LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[800001]

That is what I thought.
So they are juggling sets with only 1 spare DVT and a single spare coach?

I think they also gaining another dvt and another coach.

 

[Fuzzytop]

That's what I've seen, two DVTs 82215 and 82222 were in the consist with the vehicles due to make up the eighth set.

 

[Swimbar]

I think they also gaining another dvt and another coach.

It's very easy to blame all the problems on the Mk4 sets but Azuma availability is clearly a big issue some mornings!

 

[800001]

It's very easy to blame all the problems on the Mk4 sets but Azuma availability is clearly a big issue some mornings!

Correct. Azuna availability is absolutely ridiculous. The 801/2 should be providing 26 per day for service, many a day Hitachi manage to provide 17. That is the main reason 5 car sets turn up on the Edinburgh services.

 

[DanNCL]

It's long known that the sets are better suited to longer semi fast/fast runs with the less stops than simply being confined to Leeds services. BUT I am aware of the main reasons behind it. If those obstacles could be overcome still then and just a few Leeds services to get sets off and back onto NL would be better for performance and give more options plus keep competency and the main maintenance at its current base. Time will tell if that happens. Doesn't look like anything will change YET.

The best option would have been that, but with Edinburgh crew knowledge lapsing that isn't really feasible anymore, as that would require not one but two crew bases to have traction refreshers. Having the bare minimum amount of booked work to keep up crew knowledge to Newcastle, or even just diagramming Newcastle based crews to work them on York terminating services to keep up crew knowledge, would be a huge help during disruption. Either way though it's difficult to deny that this whole situation has been handled poorly, certainly from a public perspective anyway. It's been the same old attitude that I've come to expect from across the railway, the sooner the railway realises it's there as a public service and not as a giant toy set for the DFT the better.

I would love to know where you get this idea that 5 cars or cancellations of services heading to Newcastle is all down to mk4s not been allowed to go north of York.
Are you there when decided are made? Do you know what had been considered prior to these the go happening? Can you say that every time that happens is down to a refusal to use a Mk4?
Can you list these 'multiple' occasions? I bet someone else can come up with the official reason why decisions were made, rather than you 'assuming' it is all down to mk4s

Also, if a mk4 was sent to York, then all you are doing is moving a cancellation to a Leeds service, where reservations at times are equally as high as Edinburgh services.

I never said *all* short forms and cancellations to Newcastle were down to inflexibility with the Mark 4 sets. Many of them aren't. But some of them are, and those ones can be prevented. From now on I will be recording a log of all short forms, I'm regretting not having done so already as I had a hunch I'd be challenged on this.

Moving a Mark 4 set to a York service does not automatically move a cancellation to a Leeds service. During disruption at present these sets often sit at Kings Cross doing nothing. Sending it to York would often be instead of the set sitting doing nothing at Kings Cross. When it is down to being a choice between which service to cancel, overall likely passenger numbers need to be looked at rather than simply reservation levels, along with likely loading levels on onward services, and also splitting services where it helps too. (the other day the signalling problems near Peterborough brought many LNER services north of Newcastle to a halt, that disruption could have been contained to a much smaller area had some services been split either at Newcastle or York) Passengers would rather change trains mid journey than be delayed by several hours.

It also should be remembered that reservations often do not match actual loading levels - reservation levels don't take into account no shows (which will be happening more than ever now with the ease of making a reservation online for free), nor do they take into account walk up passengers without reservations, which whilst there are a large number of them between Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds, generally there are more of them on the Newcastle route, especially north of York. This was one of the few things Virgin got right with Seat Sensa on the HSTs and Mark 4s as it provided a much more accurate picture of what was actually happening with loadings. I made this point about reservations and ticket sales not automatically equalling the actual passenger numbers in the timetable consultation in response to LNER's ridiculous claim about passenger numbers for Retford - Newark, I can't remember the exact number they quoted for it now but it was way below what I've observed with my own eyes every single time I've been on a service between the two stations.

Since when have they had 8 sets?

They have 7 at the moment. Another set is being made from 2 sets from worksop. This will become NL16.

NL16 is already on LNER's books as the 8th set. I didn't claim 8 operational sets, simply 8 sets in the fleet.

