Trainline/GWR anti-fraud partnership

[alistairlees]

I had one rejected at Reading last week. I assumed it was because I was using a Network Railcard, but then the attendant just let me through without asking to see my railcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==


Is it possible to manually scan the ticket in such a situation, by typing in the code shown next to the aztec code?

If the Aztec code won’t scan because the phone screen is cracked then the ticket is invalid and a new ticket needs to be bought.

 

[gray1404]

If the Aztec code won’t scan because the phone screen is cracked then the ticket is invalid and a new ticket needs to be bought.

Source for this?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I had one rejected at Reading last week. I assumed it was because I was using a Network Railcard, but then the attendant just let me through without asking to see my railcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==


Is it possible to manually scan the ticket in such a situation, by typing in the code shown next to the aztec code?

Source for this?

It is the customers responsibility to have the ticket readable on their device

 

[skyhigh]

Source for this?

This is from the T&Cs you agree to on one TOC, I imagine the rest are similar:

It is your responsibility to ensure that you carry your Mobile Device on the relevant journey and that your Mobile Device is charged, functional, displaying the correct date and time and that you are able to display the ticket on your Mobile Device for inspection and scanning when you travel. Mobile tickets must be activated from within the Mobile Application before boarding the train in order to validate the Mobile ticket. The Mobile Device must be capable of running the Mobile Application and clearly presenting the Mobile ticket in a legible manner.

(My bold). You can argue what 'legible' means, but I'd suggest it means the ticket must be able to be scanned.

 

[158801]

On the ticket scanner I use it’s possible to bring up a scan history for the ticket.

It’s amazing how often there’s not a full audit trail for the ticket. So, for example, a ticket from Liverpool to Skipton should be scanned at the Lime Street barriers, on board the Liverpool to Leeds train, on board the Leeds to skipton train and at skipton barriers.
It’s amazing how many tickets I check the audit history for and, on a return journey from the above example, I am the first to scan their ticket.

 

[Nova1]

On the ticket scanner I use it’s possible to bring up a scan history for the ticket.

It’s amazing how often there’s not a full audit trail for the ticket. So, for example, a ticket from Liverpool to Skipton should be scanned at the Lime Street barriers, on board the Liverpool to Leeds train, on board the Leeds to skipton train and at skipton barriers.
It’s amazing how many tickets I check the audit history for and, on a return journey from the above example, I am the first to scan their ticket.

There's been many a journey where I have travelled for three or more hours, multiple changes, and only had my ticket checked once (or even none at all). Then often at interchanges I find barriers open (New Street seems to be open a lot of the time) and New Street (where staff always open the barriers - four ticket barriers isn't enough for an evening 8 car service from london!)

 

[CentralTrainer]

On the ticket scanner I use it’s possible to bring up a scan history for the ticket.

It’s amazing how often there’s not a full audit trail for the ticket. So, for example, a ticket from Liverpool to Skipton should be scanned at the Lime Street barriers, on board the Liverpool to Leeds train, on board the Leeds to skipton train and at skipton barriers.
It’s amazing how many tickets I check the audit history for and, on a return journey from the above example, I am the first to scan their ticket.

To take Birmingham New Street as an example (when the barriers are closed at that station at points during the day) - it'd be interesting to see the volume of tickets bought on the app from University (or the nearest station north, east or west) - immediately prior to them being scanned on the barrier at New Street - meaning that travellers would be hanging back from the gateline after confirming its closed after travelling in from a longer distance with no ticket check on board from a non-barrier station - buying the cheapest ticket to just get through the barriers at BHM.

Is that something the data can show?

 

[Scott1]

To take Birmingham New Street as an example (when the barriers are closed at that station at points during the day) - it'd be interesting to see the volume of tickets bought on the app from University (or the nearest station north, east or west) - immediately prior to them being scanned on the barrier at New Street

Is that something the data can show?

It is. Without going into too much detail most staff can scan a ticket and see when it was bought and who else has interacted with it.

In the back office you can see when it was bought, how often the person buys the ticket type and various other useful things for catching regular fare dodgers. Then you simply wait and follow them a few times to see what journey they really do and let them dig their own grave.

 

[RPI]

It is. Without going into too much detail most staff can scan a ticket and see when it was bought and who else has interacted with it.

In the back office you can see when it was bought, how often the person buys the ticket type and various other useful things for catching regular fare dodgers. Then you simply wait and follow them a few times to see what journey they really do and let them dig their own grave.

Spot on, with the paper trail that e tickets leave any offender has to get lucky every single time these days, the inspector only has to get lucky once.

 

[STINT47]

If someone was going to commit this type of fraud they surely wouldn't buy their tickets from the same retailer on the same account?

