Manchester Victoria or Manchester Piccadilly

[Bletchleyite]

Fair comment regarding King's Cross. I haven't had much success in finding a cost figure for the 'new' roof on its own although I note that the whole modernisation cost £800,000,000 for the Underground and £547,000,000 for the mainline station at c. 2010 prices, planned and delivered over 14 years.

In contrast the Manchester Victoria makeover is quoted as £44,000,000 with a modest £20,000,000 for the roof. [Various items grabbed off the internet. Not claiming to be highly accurate.]

I suppose that you get what you pay for; although if I had loads of money to throw at Victoria I think that I'd have other priorities than blowing it all on a swanky roof.

I don't think the problem of Victoria can really be solved unless the Arena is demolished. Whatever you do to it before that happens is just turd-polishing.

 

[Lampshade]

I have a choice between both from where I live, but it’s 13/14 at Piccadilly, so I’d say Victoria.

For somewhere like Huddersfield/Leeds I’d say Piccadilly main shed, irrespective of faster services.

 

[railfan100]

Honestly what is left of Victoria is soulless and miserable, very limited services compared to decades past. Anyone that has not been there since the 70's or 80's I would suggest it is not worth going to see it today. It used to be a run down but very atmospheric station. Completely depressing to see the mess that uses the Victoria name today. Running so many services through to Stalybridge and Rochdale is simply due to operational issues that the station does not have the capacity that the city needs.

 

[Purple Orange]

Honestly what is left of Victoria is soulless and miserable, very limited services compared to decades past. Anyone that has not been there since the 70's or 80's I would suggest it is not worth going to see it today. It used to be a run down but very atmospheric station. Completely depressing to see the mess that uses the Victoria name today. Running so many services through to Stalybridge and Rochdale is simply due to operational issues that the station does not have the capacity that the city needs.

Run down but atmospheric still results in a miserable station.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To what extent (if any) might the "ambiance" of Manchester Victoria be instantly improved if only electric units were to serve the station? (Probably not going to happen anytime soon, but hey?!)

 

[Efini92]

To what extent (if any) might the "ambiance" of Manchester Victoria be instantly improved if only electric units were to serve the station? (Probably not going to happen anytime soon, but hey?!)

The services would be pretty limited if it was electric only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Run down but atmospheric still results in a miserable station.

Still miserable, but in a different way. Really dislike the place.

The Arena needs to go and a proper 21st century station be built.

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The services would be pretty limited if it was electric only.

If Northern had ordered bi mode instead of DMU it would have helped massively. Turn the OHLE off to sandblast the concrete and make a feature of it with uplighters. The Den Haag Tramtunnel does that to great effect.

 

[Efini92]

Still miserable, but in a different way. Really dislike the place.

The Arena needs to go and a proper 21st century station be built.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==



If Northern had ordered bi mode instead of DMU it would have helped massively. Turn the OHLE off to sandblast the concrete and make a feature of it with uplighters. The Den Haag Tramtunnel does that to great effect.

The arena should never have been built there in the first place. There’s plenty of vacant land further north or east they could’ve used.

You’re right about the bi mode, unfortunately they were too busy converting 319’s to diesel power.

 

[plugwash]

If Northern had ordered bi mode instead of DMU it would have helped massively. Turn the OHLE off to sandblast the concrete and make a feature of it with uplighters. The Den Haag Tramtunnel does that to great effect.

Unless they had ordered enough bi-modes to replace most/all of the fleet or had rearranged things to focus all the new trains on victoria, I doubt it would have helped that much. I suspect the emissions from the modern diesels are minimal compared to the old sprinters that still make up a substantial part of Northern's fleet.

 

[nw1]

My experience of Piccadilly is much greater than Victoria, and my experience of Piccadilly peaked sharply in the 1990s with few visits either before or since. I last visited both in 2014, passing through pretty quickly. I may have only ever visited Victoria twice - in 1997 and 2014 - and both occasions for arrival only.

So with that caveat in mind, Piccadilly comes across much larger and more comfortable, while Victoria, both in the late 90s and 2014, seemed much more down-at-heel, but atmospheric. I used it returning from Entwistle after a walk across the moors from Blackrod in late December 1997, on an ex-Clitheroe service, a single 153 if I remember right; and again in early 2014 arriving on the ex-Huddersfield stopper. I think on the 1997 occasion it was pretty quiet and restricted to various Sprinters and Pacers doing Clitheroe, Rochdale, and Oldham circulars, these interworking with each other (the ex-Clitheroe then went on to either Rochdale or Oldham, I forget which).

