years before they have an abundance of chargers.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have to say that map suggests to me the situation is better than I realised, and hopefully it'll continue to improve. Looks like using an EV for my recent type of trip is more viable than I thought.

I'm glad you think so

I do feel like a lot of reluctance is simply that people (and this isn't aimed directly at you!) haven't quite woken up to the reality that the EVs that have been sold in the last few years have got decent ranges sufficiently so that (outside of real edge cases like someone who is racking up a thousand miles per week or needs to go from Plymouth to Inverness every week or something) they can more than meet the needs of most people's everyday driving and the odd longer trip. And that the charging infrastructure, which isn't perfect by any means yet, is also increasingly extensive particularly in major urban areas but also deeper into rural areas as well.

In my view EVs have arrived and are perfectly viable for 90%+ use cases. People (and maybe a bit more infrastructure to be fair) just need to catch up

 

[AM9]

That’s how the majority of people see cars to be fair, however there are also a significant number of enthusiasts to whom cars and driving bring great enjoyment. In my case I’ve been a lifelong “petrol head” and have spent a great deal of time and money(!) pursuing my interest and would like to continue doing so.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts regarding heritage railways, and steam engines in particular? These are another source of pollution and are ultimately “unnecessary” are they not?

The last time that I used a heritage railway was during a holiday on the Dartmouth Steam Railway in June 2017 where I used it as a means to get from Paignton to Dartmouth and back. There were about 100 other passengers on the same trains.
The last time that I travelled behind a steam locomotive was on 11th September 2018 on the Cathedrals Express, hauled by a Stanier 8F from Hellifield to Carlisle and back. (it was hauled by a class 47 from Radlett to Hellifield and back. There were about 10 MKI & MKII coaches, probably about 75 - 80% full. I reckon that would have made me one of just over 300.
My thoughts on heritage operations are pretty neutral, - indeed, their direct environmental impact is probably far less than the road miles of those of their visitors who decide to drive to them (where a railway alternative is is available).

 

[Domh245]

indeed, their direct environmental impact is probably far less than the road miles of those of their visitors who decide to drive to them (where a railway alternative is is available).

Very likely. It's similar with motorsport events, the bigger emissions impact is the hundreds/thousands of cars travelling to the track (+ the lorries/planes taking freight all over the place + generators running paddock equipment and cameras, etc), and not the tens of cars driving on the track.

Of course, once there's been a substantial switch to EVs amongst the public and the rest of day-to-day life has been significantly decarbonised, then we can start to think about targeting the other emitters, but my personal hope (as a fan of heritage railways and motorsport!) is that we can tolerate these comparatively minor emissions, hopefully supplemented by improvements in carbon capture. A world where we insist on everyone and everything being absolutely zero emission is not a particularly enticing prospect

 

[AM9]

Very likely. It's similar with motorsport events, the bigger emissions impact is the hundreds/thousands of cars travelling to the track (+ the lorries/planes taking freight all over the place + generators running paddock equipment and cameras, etc), and not the tens of cars driving on the track.

Of course, once there's been a substantial switch to EVs amongst the public and the rest of day-to-day life has been significantly decarbonised, then we can start to think about targeting the other emitters, but my personal hope (as a fan of heritage railways and motorsport!) is that we can tolerate these comparatively minor emissions, hopefully supplemented by improvements in carbon capture. A world where we insist on everyone and everything being absolutely zero emission is not a particularly enticing prospect

It wasn't a criticism of the sport or heritage activity, - it was the attempt by @DustyBin to claim that heritage railways were gross polluters in their own right. I imagine that the vehicles in the average heritage railway car park on a normal open day contribute more CO2 emissions on that day than the railway activities do. Of course, when road vehicle emissions are back under control, that balance will change. That wouldn't include the nutters who watch high performance cars and then drive similarly polluting and antisocial car types emulating their 'heroes'.

 

[Domh245]

It wasn't a criticism of the sport or heritage activity, - it was the attempt by @DustyBin to claim that heritage railways were gross polluters in their own right. I imagine that the vehicles in the average heritage railway car park on a normal open day contribute more CO2 emissions on that day than the railway activities do. Of course, when road vehicle emissions are back under control, that balance will change. That wouldn't include the nutters who watch high performance cars and then drive similarly polluting and antisocial car types emulating their 'heroes'.

Out of interest, I've run some numbers to help quantify how polluting things are. Using the 2021 BEIS conversion factors (commercial coal) and 3.5t/day as a kettle's consumption (from BBC report of 3-4 t/day here) a day's steaming is ~8.4 tCO2e.

