Stations rebranded to Great British Railways design / Rail Alphabet 2 & 3

[_toommm_]

It’s reached Chathill too:

 

[Meerkat]

When franchises spent money rebranding things this was seen as a bad thing, so why is GBR doing this?

 

[HarryL]

When franchises spent money rebranding things this was seen as a bad thing, so why is GBR doing this?

Because unlike a franchise, GBR is expected to stick around a lot longer so doing the job now means it doesn't need doing again for the long term (Although the Northern examples aren't particularly the proper application and may well end up replaced at some point). The best example of it in action is the BR signage that is still going strong in many stations next to ToC signage that has been replaced multiple times as they've come and gone.

 

[bramling]

I was at Ribblehead station yesterday.

Firstly, the new station signage is just the name boards. The remaining station signage, e.g. 'Way Out', 'this platform for Appleby and Carlisle' etc has not been updated and is still in original Transport font installed by British Rail.

Secondly, the signs are not over-vinyled. They look like new metal signs with stick on black letters.

As for the look of the signs, something doesn't look quite right with them to me. I think they would look much better if a bold typeface had been used. My friend, who is not a rail enthusiast, commented that the old signs stood out better.

Agreed on the latter paragraph. The concept is sound, the constant merry-go-round of branding over the last three decades is both tedious and wasteful, but the font used needs to be slightly thicker. Apart from the fact it just doesn’t look right, it gets lost amongst other signage, when as the station name it should be one of the most important pieces of signage on the station.

A bit bolder and I’d be quite happy with it.

 

[Meerkat]

Because unlike a franchise, GBR is expected to stick around a lot longer so doing the job now means it doesn't need doing again for the long term (Although the Northern examples aren't particularly the proper application and may well end up replaced at some point). The best example of it in action is the BR signage that is still going strong in many stations next to ToC signage that has been replaced multiple times as they've come and gone.

That doesn’t explain why they need to do it to perfectly serviceable (and better) signs, other than the sort of branding fetish that is frowned on when franchises did it.

 

[Inthewest]

Not really sure I agree with the idea that dark signs are more stylish or classy, and I'm far from convinced I actually want wayfinding signs to be either of those things anyway.

Perhaps it's been pre-conditioned into people but take food packaging for example.
The more expensive versions come with darker colours, while cheaper versions are usually white. White is cheaper yes, but that colour is now connected with being cheap, bland and boring. Hence many vans are white... it's the cheapest.

Even things like kitchens and homeware shops - darker contrasting colours will appear to be more classy and expensive (although most is very much down to taste).

 

[py_megapixel]

Northern have started using the RA2 bus symbol on their posters about engineering works to represent rail replacement buses. It looks a lot like a Wright New Routemaster, which don't operate outside London, making its use as the national symbol a bit silly.

The really bizarre thing is that these posters aren't using RA2 text, they're still using Northern's brand font (Gotham Rounded).

 

[HarryL]

That doesn’t explain why they need to do it to perfectly serviceable (and better) signs, other than the sort of branding fetish that is frowned on when franchises did it.

It's worth noting that the RA2 signage project was started long before GBR was conceived, Network Rail began the process in around 2018 and if GBR hadn't happened, this would still be taking place. A big goal in doing it is to bring back together the fragmented branding that's currently going on. While some ToCs had/have reasonable signage, others really don't and that inconsistency is a problem for things like accessibility, where a universal standard is better suited as to know exactly what to look for and be able to definitely read it.

It looks a lot like a Wright New Routemaster, which don't operate outside London, making its use as the national symbol a bit silly.

Suppose the argument is that if not the New Routemaster, what other bus would they have used? Routemasters are probably the best known bus in the country (albeit moreso the originals) even outside of London and are iconic in many places even outside of the country. So while they have a specific location tied to them, they are still some of the best to use for a pictogram like this in my opinion.

They're also much less likely to date the graphics vs any other bus model that could well be out of service within the signage lifespan.

 

[py_megapixel]

Suppose the argument is that if not the New Routemaster, what other bus would they have used? Routemasters are probably the best known bus in the country (albeit moreso the originals) even outside of London and are iconic in many places even outside of the country. So while they have a specific location tied to them, they are still some of the best to use for a pictogram like this in my opinion.

They're also much less likely to date the graphics vs any other bus model that could well be out of service within the signage lifespan.