That is what I thought.
So they are juggling sets with only 1 spare DVT and a single spare coach?

I think they also gaining another dvt and another coach.

12 extra vehicles joined the fleet. This was the equivalent of a full set plus a spare DVT and a spare TSOE (Coach B).

Mark 4 sets can (and often do) run with a carriage missing. Not ideal but by far a better option than cancelling a diagram.

It's very easy to blame all the problems on the Mk4 sets but Azuma availability is clearly a big issue some mornings!

It definitely is a huge issue, and I hope Hitachi are getting huge penalties for it. If Azuma availability was better it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue not having more Mark 4 sets in service as there would be the stock to cover for them.

Correct. Azuna availability is absolutely ridiculous. The 801/2 should be providing 26 per day for service, many a day Hitachi manage to provide 17. That is the main reason 5 car sets turn up on the Edinburgh services.

It's the main reason there are any 5 car sets running solo away from the Lincoln services in the first place. As I mention further up in this post it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue not having more Mark 4 sets running if the 80xs had the contracted availability levels.

 

[800001]

The best option would have been that, but with Edinburgh crew knowledge lapsing that isn't really feasible anymore, as that would require not one but two crew bases to have traction refreshers. Having the bare minimum amount of booked work to keep up crew knowledge to Newcastle, or even just diagramming Newcastle based crews to work them on York terminating services to keep up crew knowledge, would be a huge help during disruption. Either way though it's difficult to deny that this whole situation has been handled poorly, certainly from a public perspective anyway. It's been the same old attitude that I've come to expect from across the railway, the sooner the railway realises it's there as a public service and not as a giant toy set for the DFT the better.


I never said *all* short forms and cancellations to Newcastle were down to inflexibility with the Mark 4 sets. Many of them aren't. But some of them are, and those ones can be prevented. From now on I will be recording a log of all short forms, I'm regretting not having done so already as I had a hunch I'd be challenged on this.

Moving a Mark 4 set to a York service does not automatically move a cancellation to a Leeds service. During disruption at present these sets often sit at Kings Cross doing nothing. Sending it to York would often be instead of the set sitting doing nothing at Kings Cross. When it is down to being a choice between which service to cancel, overall likely passenger numbers need to be looked at rather than simply reservation levels, along with likely loading levels on onward services, and also splitting services where it helps too. (the other day the signalling problems near Peterborough brought many LNER services north of Newcastle to a halt, that disruption could have been contained to a much smaller area had some services been split either at Newcastle or York) Passengers would rather change trains mid journey than be delayed by several hours.

It also should be remembered that reservations often do not match actual loading levels - reservation levels don't take into account no shows (which will be happening more than ever now with the ease of making a reservation online for free), nor do they take into account walk up passengers without reservations, which whilst there are a large number of them between Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds, generally there are more of them on the Newcastle route, especially north of York. This was one of the few things Virgin got right with Seat Sensa on the HSTs and Mark 4s as it provided a much more accurate picture of what was actually happening with loadings. I made this point about reservations and ticket sales not automatically equalling the actual passenger numbers in the timetable consultation in response to LNER's ridiculous claim about passenger numbers for Retford - Newark, I can't remember the exact number they quoted for it now but it was way below what I've observed with my own eyes every single time I've been on a service between the two stations.



NL16 is already on LNER's books as the 8th set. I didn't claim 8 operational sets, simply 8 sets in the fleet.



12 extra vehicles joined the fleet. This was the equivalent of a full set plus a spare DVT and a spare TSOE (Coach B).

Mark 4 sets can (and often do) run with a carriage missing. Not ideal but by far a better option than cancelling a diagram.


It definitely is a huge issue, and I hope Hitachi are getting huge penalties for it. If Azuma availability was better it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue not having more Mark 4 sets in service as there would be the stock to cover for them.


It's the main reason there are any 5 car sets running solo away from the Lincoln services in the first place. As I mention further up in this post it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue not having more Mark 4 sets running if the 80xs had the contracted availability levels.