Taking "Average car, unknown fuel*" as a proxy road vehicle, at it's CO2e/mile you need a combined distance of almost 30,500 miles before the CO2 from the people driving to the railway are equal to the CO2 from that single steam engine. Based on what you commented about 100 passengers per train (and based on the current timetables for Dartmouth, ~5 rounds trips per day for each engine for 500 unique passengers), and average car occupancy of 2 (for this case, up from the average 1.4) for a total of 250 cars/day - that's just over 120 miles for each car which seems unlikely to me?

I'm quite surprised that it's tipped this way (steam engine more polluting than the cars that ferried passengers to it) but obviously this will vary depending on actual coal usage (a low speed trundle along a flat railway will use more than a higher speed railway or very hilly one!) and actual visitor numbers.

For comparison, an F1 Grand Prix (assuming all 20 cars finish, use all 110kg of fuel permitted, and run on pure mineral petrol) is on the order of 6.9 tCO2e or 6.5t if using average biofuel blend. Motorsport is relatively fortunate in that it can run biofuels (& blends) to help reduce CO2e, not sure how viable bio-alternatives are for heritage steam!

*based on UK fleet averages IIRC

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest, I've run some numbers to help quantify how polluting things are. Using the 2021 BEIS conversion factors (commercial coal) and 3.5t/day as a kettle's consumption (from BBC report of 3-4 t/day here) a day's steaming is ~8.4 tCO2e.

Taking "Average car, unknown fuel*" as a proxy road vehicle, at it's CO2e/mile you need a combined distance of almost 30,500 miles before the CO2 from the people driving to the railway are equal to the CO2 from that single steam engine. Based on what you commented about 100 passengers per train (and based on the current timetables for Dartmouth, ~5 rounds trips per day for each engine for 500 unique passengers), and average car occupancy of 2 (for this case, up from the average 1.4) for a total of 250 cars/day - that's just over 120 miles for each car which seems unlikely to me?

I'm quite surprised that it's tipped this way (steam engine more polluting than the cars that ferried passengers to it) but obviously this will vary depending on actual coal usage (a low speed trundle along a flat railway will use more than a higher speed railway or very hilly one!) and actual visitor numbers.

For comparison, an F1 Grand Prix (assuming all 20 cars finish, use all 110kg of fuel permitted, and run on pure mineral petrol) is on the order of 6.9 tCO2e or 6.5t if using average biofuel blend. Motorsport is relatively fortunate in that it can run biofuels (& blends) to help reduce CO2e, not sure how viable bio-alternatives are for heritage steam!

*based on UK fleet averages IIRC

Interesting, saved me the job of doing it, as I had a hunch that a typical steam engine would produce more CO2e than the cars of the visitors using it.

 

[paul1609]

Interesting stuff on the K&ESR our tank engines on a 66 mile diagram are using around 2 tonnes a day, this is hauling 5 MK 1 or equivalent coaches. I'd guess that 100 a train is low for a railway like the Paignton. Our 66 mile three trip train has a capacity of around 220 seats and we aim to achieve 80 percent of full. we believe that around 70 passengers is the minimum and below that we should consider low cost alternatives such as a dmu or even not running that train/ day.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Absolutely it will be (and possibly in some areas already is) an issue. But it's more to make the point that even today, from the fairly low level of adoption that we already have, that coverage is not bad. It's by no means perfect. Many locations on that map probably only have one or two sockets for charging with which is fine for now but obviously won't be in the future. But if here in 2021 where EV adoption is low level we already have coverage in the far reaches of Scotland as adoption ramps up we're clearly going to see it exploding not just in more built up areas but many of the more remote areas as well. Maybe not everywhere. I rather imagine somewhere like Lochinver may only even manage a handful of public chargers. But slightly larger areas like Ullapool, Mallaig or Portree where there's more tourist trade? I doubt it'll be many more years before they have an abundance of chargers.

It’s a potential issue in every charging location, right now. A glut of EV drivers, an out-of-order charger or one that won’t recognise your card are real factors that get in the way of adoption. Unless you drive a Tesla.

Also, the lack of destination chargers for long distance leisure travellers, like me. My current journey pattern involves an overnight ferry, a rural gite, 2 x 4 nights stays in apartments……etc. None of which have charging facilities.

Charging anxiety (not range) is a real issue with the promise of more chargers to come. A promise. Not there yet, albeit I do believe that it will improve in the next 5-10 years.

 

[PeterC]

It’s a potential issue in every charging location, right now. A glut of EV drivers, an out-of-order charger or one that won’t recognise your card are real factors that get in the way of adoption. Unless you drive a Tesla.

