One in ten 'cannot use London Tube or buses'

[GodAtum]

One in 10 Londoners cannot access large sections of the public transport network in London because of mobility issues, a report has warned.

The study claimed:

Only 10 of London's 270 Tube stations are completely step-free all the way from street level to train.
Just one third of London's 300 rail stations have step-free access from street to platform.
While all London's buses now have ramps, only half of London's 17,476 bus stops meet the criteria for full accessibility.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11792421

 

[jd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11792421

Well I guess if the AMs are bothered by it, they should put pressure on the Mayor to put funding in place. That's what they're paid their over-inflated salaries for.

 

[Mojo]

Their definition of step free access must be based on there being no step up (or down) or gap between the train and the platform, as there are a hell of a lot more than 10 stations with lifts providing step-free access to platform. Somewhat misleading as ramps can be deployed to provide access where they are not.

Similarly I have also wondered why I hardly ever see a London bus stop with a raised surface, compared to the hundreds of thousands of pounds spent elsewhere installing these eyesores. Accessibility doesn't seem to be an issue with these, is it because London has more super low floor buses than elsewhere, or are the non London councils just looking to waste money?

 

[jd]

Their definition of step free access must be based on there being no step up (or down) or gap between the train and the platform, as there are a hell of a lot more than 10 stations with lifts providing step-free access to platform. Somewhat misleading as ramps can be deployed to provide access where they are not.

Similarly I have also wondered why I hardly ever see a London bus stop with a raised surface, compared to the hundreds of thousands of pounds spent elsewhere installing these eyesores. Accessibility doesn't seem to be an issue with these, is it because London has more super low floor buses than elsewhere, or are the non London councils just looking to waste money?

I guess in London they just fold out the ramp for wheelchair users - and don't at least some of the buses have electronically-deployed ramps that don't require the driver to even get out?

In the WM, the raised kerb combined with the kneeling bus gives a completely flat entry, without the need for the ramp - so the driver doesn't need to get out and delay the bus by getting the ramp out. But then, if the ramps were electric like in London, maybe the kneeling feature and the raised kerbs wouldn't be necessary?

 

[Deerfold]

I guess in London they just fold out the ramp for wheelchair users - and don't at least some of the buses have electronically-deployed ramps that don't require the driver to even get out?

In the WM, the raised kerb combined with the kneeling bus gives a completely flat entry, without the need for the ramp - so the driver doesn't need to get out and delay the bus by getting the ramp out. But then, if the ramps were electric like in London, maybe the kneeling feature and the raised kerbs wouldn't be necessary?

Pretty much all TfL-contracted buses have remotely operated ramps - and most of them are over the teething problems where they'd only work once before needing someone to give them a once-over.

 

[tripleseis]

I've only ever seen a bus ramp used once and when it was used the bus had to be taken out of service because it had broken. But then again that doesn't surprise considering the state of some of Metroline's double deckers are in.

 

[coupwotcoup]

If one in ten is correct, we are talking say 800,000 people (ish).
There are roughly 750,000 wheelchair users nationally, so in London
I'd hazard a guess at say 250,000 (max).
Two thirds of these would be people of a certain age who would rather be
far from the madding crowd.
So, using ball park figures, there are approximately 100,000 wheelchair users here in the smoke...
This leaves a figure of around 700,000 - ahhh mothers with prams and kids.
Sorry to sound insensitive, but those of you who live in London have no doubt experienced the problems
that arise when just one mother, baby, two young kids can cause, when she takes them out for a day trip during school holidays.
Unfortunately LU is an old system and if every station was like Canary Wharf then perhaps the majority could be catered for.
Even if TfL had the money or inclination to upgrade the tube in respect of the above, they could probably make inroads
into improving a majority of stations above ground, but this would be negated by the impossible task of making improvements
to others in the city, where there is little room for maneuverability.