They may have 8 sets on books, but 2 sets including the NL16 set are at Wabtec

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

The best option would have been that, but with Edinburgh crew knowledge lapsing that isn't really feasible anymore, as that would require not one but two crew bases to have traction refreshers. Having the bare minimum amount of booked work to keep up crew knowledge to Newcastle, or even just diagramming Newcastle based crews to work them on York terminating services to keep up crew knowledge, would be a huge help during disruption. Either way though it's difficult to deny that this whole situation has been handled poorly, certainly from a public perspective anyway. It's been the same old attitude that I've come to expect from across the railway, the sooner the railway realises it's there as a public service and not as a giant toy set for the DFT the better.


I never said *all* short forms and cancellations to Newcastle were down to inflexibility with the Mark 4 sets. Many of them aren't. But some of them are, and those ones can be prevented. From now on I will be recording a log of all short forms, I'm regretting not having done so already as I had a hunch I'd be challenged on this.

Moving a Mark 4 set to a York service does not automatically move a cancellation to a Leeds service. During disruption at present these sets often sit at Kings Cross doing nothing. Sending it to York would often be instead of the set sitting doing nothing at Kings Cross. When it is down to being a choice between which service to cancel, overall likely passenger numbers need to be looked at rather than simply reservation levels, along with likely loading levels on onward services, and also splitting services where it helps too. (the other day the signalling problems near Peterborough brought many LNER services north of Newcastle to a halt, that disruption could have been contained to a much smaller area had some services been split either at Newcastle or York) Passengers would rather change trains mid journey than be delayed by several hours.

It also should be remembered that reservations often do not match actual loading levels - reservation levels don't take into account no shows (which will be happening more than ever now with the ease of making a reservation online for free), nor do they take into account walk up passengers without reservations, which whilst there are a large number of them between Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds, generally there are more of them on the Newcastle route, especially north of York. This was one of the few things Virgin got right with Seat Sensa on the HSTs and Mark 4s as it provided a much more accurate picture of what was actually happening with loadings. I made this point about reservations and ticket sales not automatically equalling the actual passenger numbers in the timetable consultation in response to LNER's ridiculous claim about passenger numbers for Retford - Newark, I can't remember the exact number they quoted for it now but it was way below what I've observed with my own eyes every single time I've been on a service between the two stations.



NL16 is already on LNER's books as the 8th set. I didn't claim 8 operational sets, simply 8 sets in the fleet.



12 extra vehicles joined the fleet. This was the equivalent of a full set plus a spare DVT and a spare TSOE (Coach B).

Mark 4 sets can (and often do) run with a carriage missing. Not ideal but by far a better option than cancelling a diagram.


It definitely is a huge issue, and I hope Hitachi are getting huge penalties for it. If Azuma availability was better it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue not having more Mark 4 sets in service as there would be the stock to cover for them.


It's the main reason there are any 5 car sets running solo away from the Lincoln services in the first place. As I mention further up in this post it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue not having more Mark 4 sets running if the 80xs had the contracted availability levels.

In all the disruption with in the last year, I am not aware of any times where the only set to send north to Newcastle/Edinburgh was a MK4, there had always been Azumas to use (even if just a 5 car). This notion of yours that mk4s to Newcastle is the only thing that could happen is a fantasy.
There has been many a time a mk4 has done a York diagram instead of a azuma due to disruption, likewise they also divert mk4s to York if Leeds line is blocked.
I am sure LNER would love your advice on how to deal with disruption, as it sounds like you know how to deal with it better than they do.
And yes I know, lner do not always get things right, far from it on many occasions.

 

[yorksrob]

When one does catch a mk 4 set, it's apparent that the Mallard interior is light years ahead of the modern alternative in terms of passenger comfort.

 

[DanNCL]

They may have 8 sets on books, but 2 sets including the NL16 set are at Wabtec

CrossCountry have 12 HST power cars, 2 of which are on heavy overhaul but it doesn't change the fact that the overall fleet size is what availability is measured off. I was right to calculate availability off a fleet size of 8, but even if I were to calculate it off 7 sets rather than 8, the percentage is still below 50%.

In all the disruption with in the last year, I am not aware of any times where the only set to send north to Newcastle/Edinburgh was a MK4, there had always been Azumas to use (even if just a 5 car). This notion of yours that mk4s to Newcastle is the only thing that could happen is a fantasy.