Also, the lack of destination chargers for long distance leisure travellers, like me. My current journey pattern involves an overnight ferry, a rural gite, 2 x 4 nights stays in apartments……etc. None of which have charging facilities.

Charging anxiety (not range) is a real issue with the promise of more chargers to come. A promise. Not there yet, albeit I do believe that it will improve in the next 5-10 years.

Reminds me of my last three long distance journeys this year. There were no charging facilities at the destination or at any of the stopping points.

 

[DustyBin]

It wasn't a criticism of the sport or heritage activity, - it was the attempt by @DustyBin to claim that heritage railways were gross polluters in their own right. I imagine that the vehicles in the average heritage railway car park on a normal open day contribute more CO2 emissions on that day than the railway activities do. Of course, when road vehicle emissions are back under control, that balance will change. That wouldn't include the nutters who watch high performance cars and then drive similarly polluting and antisocial car types emulating their 'heroes'.

I wasn’t attempting to claim anything, I asked you what you thought about emissions from steam locomotives for the simple reason that this is a rail enthusiasts forum. As it happens you’ve confirmed what I suspected, i.e. it’s fine because you like steam locomotives whereas you don’t like cars. Or in other words, do as I say not as I do. You also appear to underestimate just how polluting steam locomotives are (heritage diesels aren’t exactly clean either). Are the “nutters” driving the cars you so despise really that different to people who enjoy driving old trains? Or vintage buses maybe? Or how about people who fly Spitfires and Hurricanes? Just because you don’t like something that doesn’t make it wrong.

 

[AM9]

I wasn’t attempting to claim anything, I asked you what you thought about emissions from steam locomotives for the simple reason that this is a rail enthusiasts forum. As it happens you’ve confirmed what I suspected, i.e. it’s fine because you like steam locomotives whereas you don’t like cars. Or in other words, do as I say not as I do. You also appear to underestimate just how polluting steam locomotives are (heritage diesels aren’t exactly clean either). Are the “nutters” driving the cars you so despise really that different to people who enjoy driving old trains? Or vintage buses maybe? Or how about people who fly Spitfires and Hurricanes? Just because you don’t like something that doesn’t make it wrong.

I think that you have misunderstood my posts. The trip on the Dartmouth Steam Railway was using it as a mode of public transport. The holiday was taken entirely using public transport. We could have driven the 470 mile round trip plus all local trips using IC cars, - that would have added say 600 miles, burning about 60 litres of petrol in the process. So our contribution to all the vehicles used, i.e., electric trains from St Albans to Farringdon, LU electric to Paddington, GWR to Paington (no choice on the diesel then), and local journeys all by bus, was as two passengers on services that ran anyway and in every case, were shared with many others. That is the difference between emissions from public transport and private motoring on leisure activities.

 

[DustyBin]

I think that you have misunderstood my posts. The trip on the Dartmouth Steam Railway was using it as a mode of public transport. The holiday was taken entirely using public transport. We could have driven the 470 mile round trip plus all local trips using IC cars, - that would have added say 600 miles, burning about 60 litres of petrol in the process. So our contribution to all the vehicles used, i.e., electric trains from St Albans to Farringdon, LU electric to Paddington, GWR to Paington (no choice on the diesel then), and local journeys all by bus, was as two passengers on services that ran anyway and were shared with many others. That is the difference between emissions from public transport and private motoring on leisure activities.

I think we’re debating at cross purposes to an extent here. The point I’m trying to get across is that the most polluting cars (especially classic cars) tend to cover low mileages and are effectively just toys. Some modern cars fall into the same category, in fact I collected my Focus brand new in January 2017 and it’s covered less than 5000 miles since! Owning and driving these cars isn’t an issue as far as I’m concerned as they’re relatively few and far between and often don’t get used that much. The “battle” we should be focusing on getting everyday commuters, the school run brigade etc. into EVs as it makes sense; the only real downside currently is the cost of EVs themselves. I’ve stated previously that I will go electric for my daily/company car in the relatively near future, however I’m holding out for (hopefully) more interesting EV options and most importantly a better charging infrastructure.

Going back to your post above, @Domh245 has provided some interesting analysis of the pollution caused by steam locomotives relative to a car park full of modern cars (the result is what I would have expected to be honest). I take your point, i.e. that you used the steam hauled service as public transport and it was running anyway, however it was only steam hauled because people choose to restore, maintain and operate such machines. It’s a hobby and is no different to car enthusiasts choosing to drive a particular car. I only used it as an example of a shared interest that isn’t great for the environment but seems to attract a lot less criticism for some reason.