Arriving Entwistle in near-darkness (remembering what time of year it was, you have little choice in December if you've travelled some distance to get there) and waiting at the quiet station was pretty atmospheric. ISTR there were some delays and the single-track section was causing problems, particularly as it was peak and there were 2tph (an assortment of 153s, 150s and Pacers).

 

[Purple Orange]

Still miserable, but in a different way. Really dislike the place.

The Arena needs to go and a proper 21st century station be built.

Victoria will never be that sort of station again. However it needs to be in the context of what the city needs. The city is lacking in terminal capacity for services from the west and will be getting more terminal & through capacity for services from the south and north east, however Victoria doesnt need to be the location for more capacity from the west. Victoria will be a medium sized regional station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Victoria will never be that sort of station again. However it needs to be in the context of what the city needs. The city is lacking in terminal capacity for services from the west and will be getting more terminal & through capacity for services from the south and north east, however Victoria doesnt need to be the location for more capacity from the west. Victoria will be a medium sized regional station.

I suspect it now has more trains, including more TPEs, than it had when it looked like that.

I remain in hope that the new Arena in Eastlands will kill off the one at Vic (which is now very down at heel and tatty) allowing its demolition and the replacement of the station with something decent - the demand for large Arenas is minimal - look how the new Wembley has killed off the MK Bowl and they aren't even in the same town. Vic was fine when it was the equivalent of Liverpool Central but with 2-car DMUs (and I'd certainly say it's nicer than Liverpool Central), but now it's an InterCity station again and needs to be more like one.

 

[Efini92]

I suspect it now has more trains, including more TPEs, than it had when it looked like that.

I remain in hope that the new Arena in Eastlands will kill off the one at Vic (which is now very down at heel and tatty) allowing its demolition and the replacement of the station with something decent - the demand for large Arenas is minimal - look how the new Wembley has killed off the MK Bowl and they aren't even in the same town. Vic was fine when it was the equivalent of Liverpool Central but with 2-car DMUs (and I'd certainly say it's nicer than Liverpool Central), but now it's an InterCity station again and needs to be more like one.

I’d love them to rip down the arena but I can’t see it happening.

 

[Purple Orange]

I suspect it now has more trains, including more TPEs, than it had when it looked like that.

I remain in hope that the new Arena in Eastlands will kill off the one at Vic (which is now very down at heel and tatty) allowing its demolition and the replacement of the station with something decent - the demand for large Arenas is minimal - look how the new Wembley has killed off the MK Bowl and they aren't even in the same town. Vic was fine when it was the equivalent of Liverpool Central but with 2-car DMUs (and I'd certainly say it's nicer than Liverpool Central), but now it's an InterCity station again and needs to be more like one.

The current arena will stay. They whole industry in Manchester is too strong.

 

[yorksrob]

I had half an hour to wait at Vic yesterday and sat on a bench on the concourse. I found it a perfectly pleasant place to wait.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d love them to rip down the arena but I can’t see it happening.

I don't know, we shall see.

The current arena will stay. They whole industry in Manchester is too strong.

The current trend is away from "superbands" and much more diverse, so smaller arenas like the Academy at the uni (interestingly nothing to do with the rest of the O2 Academy chain and wholly run by the students' union; the uni had the name first) are probably more in demand. So I don't think this is a foregone conclusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==

I had half an hour to wait at Vic yesterday and sat on a bench on the concourse. I found it a perfectly pleasant place to wait.

It barely has any concourse, and I don't recall seeing any benches!

To be fair, it's not the only major station with utterly woeful facilities - Bristol Temple Meads is as bad (it doesn't have a concourse at all as such), and unlike Victoria it's nowhere near anything else. But as the second major station in what is increasingly England's second city it really isn't good enough.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know, we shall see.



The current trend is away from "superbands" and much more diverse, so smaller arenas like the Academy at the uni (interestingly nothing to do with the rest of the O2 Academy chain and wholly run by the students' union; the uni had the name first) are probably more in demand. So I don't think this is a foregone conclusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==



It barely has any concourse, and I don't recall seeing any benches!

To be fair, it's not the only major station with utterly woeful facilities - Bristol Temple Meads is as bad (it doesn't have a concourse at all as such), and unlike Victoria it's nowhere near anything else. But as the second major station in what is increasingly England's second city it really isn't good enough.

I wouldn't say woefull. There are loos, a barbers, several coffee outlets, a newsagents, a baker, a bar. And plenty of benches.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I had half an hour to wait at Vic yesterday and sat on a bench on the concourse. I found it a perfectly pleasant place to wait.