I'm not aware of it ever being offically given as the reason, but LNER are very good at masking the true cause of service cancellations and short forms with a very generic "offical reason", so the true number of occasions where this has happened will never be known neither internally nor externally as it never goes on the record as such, there's always something else to blame it on. You admit that there have been occasions where a 5 car 80x has gone to Edinburgh with a Mark 4 set going to Leeds - I too am aware of several such occasions, having been caught up on several overcrowded 5 car 80xs on such services. When it's then reported by others that the Mark 4 set that went to Leeds 3 minutes behind out of Kings Cross was fairly quiet, it becomes pretty clear that not sending the Mark 4 set to Newcastle was solely out of operational convenience (dare I say cost cutting as no doubt that is part of it, keeping Newcastle crews trained on the sets costs money) and was certainly not the right thing to do for the customers.

 

[800001]

CrossCountry have 12 HST power cars, 2 of which are on heavy overhaul but it doesn't change the fact that the overall fleet size is what availability is measured off. I was right to calculate availability off a fleet size of 8, but even if I were to calculate it off 7 sets rather than 8, the percentage is still below 50%.


I'm not aware of it ever being offically given as the reason, but LNER are very good at masking the true cause of service cancellations and short forms with a very generic "offical reason", so the true number of occasions where this has happened will never be known neither internally nor externally as it never goes on the record as such, there's always something else to blame it on. You admit that there have been occasions where a 5 car 80x has gone to Edinburgh with a Mark 4 set going to Leeds - I too am aware of several such occasions, having been caught up on several overcrowded 5 car 80xs on such services. When it's then reported by others that the Mark 4 set that went to Leeds 3 minutes behind out of Kings Cross was fairly quiet, it becomes pretty clear that not sending the Mark 4 set to Newcastle was solely out of operational convenience (dare I say cost cutting as no doubt that is part of it, keeping Newcastle crews trained on the sets costs money) and was certainly not the right thing to do for the customers.

I would love to see these empty Leeds services you quote.
Also, lner are very honest with reason with short forms or cancellations and will quote reason as more trains needing maintenance or lack of train crew etc.
I also know for a fact (not just my own belief) that rather than cancelling a service from Aberdeen over the weekend due to a failure of an azuma at Aberdeen, that multiple set swap and several ecs moves took place to ensure that all passenger services were covered. To say they take the easy option or for operational convenience is just not true.

 

[DanNCL]

I would love to see these empty Leeds services you quote.

Make your way down to the Leeds route then, there's plenty of them. Apart from one occasion on a Sunday afternoon (which is known to be a busy period on the ECML for both the Leeds and Edinburgh routes), on all of my journeys this year on the Leeds route the train has been quiet enough that I've been able to have a table for 4 in standard class to myself, quite often with the table across the aisle unoccupied too.

I also know for a fact (not just my own belief) that rather than cancelling a service from Aberdeen over the weekend due to a failure of an azuma at Aberdeen, that multiple set swap and several ecs moves took place to ensure that all passenger services were covered. To say they take the easy option or for operational convenience is just not true.

It does sometimes happen, for example the situation you have quoted, but quite often it doesn't.

 

[yorksrob]

I caught a mk4 from Wakefield Westgate to Leeds this morning and was taken aback at how busy it was. Easily most bays/doubles taken (and that's not just because I have an ulterior motive and want the sets on the Leeds route).

 

[800001]

Make your way down to the Leeds route then, there's plenty of them. Apart from one occasion on a Sunday afternoon (which is known to be a busy period on the ECML for both the Leeds and Edinburgh routes), on all of my journeys this year on the Leeds route the train has been quiet enough that I've been able to have a table for 4 in standard class to myself, quite often with the table across the aisle unoccupied too.


It does sometimes happen, for example the situation you have quoted, but quite often it doesn't.

I'm fully aware of how busy the Leeds route actually is, not just from your own visits to the route, but from actually working on the Leeds route, spending multiple occasions working at Kings Cross, Leeds and stations on route. So yes, I can say with very High confidence how busy Leeds services actually are.

 

[DanNCL]

I caught a mk4 from Wakefield Westgate to Leeds this morning and was taken aback at how busy it was. Easily most bays/doubles taken (and that's not just because I have an ulterior motive and want the sets on the Leeds route).