The Alexander Dennis Enviro MMC series has become pretty representative of buses across the entire country; why not use that? Given they've proven popular with operators, I reckon they'll be around for a good long time yet. There is no sign that production of them - let alone service use - will be stopping any time soon, not forgetting early original E400s are still running around now after 15 years or more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Alexander Dennis Enviro MMC series has become pretty representative of buses across the entire country; why not use that? Given they've proven popular with operators, I reckon they'll be around for a good long time yet. There is no sign that production of them - let alone service use - will be stopping any time soon, not forgetting early original E400s are still running around now after 15 years or more.

Why not just use the standard road sign pictogram that appears on most bus stop flags?

 

[YorksLad12]

Northern have started using the RA2 bus symbol on their posters about engineering works to represent rail replacement buses. It looks a lot like a Wright New Routemaster, which don't operate outside London, making its use as the national symbol a bit silly.

The really bizarre thing is that these posters aren't using RA2 text, they're still using Northern's brand font (Gotham Rounded).

It was probably designed by someone who got hold of the pictograms and decided to use them without any formal clearance, and then no-one above in the chain of sign-off noticed. Or cared. Which is another good reason to roll out the design philosophy as soon as possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2021 ==

Why not just use the standard road sign pictogram that appears on most bus stop flags?

Because that's old, and this is the new. A crap reason, I grant you, but probably the reason. There was the square pictogram of the front of a bus from the side (with the doors) - perfectly understandable and fitted a square space unlike the traffic sign bus which, it turns out, has a version from the other, doorless side when the sign points in the other direction.

 

[py_megapixel]

Why not just use the standard road sign pictogram that appears on most bus stop flags?

Possibly because it's a long way from square and so wouldn't line up properly in a stack of "plank" signs?

 

[Steddenm]

Years ago signs denoting "bus", "tram" and even "taxi" all faced the same way that the arrow was pointing, the same as the Airport signs do on road signs. For example if the airport was left at a roundabout the nose of the aircraft pointed left, if it was over the roundabout it pointed up etc.

 

[Sprinter158]

I don't like the new RA2 it just looks too simple and bland. I would prefer it to be more like the SWT signage an example of it below

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't like the new RA2 it just looks too simple and bland. I would prefer it to be more like the SWT signage an example of it below

When you say "simple and bland" I assume you are referring to the fact that the signs are plain white with only text on them? I imagine that will change when GBR comes in and has its own logo.

(FWIW the signs they are replacing in Northern-land look similarly bland as neither of the two subsequent Northern operators have replace the Serco-Abellio Northern signage, instead preferring to sticker over the branding elements)

 

[SargeNpton]

When franchises spent money rebranding things this was seen as a bad thing, so why is GBR doing this?

Does GBR exist yet? If it does, does it yet have a budget to spend on station signs?

Or is this just being done by the current station management?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I don't like the new RA2 it just looks too simple and bland. I would prefer it to be more like the SWT signage an example of it below

The spacing between the first two letters looks too large on that sign?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When you say "simple and bland" I assume you are referring to the fact that the signs are plain white with only text on them? I imagine that will change when GBR comes in and has its own logo.

The intention is that it stays plain white, but I do think a simple colour bar at the bottom would really enhance the look. TfW and ScotRail signage looks great with the red and blue bars respectively. It's a shame Wales used red rather than green, as otherwise you'd have had a logical country colour-code there, with red for England, green for Wales and blue for Scotland.

 

[ainsworth74]

Saw some of these in the flesh on Saturday on the Settle-Carlisle and I have to say I think they looked really good overall. Very clear and easy to read. My only comment would be that they could do with colour bar or a bit of branding on the bottom side. Even if it's just an accent a bit like Regional Railways used (as a guide to what I mean, I'm not saying bring back that exact motif!) just to add a little bit of colour to the thing:



(Credit to the Railway Codes website)

But in general terms I think it's a lot better than some efforts by previous TOCs. For instance I think these will be a big step up compared to the sorts of rubbish that Avanti or London Midland produced which I definitely leave a lot to be desired.

 

[nlogax]

Beginning to think this isn't going well. Having now seen multiple examples of RA2 at various stations it's obvious to me that it fails in comparison to the original RA. The lightweight typeface looks lost on signboards and against the backdrop of station infrastructure. One of those situations where the neat mockups on a designer's Mac screen fails to translate into the real world.

And considering it won't be applied everywhere, we are likely watching another 'standard' situation unfolding.