 

[Goldfish62]

Pretty much all TfL-contracted buses have remotely operated ramps - and most of them are over the teething problems where they'd only work once before needing someone to give them a once-over.

In fact, it's 100% of TfL contracted buses. They are pretty reliable these days. It unfortunately only needs one reported instance of a ramp not working and suddenly it's claimed that none of them do.

 

[Deerfold]

In fact, it's 100% of TfL contracted buses. They are pretty reliable these days. It unfortunately only needs one reported instance of a ramp not working and suddenly it's claimed that none of them do.

Afraid not - there's the 9 and 15 heritage routes. Which is why I stuck to "pretty much all".

 

[deltic]

London buses are highly accessible and its difficult to see what else could be done to improve them any more. The 1-10 figure is meaningless - it probably includes many very frail individuals who are housebound and can only be moved by ambulance

 

[jon0844]

There might be a lot of wheelchair users, but I don't see that many in London - and any non-Routmaster bus is accessible.

However, not everyone has to use a wheelchair at all times so that might skew the figures. When my mum was in a wheelchair, there was a time when she began to be able to walk again and did so with crutches, then a stick. She did still use the chair at times, but usually only when out for a long time.

Also, I wonder if wheelchair users generally shop locally or opt to take a taxi (which are also accessible) instead?

 

[Goldfish62]

Afraid not - there's the 9 and 15 heritage routes. Which is why I stuck to "pretty much all".

They're not part of the main network. For network planning purposes they're ignored.

 

[HST Power]

How are you supposed to get room for a wheelchair on the Underground, let alone on the train?

 

[Deerfold]

They're not part of the main network. For network planning purposes they're ignored.

Perhaps they are, but we were talking about all TfL routes - I'm not quite sure why you feel you have to prove I'm wrong - we're only talking about a fraction of a % of buses.

As far as a customer is concerned then they're (a small) part of the network - if a routemaster turns up they won't be able to get on. However, they shouldn't have very long to wait until an accessible bus turns up.

 

[jon0844]

How are you supposed to get room for a wheelchair on the Underground, let alone on the train?

Tube trains aren't packed all the time. If I was in a wheelchair, I think I'd accept there are times I probably shouldn't try and travel (what a shame people with buggies don't think the same, and try and force themselves on - even asking people to move).

Some platforms now have raised sections for level access, although the signs to show that this is where wheelchairs should board are not positioned particularly well (at least at Highbury & Islington where I saw a sign hanging from the ceiling).

 

[HST Power]

Buggies are an absolute nightmare. Its even worse on the bus. I was taking the train to Peterborough the other day and there were no seats at tall, so I had to stand. But suddenly, as we stopped at Stevenage, all the people standing around me got off. 'Great,' I thought, 'I've now got some space.'
But then to my dismay, about five different women with screaming kids got in. The kids wouldn't get into the train. One of the mothers said to her son, who couldn't have been more than four or five, 'If you don't get into that **** train I'm gonna batter you.'
What is it with these people?

 

[talltim]

That's Stevenage for you

 

[Nym]

This is one thing I don't get about mothers on public transport nowerdays, or maybe it's just a large city problem. When I was growing up in E Yorks, if somone had a pram and wanted to get on a bus, by the time the bus got there, it was colapsed and child was in arm, and it went in the luggage dump boxey thing, now they just seem to refuse to break down their buggies, if mothers managed this 10 years ago, why can't they now?

Been many occations back before I lost all will to live on GMPTE buses, would have 4 or 5 buggies trying to squese onto a single decker bus, blocking all exits in the process, naming no names but on the Bolton end of the 582 (Bolton - Daubhill - Four Ln Ends - Atherton - Leigh) it was perticularlly bad! Was no better on anything in Manchester either, only ever seen prams broken down once and that was on a 216 (Picc Gardens East - Ashton N Road - Sportcity - Droylsden - Ashton U Lyne) running though Ancoats...