Maybe I've always been lucky then.

 

[800001]

I caught a mk4 from Wakefield Westgate to Leeds this morning and was taken aback at how busy it was. Easily most bays/doubles taken (and that's not just because I have an ulterior motive and want the sets on the Leeds route).

Trust me Rob, I would love nothing more to have a Mk4 north of York, especially for the ride quality.

 

[43096]

Neville Hill may only recently have become the “home” depot for the fleet but they’ve been doing some maintenance on the 91s and Mark 4 sets since they were first introduced, so the fleet isn’t completely new to them and they should to some extent know how to rectify the more common faults. I maintain what I have said previously that availability/utilisation of the fleet, even when the change of home depot is taken into account, is below a level that could reasonably be considered adequate.

Neville Hill only really had them before for overnight servicing, there was never any real maintenance work carried out there on the Mark 4 sets. It's a big leap from overnight servicing to full maintenance. Speaking to a former East Coast TRI recently who worked on them from new, the Mark 4 stock that has more than its fair share of quirks and they'd still get new ones even after many, many years of knowledge of them. To that can be added changes to depot staffing following the end of the EMR HST fleet and the upcoming move of the depot to Northern control, all of which has an effect.

 

[YorksLad12]

I would love to see these empty Leeds services you quote.

Make your way down to the Leeds route then, there's plenty of them. Apart from one occasion on a Sunday afternoon (which is known to be a busy period on the ECML for both the Leeds and Edinburgh routes), on all of my journeys this year on the Leeds route the train has been quiet enough that I've been able to have a table for 4 in standard class to myself, quite often with the table across the aisle unoccupied too.

If you'll accept me an an honest broker, I'm on the 1215 (9-car Azuma) down on the 1st, 1803 (5-car Azuma) back on the 2nd. I'll report back on the busyness (or not).

I caught a mk4 from Wakefield Westgate to Leeds this morning and was taken aback at how busy it was. Easily most bays/doubles taken (and that's not just because I have an ulterior motive and want the sets on the Leeds route).

What time in the morning? Anyone commuting knows to catch the LNER train instead of Northern or XC (with or without compulsory reservations)

 

[Fuzzytop]

For me it was the seating arrangement in first class, with good numbers of bays aligned to windows looking out east. Particularly north of Newcastle, but oh well, that ship has definitely sailed now.

If 91/Mk4 availability allowed a more reasonable number of diagrams, I suppose that it would be tough to allocate sets to jobs that both start and end at Neville Hill. Presumably they'd have to come to some arrangements with Hitachi at Bounds Green and/or seeing more overnight stabling in stations? Makes sense not to splash out on that for now I guess.

 

[800001]

For me it was the seating arrangement in first class, with good numbers of bays aligned to windows looking out east. Particularly north of Newcastle, but oh well, that ship has definitely sailed now.

If 91/Mk4 availability allowed a more reasonable number of diagrams, I suppose that it would be tough to allocate sets to jobs that both start and end at Neville Hill. Presumably they'd have to come to some arrangements with Hitachi at Bounds Green and/or seeing more overnight stabling in stations? Makes sense not to splash out on that for now I guess.

Bounds Green struggles to accept the Azumas on to the depot each night, same with Doncaster.
Many a night ecs are diverted to Ferme Park or Neville Hill.
Bounds Green and IEP are literally like Car parks at the moment, with units awaiting repair and also stored.

 

[yorksrob]

If you'll accept me an an honest broker, I'm on the 1215 (9-car Azuma) down on the 1st, 1803 (5-car Azuma) back on the 2nd. I'll report back on the busyness (or not).


What time in the morning? Anyone commuting knows to catch the LNER train instead of Northern or XC (with or without compulsory reservations)

Would have been after 10. But yes, when i was commuting that way of i'd often wait a few minutes more for the InterCity.

 

[800001]

For me it was the seating arrangement in first class, with good numbers of bays aligned to windows looking out east. Particularly north of Newcastle, but oh well, that ship has definitely sailed now.