If doing this I would use multiple ticket buying sites, diffrent email addresses and also use a VPN to hide my IP address. I doubt many fraudsters would buy on the Trainliiiine each time using the same account as it would make it very easy to prove their guilt.

For the avoidance of any confusion I do not encourage anyone to do the above and suport the crack down on fraud. The railway needs all the revenue it can get after covid.

 

[skyhigh]

I doubt many fraudsters would buy on the Trainliiiine each time using the same account as it would make it very easy to prove their guilt.

No, but the majority of the loss is from 'casual' fare evasion where the people engaging it it aren't bright enough to realise that.

 

[jon0844]

If someone was going to commit this type of fraud they surely wouldn't buy their tickets from the same retailer on the same account?

If doing this I would use multiple ticket buying sites, diffrent email addresses and also use a VPN to hide my IP address. I doubt many fraudsters would buy on the Trainliiiine each time using the same account as it would make it very easy to prove their guilt.

For the avoidance of any confusion I do not encourage anyone to do the above and suport the crack down on fraud. The railway needs all the revenue it can get after covid.

How many different sites can people use? How many different payment cards? How many names to tie up with a railcard?

It's still pretty easy to do some basic checks like when a ticket was purchased, or when a short ticket was printed (and where) and so on.

There are going to be a lot of people paying back a lot of money to avoid court in the next 6-12 months.

What's more, these offences won't start out with a PF option so this forum is likely going to be rather busy in the months ahead.

 

[WelshBluebird]

On the ticket scanner I use it’s possible to bring up a scan history for the ticket.

It’s amazing how often there’s not a full audit trail for the ticket. So, for example, a ticket from Liverpool to Skipton should be scanned at the Lime Street barriers, on board the Liverpool to Leeds train, on board the Leeds to skipton train and at skipton barriers.
It’s amazing how many tickets I check the audit history for and, on a return journey from the above example, I am the first to scan their ticket.

That is a pretty large set of assumptions though (assuming the barriers at all stations were actually in use and not just left open and assuming there was a ticket check on each train). Quite often one or more of those assumptions just isn't the case. There are plenty of times where I have travelled long distances without a ticket check either due to barriers being left open or due to there being no on board ticket checks (or in the case of replacement buses recently, the ticket just being looked at rather than scanned).

 

[158801]

That is a pretty large set of assumptions though (assuming the barriers at all stations were actually in use and not just left open and assuming there was a ticket check on each train). Quite often one or more of those assumptions just isn't the case. There are plenty of times where I have travelled long distances without a ticket check either due to barriers being left open or due to there being no on board ticket checks (or in the case of replacement buses recently, the ticket just being looked at rather than scanned).

They are not assumptions - but facts.

I was on Leeds concourse the other night just after midnight. A train had just arrived from Kings Cross. The staff at Leeds opened half a dozen barriers and just let people walk out.

Now, I know that the barriers at Kings Cross are open for much of the time. I will make an assumption that they were open at 10pm when the train left. Did the train manager go through the train at 10pm and check tickets ?

There are many reasons why there’s not a full audit trail on a ticket’s usage.

I’m stating that, in many cases, for various reasons a ticket isn’t scanned as much as it could potentially have been.

 

[35B]

They are not assumptions - but facts.

I was on Leeds concourse the other night just after midnight. A train had just arrived from Kings Cross. The staff at Leeds opened half a dozen barriers and just let people walk out.

Now, I know that the barriers at Kings Cross are open for much of the time. I will make an assumption that they were open at 10pm when the train left. Did the train manager go through the train at 10pm and check tickets ?

There are many reasons why there’s not a full audit trail on a ticket’s usage.

I’m stating that, in many cases, for various reasons a ticket isn’t scanned as much as it could potentially have been.

I travelled yesterday from Grantham to London; my tickets were not inspected at any point on either journey, and the barriers at King's Cross were left open both times I went through King's Cross. When I have made that journey in recent months and my ticket has been checked or the barriers have been closed, it has been scanned properly. I agree that it's a reasonable assumption that a scannable ticket that has not been scanned will not have been checked en route.

 

[py_megapixel]

If the Aztec code won’t scan because the phone screen is cracked then the ticket is invalid and a new ticket needs to be bought.

It is the customers responsibility to have the ticket readable on their device

If they break their screen in one place, but can scroll down so that the code is in a non-cracked area and can still be read, or can produce a copy of the PDF on a different device or on paper, then surely it must still be valid though?

 

[Haywain]

If they break their screen in one place, but can scroll down so that the code is in a non-cracked area and can still be read, or can produce a copy of the PDF on a different device or on paper, then surely it must still be valid though?

If it can be scanned then it will be valid. If it won't scan because of a cracked screen, it won't be.

 

[rob.rjt]

If it can be scanned then it will be valid. If it won't scan because of a cracked screen, it won't be.