Buggies shouldn't be allowed on BUSES without being broken down, this will cause some moaning, but unless you have two infant twins that need to be in a chair, theres no reason to need to have it up on any form of public transport, short of possibly trains, where space is available, Northern 150s spring to mind. You can easilly have three kids, if well trained, under control, with young baby in arm, and two walkers, with the pram broken down and bags of shopping. And if you have more kids than that and you're out with all of them on public transport, and can't control them, maybe it's time to be looking at how to control your kids better, or you should have baught a TV for the bedroom!

Back on topic, you can't change most of the LUL stations to be accessable, theres being accomadating, and then theres just taking the P***, yes all new stations should be made accessable, but to alter a station like russel square to be accessable is damn near impossible without rebuilding the whole station, almost all TfL buses are accessable, all heavy rail services are pretty close, and if you phone NR for assistance they'll provide it. We should NOT be providing ramps and lifts at great expense for buggies though, as stated above, you can live without them, and if LUL is too busy and theres no space for a buggy, you shouldn't be taking children young enough to need a buggy round in that kind of enviroment anyway.

Don't even get me started on mobility scooters, if I had one it would need an SVA, Number Plates, Tax Disc, MOT and Insurance, but if you're old you need none of this! If you need a mobility scooter, you don't need to be going on Metrolink Trams, if you want to go on Metrolink Trams and have difficiulty walking, use a leccy wheelchair!

 

[Greenback]

It is a by product of the DDA. People had to collapse prams and pushchairs to physically get on buses, now they don't have to (in most cases). If people don't have to do soemthing, they won't.

As to TfL, I simply can't see how somewhere like Russell Square could be rebuilt at all! Still, I;ve never noticed a huge problem with buggies on Central London tubes!

 

[HST Power]

...Maybe not on central london tubes. But just you try FCC trains!

 

[tbtc]

"One in 10 Londoners cannot access large sections of the public transport network in London because of mobility issues"

All depends on what you mean by "large sections". People like to release these stats which sound "big" until you question exactly what they mean.

Are you suggesting that 10% of all Londoners are in wheelchairs?

Buses should all be 100% as far as I'm concerned (ignoring the "tourist" buses).

 

[At_traction]

Buggies shouldn't be allowed on BUSES without being broken down, this will cause some moaning, but unless you have two infant twins that need to be in a chair, theres no reason to need to have it up on any form of public transport, short of possibly trains, where space is available, Northern 150s spring to mind. You can easilly have three kids, if well trained, under control, with young baby in arm, and two walkers, with the pram broken down and bags of shopping. And if you have more kids than that and you're out with all of them on public transport, and can't control them, maybe it's time to be looking at how to control your kids better, or you should have baught a TV for the bedroom!

With today's tanks... I mean, buggies, I suspect whether many of them are even collapsible at all, judging by the way they appear.

As for the issue of buggies and pub transport, I personally have no issue whatsoever with these being inserted, uncollapsed within a bus or train, as long as they are kept in the space reserved for them (ie. there is one appointed and marked in the first place). I think that requiring a mother (or father, in the name of progress! ) to start fidgeting with the collapse features both at the bus stop as the bus arrives and everybody expects a speedy loading/unloading as well as when the destination stop approaches. With a baby pram that is IMO right out with all the even dangerous inconvenience involved (and then who is responsible for waking up the 80 dB baby ) and even with a buggy, borderline. If the infantry fighting vehicle is easily collapsible and the child can walk, then that would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath even then...

If prams/buggies or wheelchairs in pub transport (outside densest of rush hours) are truly an issue, then as a civil society there is something askew.

 

[jon0844]

If there's a suitable area that a buggy can go in, without being folded, then that's fine.. but not if the buggy owner asks everyone to move out as if s/he has some sort of priority at the expense of everyone else.