If 91/Mk4 availability allowed a more reasonable number of diagrams, I suppose that it would be tough to allocate sets to jobs that both start and end at Neville Hill. Presumably they'd have to come to some arrangements with Hitachi at Bounds Green and/or seeing more overnight stabling in stations? Makes sense not to splash out on that for now I guess.

I miss the of 4 on the coast side, or the table for 2, so you could enjoy the nice coastal views.

 

[skyhigh]

It's been the same old attitude that I've come to expect from across the railway, the sooner the railway realises it's there as a public service and not as a giant toy set for the DFT the better.

I'm not sure you fully understand the situation the railway finds itself in right now. TOCs do not have a choice in the matter - they do as the DfT tells them to, they can't turn round and say no. They can make suggestions to the DfT, but there's no guarantee they will listen. That goes for pretty much every 'cost' right now, railcard extensions, wider traction knowledge etc - the DfT is holding the purse strings as tight as possible.

 

[DanNCL]

If 91/Mk4 availability allowed a more reasonable number of diagrams, I suppose that it would be tough to allocate sets to jobs that both start and end at Neville Hill. Presumably they'd have to come to some arrangements with Hitachi at Bounds Green and/or seeing more overnight stabling in stations? Makes sense not to splash out on that for now I guess.

Bounds Green struggles to accept the Azumas on to the depot each night, same with Doncaster.
Many a night ecs are diverted to Ferme Park or Neville Hill.
Bounds Green and IEP are literally like Car parks at the moment, with units awaiting repair and also stored.

Stabling Mark 4 sets at a Hitachi depot is a non-starter. There's already the option to stable Mark 4 sets at Ferme Park, but I'm only aware of that having been used once since the transfer of the sets to Neville Hill and that was after a set failure, it went to Ferme Park for the night before being taken back to Neville Hill by a 67. The overflow of Hitachi units into Ferme Park each night may be a significant part of the reason why Ferme Park isn't more regularly used to stable Mark 4 sets. Hitachi certainly aren't helping themselves with the 80x stabling issues, they still have the dedicated storage compound at Tyne Yard which they could be using for units that are stopped and have no likelihood of returning to service in the immediate future to get them out of the way, much like they did with 800104 and 800105 when the cracking issue was first discovered.

The only other stabling point that would theoretically be available for the Mark 4s in addition to Neville Hill and Ferme Park would be Heaton, but that would require crew refreshers (something I maintain would be a wise idea regardless of what happens with diagramming the sets), as well as a new agreement with Northern for depot access to be signed, so doesn't seem likely, at least not anytime soon.

I'm not sure you fully understand the situation the railway finds itself in right now. TOCs do not have a choice in the matter - they do as the DfT tells them to, they can't turn round and say no. They can make suggestions to the DfT, but there's no guarantee they will listen. That goes for pretty much every 'cost' right now, railcard extensions, wider traction knowledge etc - the DfT is holding the purse strings as tight as possible.

I do understand the situation, very much so. The DFT certainly aren't helping matters, but LNER still have a large degree of independence for decision making, more so than most TOCs with them being directly owned by the DFT rather than a private company contracted in to operate the services. If the DFT really had a problem with LNER spending extra they'd have intervened to stop TOC money being spent on stuff such as the large air filtration machine that LNER have provided on the concourse at Newcastle station (and has already broken and been fenced off) - as nice as such ideas are (and essential for dealing with the climate emergency), it's not TOCs that should be paying for them, certainly not at the expense of putting the money into being able to better run services.

 

[AJW12]

Thankfully short-formed 5 cars rarely happens to the Edinburgh services; LNER generally prioritise them over the Leeds/Lincoln or York ones because they're busier. As discussed above. Whilst I generally do not find the Leeds services 'quiet', as seen in the attached data from the 2022 Timetable Consultation, the fast Scotland is generally the busiest, then the semi-fast, then the Leeds services. Though I do feel sorry for those people who regularly use the Leeds services; constantly finding your train truncated to a tiny 5-car mustn't be pleasant.

When it gets extreme though, it does happen once or twice. Today's 16:00 from Edinburgh to London was changed to 5 cars at the last minute and with bank holiday weekenders going home, it didn't look pleasant as it pulled out earlier. Dozens of people standing on the aisles, no doubt many of them all the way to London....