Another reason to avoid anything but paper tickets then, given that the device can be damaged after getting into the system - a simple example would be rushing through the barrier you have opened with your mobile, having it in your hand and dropping it and breaking the screen as you rush for the train.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Another reason to avoid anything but paper tickets then, given that the device can be damaged after getting into the system - a simple example would be rushing through the barrier you have opened with your mobile, having it in your hand and dropping it and breaking the screen as you rush for the train.

Does a paper ticket not have the same risk though? Especially the till roll reciept style ones given by some ToCs these days.

 

[Haywain]

Another reason to avoid anything but paper tickets then, given that the device can be damaged after getting into the system - a simple example would be rushing through the barrier you have opened with your mobile, having it in your hand and dropping it and breaking the screen as you rush for the train.

Because nothing bad ever happened to a paper ticket.

 

[simonw]

Another reason to avoid anything but paper tickets then, given that the device can be damaged after getting into the system - a simple example would be rushing through the barrier you have opened with your mobile, having it in your hand and dropping it and breaking the screen as you rush for the train.

or dropping your paper ticket as you run for your train.

 

[rob.rjt]

Chance of dropping the paper ticket - true. Chance of rendering the paper ticket invalid by dropping and retrieving it - 0.

Nothing is 100% foolproof, but the railway needs to cope with fools. If I've broken several hundred pounds of mobile phone, I don't want to also render invalid a potential hundred plus pounds of tickets.

 

[Haywain]

Chance of dropping the paper ticket - true. Chance of rendering the paper ticket invalid by dropping and retrieving it - 0.

Nothing is 100% foolproof, but the railway needs to cope with fools. If I've broken several hundred pounds of mobile phone, I don't want to also render invalid a potential hundred plus pounds of tickets.

Spend a few quid on protecting your phone then.

 

[Dai Corner]

Chance of dropping the paper ticket - true. Chance of rendering the paper ticket invalid by dropping and retrieving it - 0.

Nothing is 100% foolproof, but the railway needs to cope with fools. If I've broken several hundred pounds of mobile phone, I don't want to also render invalid a potential hundred plus pounds of tickets.

Ever dropped a paper ticket in a puddle or somewhere irretrievable such as the track?

 

[AlterEgo]

Chance of dropping the paper ticket - true. Chance of rendering the paper ticket invalid by dropping and retrieving it - 0.

Nothing is 100% foolproof, but the railway needs to cope with fools. If I've broken several hundred pounds of mobile phone, I don't want to also render invalid a potential hundred plus pounds of tickets.

It’s just because it’s a newer form of ticket medium. If mobile phone tickets had existed for 150 years and suddenly the railway started offering paper ones, you’d still just get people complaining about the new and unfamiliar medium. They might get wet, you can drop it too easily, what if you accidentally deface it, what if the machine doesn’t dispense them, no recourse if you lose it, blah blah blah.

 

[35B]

Chance of dropping the paper ticket - true. Chance of rendering the paper ticket invalid by dropping and retrieving it - 0.

Nothing is 100% foolproof, but the railway needs to cope with fools. If I've broken several hundred pounds of mobile phone, I don't want to also render invalid a potential hundred plus pounds of tickets.

I suggest https://www.otterbox.co.uk/ might be a useful port of call then (other options are available).

 

[Wolfie]

If someone was going to commit this type of fraud they surely wouldn't buy their tickets from the same retailer on the same account?

If doing this I would use multiple ticket buying sites, diffrent email addresses and also use a VPN to hide my IP address. I doubt many fraudsters would buy on the Trainliiiine each time using the same account as it would make it very easy to prove their guilt.

For the avoidance of any confusion I do not encourage anyone to do the above and suport the crack down on fraud. The railway needs all the revenue it can get after covid.

That would be sensible for any scammer as would multiple payment methods. Perhaps pre-loaded payment cards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2021 ==

Spend a few quid on protecting your phone then.

I did. Then dropped the damned thing which, law of Murphy at it's finest, hit the floor directly on a corner where the screen was a millimeter or less proud of the phone body... Cut shattered screen despite case, screen protector etc.

 

[Haywain]

That would be sensible for any scammer as would multiple payment methods. Perhaps pre-loaded payment cards.

However, most people are really not that bright and just assume they won't get caught. That's why many revenue operations at stations have BTP present - because those who dodge fares and then argue about it have usually committed other unrelated offences as well.

I did. Then dropped the damned thing which, law of Murphy at it's finest, hit the floor directly on a corner where the screen was a millimeter or less proud of the phone body... Cut shattered screen despite case, screen protector etc.

I know it's not an absolute safeguard - some years ago I slipped on a floor and fell with my full bodyweight landing on the smartphone in my trouser pocket, that didn't end well for the phone! However, I have a good quality protective case and a screen protector on my current phone and it has survived being dropped several times over the last couple of years.