It's different for a wheelchair user that needs a place to go, or those with luggage that find their spaces taken up by passengers (and one example is on 365s where people love to sit on the luggage racks at the end of the trains - in what I'd assume is the cumple zone!).

 

[jd]

I think prams are fine so long as they are confined to the pram area, which in my experience they are. I think that, if there is no more room because there are already as many prams as the pram area can hold, then people ought to put the prams down, or just wait for the next bus.

Also, they often use the wheelchair area (which I think is fine), and obviously pushchairs should yield to wheelchairs should a person in a wheelchair want to get on.

I get most annoyed on trains, when people get on with pushchairs and leave them in the doorways (people also do this with bikes, which is much worse because they COMPLETELY block the doorway with them). There is a whole area of tip-up seats, dedicated to bikes and pushchairs, on most commuter stock, and certainly on the ones I have in mind. The company goes to great lengths to put posters up at every station telling people how to find the section of tip-up seats. But they might as well have not bothered...

 

[At_traction]

If there's a suitable area that a buggy can go in, without being folded, then that's fine.. but not if the buggy owner asks everyone to move out as if s/he has some sort of priority at the expense of everyone else.

I agree if there is no designated area for prams/buggies/wheelchairs, but if the designated area is occupied by anything else (which might include even a buggy that is "easily" foldable) then the occupants of that space should yield and let the prams etc. inside. Of course, once the capacity for these within the vehicle is full, they should wait for the next one.

 

[PaulLothian]

When I was growing up in E Yorks, if somone had a pram and wanted to get on a bus, by the time the bus got there, it was colapsed and child was in arm, and it went in the luggage dump boxey thing, now they just seem to refuse to break down their buggies, if mothers managed this 10 years ago, why can't they now?...
You can easilly have three kids, if well trained, under control, with young baby in arm, and two walkers, with the pram broken down and bags of shopping.

As a relatively new grandfather, my sympathies are with the mothers. Why? Because modern buggies are designed differently from those of 25 years ago, when I was last pushing small children around.

Many of the changes are for good reasons - bigger wheels make the buggy easier to push (particularly in the recent snow!); bigger bodies and proper hoods give the children more protection from the weather; and they are more robust and don't fall to pieces if you try to use them anywhere other than in a shopping centre! But as I recently discovered, there is a payoff - they are absolute so-and-sos to fold. You can't do it single handed, and you haven't anywhere to put the child while you do it!

I am sure that some of the additions are stylistic rather than than utilitarian - I saw one with a computer on the handles a few months ago, and I was recently amazed to see a lengthy twin pushchair which had so little leverage on the handles that instead it had a Formula One-like steering wheel (connected to the front wheels) to push and to steer it. It had the turning circle of an oil-tanker! If one of those arrived on a station platform, even my principles of equality of access to transport would be strained.

 

[jon0844]

I agree if there is no designated area for prams/buggies/wheelchairs, but if the designated area is occupied by anything else (which might include even a buggy that is "easily" foldable) then the occupants of that space should yield and let the prams etc. inside. Of course, once the capacity for these within the vehicle is full, they should wait for the next one.

But they'd refuse to wait, saying they're being unfairly treated - even though anyone else would have to wait if the train was full too. It's just easier to try and squeeze on if you're on your own and have nothing with you.

 

[HST Power]

But they'd refuse to wait, saying they're being unfairly treated - even though anyone else would have to wait if the train was full too. It's just easier to try and squeeze on if you're on your own and have nothing with you.

Maybe they should do special carriages for people with buggies, prams, the elderly ECT. Then again, you could just do the decent thing and move carriages if there is room.

 

[jon0844]

I wouldn't put the elderly and buggies together. Wheelchairs and the elderly have priority, buggies do not. Bear in mind, it's the buggies that don't, not the people WITH the buggies.

 

[Fred26]

But they'd refuse to wait, saying they're being unfairly treated - even though anyone else would have to wait if the train was full too.

The important thing to remember is that everyone is a victim.