 

[800001]

Thankfully short-formed 5 cars rarely happens to the Edinburgh services; LNER generally prioritise them over the Leeds/Lincoln or York ones because they're busier. As discussed above. Whilst I generally do not find the Leeds services 'quiet', as seen in the attached data from the 2022 Timetable Consultation, the fast Scotland is generally the busiest, then the semi-fast, then the Leeds services. Though I do feel sorry for those people who regularly use the Leeds services; constantly finding your train truncated to a tiny 5-car mustn't be pleasant.

When it gets extreme though, it does happen once or twice. Today's 16:00 from Edinburgh to London was changed to 5 cars at the last minute and with bank holiday weekenders going home, it didn't look pleasant as it pulled out earlier. Dozens of people standing on the aisles, no doubt many of them all the way to London....

And that was a last resort due to a ECTS fault on original set 801216 at Kings Cross, either a 5 car, or cancel.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Anecdotally it seems that the two sets that I think have been to Wabtec - NL06 and NL08 - see outings far more often than the other sets. Hopefully availability will increase once all the sets have had a trip to Doncaster, and perhaps extensions beyond York can be considered then?

but presumably by that time a replacement will be sourced and on the cards!

 

[800001]

Anecdotally it seems that the two sets that I think have been to Wabtec - NL06 and NL08 - see outings far more often than the other sets. Hopefully availability will increase once all the sets have had a trip to Doncaster, and perhaps extensions beyond York can be considered then?

but presumably by that time a replacement will be sourced and on the cards!

NL12 fresh out of Wabtec last week, with refurbished bogies. Now at Neville Hill being prepared for service

 

[43094]

The southbound 5-car today was swapped to place it on the Anglo-Scot with the fewest reservations, within the options available - unfortunately *all* of them were heavily loaded, and due to the failure of 801216, it had to work one of them….

I’m also familiar with the Aberdeen example mentioned by 800001 above (and the subsequent amendments during the day, due to further failures) - it was a typical example of doing the right thing, rather than the easy thing.

The internal effort put by LNER Control into covering the service when things don’t go as planned isn’t always immediately obvious, due to the circumstances at the time - but it doesn’t mean it’s not happened, whether successful or not - I’d be confident in saying that the customer impact is at the forefront of the decisions made.

The overall strategy of the MK4 usage, and the relative reliability of the various fleets isn’t something I’d like to get into here, other than to say that running the service can be a challenge!

 

[47827]

There is a little bit of slack that should be cut here maybe, although not indefinite. Quite typical that fleets being run down gradually for withdrawal for a few years aren't as impressive as they could have once been so if, like the situation with the 91s/mk4s, a small batch suddenly get a reprieve (rather like WB64 at Virgin but several times over) it will be expected that things may not settle down for a little while at all. That said I recall that Anglia did get the 90s and mk3 sets decent for many years after chucking the cash in and getting them up to scratch until the final period of use with stock refurbishments just 2 to 3 years pre withdrawal. Virgin, along with the 87s (and older XC fleets), had let its loco hauled operations become steadily less reliable by the end with new fleets arriving to take over. Its not just about age as similar aged or older fleets have fared better since then. I imagine LNER can do the same with their reprieved sets if it adopts a similar effort to Anglia about 17/18 years ago with its Virgin cast offs. The only issue will be if it has the mentality that they are being binned in a few years so it simply doesn't matter.

 

[Swimbar]

There is a little bit of slack that should be cut here maybe, although not indefinite. Quite typical that fleets being run down gradually for withdrawal for a few years aren't as impressive as they could have once been so if, like the situation with the 91s/mk4s, a small batch suddenly get a reprieve (rather like WB64 at Virgin but several times over) it will be expected that things may not settle down for a little while at all.

As happened with the 125's cascaded to EMR from LNER. The Mk4's will settle down with some 'tlc'. After all the state of some of them, when LNER had finished with them, meant that they went for scrap!

 

[Wapps]

And that was a last resort due to a ECTS fault on original set 801216 at Kings Cross, either a 5 car, or cancel.

Do you mean ETCS? If so, I didn’t think ETCS was installed/operational on the ECML yet. Does anyone know when it will be installed?