The concourse area before you get to go through the ticket barriers at Manchester Victoria is quite light and airy with some decent enough facilities. Down on the island platforms (4+5) though, is an entirely different matter!

 

[yorksrob]

The concourse area before you get to go through the ticket barriers at Manchester Victoria is quite light and airy with some decent enough facilities. Down on the island platforms (4+5) though, is an entirely different matter!

Yes, thats true. The old Victoria looked much better in that respect.

 

[Grumpy Git]

To be fair, it's not the only major station with utterly woeful facilities - Bristol Temple Meads is as bad (it doesn't have a concourse at all as such), and unlike Victoria it's nowhere near anything else. But as the second major station in what is increasingly England's second city it really isn't good enough.

Off topic, but Crewe being a prime example.

 

[yorksrob]

Off topic, but Crewe being a prime example.

To be honest, Crewe isn't some major metropolis. Yes it's important as a hub, but it's never going to require vast numbers of outlets.

 

[Chester1]

Victoria appears to be liked by pragmatists and hated by romantics. They have done a good job with the constraints of the site. Its much better to radically improve the entrance area, non platform facilities, the tram stop and terminating platforms than to not bother because the four through platforms are lousy. Maybe the arena might close but unless that happens Victoria will never be the station many want it to be (again). More modest improvements would be a waiting room next to platform 2 (the space is currently used for storage for materials for upgrade and electrification works) and replacing the canopies over platforms 3 and 4 with transparent canopies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, Crewe isn't some major metropolis. Yes it's important as a hub, but it's never going to require vast numbers of outlets.

Crewe is primarily an interchange. It's destination city centres that need a wide range of facilities because people want somewhere to spend time if they get there before their train is due. That wasn't as important when it was just Pacers and Sprinters on very local routes, but now TPE is back it's different.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==

I wouldn't say woefull. There are loos, a barbers, several coffee outlets, a newsagents, a baker, a bar. And plenty of benches.

More than I remember, but I certainly remember that the toilets were insufficient in number and disgustingly filthy and damaged.

I find "landside" rather cramped and narrow, more a slightly wide corridor than a true concourse. Before the ticket barriers the area they run down the middle of was a wide open space and felt more like one, but the barriers and Arena bridge have knackered that.

 

[yorksrob]

Vic could do with somewhere to get a greasy burger, now that Maccy D's has gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vic could do with somewhere to get a greasy burger, now that Maccy D's has gone.

Much as I like a greasy burger, it's one facility I'm happy not to have on stations, because it causes people to eat them on trains, and they stink.

 

[yorksrob]

More than I remember, but I certainly remember that the toilets were insufficient in number and disgustingly filthy and damaged.

I find "landside" rather cramped and narrow, more a slightly wide corridor than a true concourse.

I can remember whan the toilets were lovely and new. They obviously get heavy wear and tear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much as I like a greasy burger, it's one facility I'm happy not to have on stations, because it causes people to eat them on trains, and they stink.

On that subject, I recall Merseyrail used to have posters in the 80s saying "don't eat cooked food on trains" (that actual wording). Slightly odd as most food is cooked in some way, just some of it served cold. But they had a point - chips in particular stink the train out. (Less so the burger itself, it's just a beef sandwich).

I can remember whan the toilets were lovely and new. They obviously get heavy wear and tear.

They do, but the TOC needs to maintain them accordingly (using that as an excuse is like the European excuses for putting graffiti-covered trains out in service, something we don't tolerate here). I recall when Liverpool Lime St went from TOC managed to Network Rail, and the quality of them improved almost overnight. Perhaps Vic needs to be a NR Major Station - or perhaps in the brave new world of GBR they should all be maintained nationally?

 

[yorksrob]

On that subject, I recall Merseyrail used to have posters in the 80s saying "don't eat cooked food on trains" (that actual wording). Slightly odd as most food is cooked in some way, just some of it served cold. But they had a point - chips in particular stink the train out. (Less so the burger itself, it's just a beef sandwich).

That's a slippery slope. I'm 100% against banning the consumption of cooked food on trains.

 

[Ianno87]

That's a slippery slope. I'm 100% against banning the consumption of cooked food on trains.

Particularly as many trains sell cooked food on them!

Bear in mind the circumstances of the person travelling, it may be the only chance they have a hot meal that day (as was once the case for me when I had to jump on a Pendolino at 20 minutes' notice after my Dad was suddenly hospitalised).

 

[Philip]

Perhaps I should have added Oxford Road in the original question/OP, since this station also has a large footfall and many trains serving it.

Nevertheless, what do people think of Oxford Road, either on its own or comparing with the other two?