(link to perennial standards XKCD)

 

[py_megapixel]

Beginning to think this isn't going well. Having now seen multiple examples of RA2 at various stations it's obvious to me that it fails in comparison to the original RA. The lightweight typeface looks lost on signboards and against the backdrop of station infrastructure. One of those situations where the neat mockups on a designer's Mac screen fails to translate into the real world.

That's not a problem with the font itself. The problem is that - unlike original RA - they haven't used a bold weight which makes it difficult to pick out. Hopefully they will notice and correct this problem.

The weight they're using incorrectly on signage will look excellent on the new unified online booking system, for example, where the thick letters of the original RA would look cluttered and difficult to read.

 

[nlogax]

The weight they're using incorrectly on signage will look excellent on the new unified online booking system, for example, where the thick letters of the original RA would look cluttered and difficult to read.

RA2 has three weights specifically designed for online use but I see no evidence that these will be taken advantage of for physical signage.

 

[YorksLad12]

The intention is that it stays plain white, but I do think a simple colour bar at the bottom would really enhance the look. TfW and ScotRail signage looks great with the red and blue bars respectively. It's a shame Wales used red rather than green, as otherwise you'd have had a logical country colour-code there, with red for England, green for Wales and blue for Scotland.

England can be green...

"I will not cease from Mental Fight, nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built High Speed Two on England's green and pleasant land"

 

[RailWonderer]

Stagecoach with SWT set the gold standard for signage. Futura font, with some character in the swish. Nothing has come close.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach with SWT set the gold standard for signage. Futura font, with some character in the swish. Nothing has come close.

I must admit I prefer the Network Rail blue signage. That said, SWT wasn't bad, and it's no coincidence that a certain Mr Stenning was involved. I think they should pause all this, set up GBR and then put him on the case.

I know it wasn't to everyone's taste, but in my view his branding package for LM was genius - he turned a boring commuter operation into something quite attractive - and mostly using the train itself as a brand, too.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Futura font

SWT station signs are not in Futura. It looks like NR Brunel.

 

[Sprinter158]

What if they keep existing station signage as it is ( if it isnt NR signage ) and just put a another sign underneath saying for example " Trains ran by SWR and GWR, Station Managed by GBR " escpecially as new TOCs such as Avanti have released new signage and if it just got replaced after a few years it would just be a waste of money

 

[HarryL]

What if they keep existing station signage as it is ( if it isnt NR signage ) and just put a another sign underneath saying for example " Trains ran by SWR and GWR, Station Managed by GBR " escpecially as new TOCs such as Avanti have released new signage and if it just got replaced after a few years it would just be a waste of money

Because those brands will eventually go, the aim is to only have the GBR brand like the BR days. Whether they'll have sub-brands like Regional Railways/Intercity/etc is still yet unknown but there definetly wont be GWR, Avanti, Northern, etc.

GBR will be a rolling program like privatisation, so certain franchises (like Northern and LNER) will be brought under first, and then the rest will follow over the years for a while so at no stage will there be any current franchise managed by GBR. Also the whole point of these new signs are to simplify them and get rid of excess information, adding a board with the very thing they want to get rid of would defeat the purpose.

 

[Sprinter158]

Because those brands will eventually go, the aim is to only have the GBR brand like the BR days. Whether they'll have sub-brands like Regional Railways/Intercity/etc is still yet unknown but there definetly wont be GWR, Avanti, Northern, etc.

Thanks I didnt realise that the franchises would actually go, I thought that they would just go onto the concession process with the same brands whilst GBR took care of everything else.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Because those brands will eventually go, the aim is to only have the GBR brand like the BR days. Whether they'll have sub-brands like Regional Railways/Intercity/etc is still yet unknown but there definetly wont be GWR, Avanti, Northern, etc.

GBR will be a rolling program like privatisation, so certain franchises (like Northern and LNER) will be brought under first, and then the rest will follow over the years for a while so at no stage will there be any current franchise managed by GBR. Also the whole point of these new signs are to simplify them and get rid of excess information, adding a board with the very thing they want to get rid of would defeat the purpose.

That is so happy clappy, it's not true.

GBR so far is a whim, not a plan. It's just a case of a not very good rebranding rather than an attempt to build a functioning rail system.

Honestly, who cares if a crap system is forced to use a particular font or a brand? They might actually prefer to hide their **** behind an 'England and bits of Wales but definitely not Scotland or Northern Ireland pretending it's British' idenity.