How busy have your trains been?

[Spamcan81]

We have a bigger retired population than ever before, and the majority of them are comfortably off due to improvements in pension schemes, property values, and people being able to build up savings. You only have to look at the platforms at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly, almost everyone has a suitcase, and you wouldn't have one of those if you're just popping to the shops.

Many older people prefer to travel in the school holidays.

Increases in property values do not make the owners “comfortably well off” unless they sell and buy something cheaper. Until then a house value is just a figure on paper.

 

[The Ham]

Increases in property values do not make the owners “comfortably well off” unless they sell and buy something cheaper. Until then a house value is just a figure on paper.

However given that half of owner occupiers have two or more spare rooms there's likely to be scope to do so by some.

If they're not willing to do that then they could earn up to £7,500/year tax free by renting the room(s) out. That should give them plenty to then have a large holiday home for a week (or two weeks but spread over the year) so all the family can be together (even if it's earning £250/month).

 

[trainophile]

Increases in property values do not make the owners “comfortably well off” unless they sell and buy something cheaper. Until then a house value is just a figure on paper.

I was thinking of downsizers, bungalow seekers etc.

 

[deltic]

I'm not demonising it, just making the point that this market doesn't really cover its costs. The teenagers and children won't be filling weekday trains with leisure trips this time next month because they'll be at school, and this year's leisure boom will likewise tail off from September onwards as (1) fewer people are on leave, (2) people return to the workplace, (3) pent-up demand easer, and (4) weather tails off and days get shorter. Then what are we left with?

Planning a recovery based on leisure is very risky because of so many factors, not least the discretionary nature of leisure journeys. They're very sensitive to a range of factors, not least price - jack the price up too much and the journey won't happen, which is not good news for an industry which needs to cover costs.

At the moment I'd be looking to get back those commuters who *are* currently travelling to/from a workplace but are using other means, specifically the car. The way to do that is to offer them reliability, space and comfort. Max out train lengths (which the London & South East area fortunately has the infrastructure to do), reduce the number of services running in order to trim staff costs, and try and sort the current issues with reliability.

According to the National Travel Survey, in 2002 the average person in England travelled 175 miles by rail for commuting and 177 for leisure. By 2019 that had increased to 235 for commuting and 267 for leisure. Total miles traveled by rail for all purposes rose from 482 to 687. So growth in rail use has been mainly for non-commuting reasons. There are plenty of people who dont have children who travel for leisure throughout the year.

Its not clear how many former rail commuters are travelling by other modes rather than still working from home given the main commuter markets are to city centres where car parking is either not available or relatively expensive.

 

[Kite159]

Decent little load heading to Rosslare on the Fishguard boat train today, mostly originating in Swansea with a fair few connecting off the ex-Manchester.

Fair load heading back too, with more joining at Fishguard & Goodwick.

At a guess around 30 alighting at Fishguard & Goodwick and around 20 or so boarded

Got quite busy after Carmarthen (and there was a good crowd at Llanelli who I assume was waiting for the 150 behind it to go into Swansea)



---------------

The 150 on a Manchester - Milford Haven service before the Fishguard was reasonably busy (from Neath at least), but heading back towards Cardiff later in the day I had a private coach on a 800 from Pembrey until Bridgend, although looked like it was going to be swamped by Millwall kickball fans. The coach on the Portsmouth train wasn't that busy until Warminster where some people who had been out to the Imber bus boarded.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In the below, I have only detailed the route of each of the trains for the sections on which I was on board. This relates to Saturday 21st August.


10.49 Epsom - Clapham Junction, 8 car formation ( 455 865 + 455 708 ), lightly loaded upon leaving Epsom but picked up around 100 people at each of Ewell West, Stoneleigh and Worcester Park resulting in most seats occupied from there onwards.

11.19 Clapham Junction - Shepherd's Bush, 5 car formation ( 378 232 ), full and standing throughout upon departure - at least half the total got off with me at Shepherd's Bush... no doubt all heading to the shopping centre, like me...

12.19 Shepherd's Bush to East Croydon, 8 car formation ( 377 213 + 377 208 ); virtually every seat taken. A similar load observed on the one going the other way which we passed at Clapham Junction at just before 12.40.

13.33 Thornton Heath - Balham, 4 car formation ( 455 840 ); most seats taken.

13.53 Balham - Epsom, 5 car formation ( 377 704 ), most seats taken - gradually emptied out after Mitcham Junction; 25% loaded by Epsom.

 

[Killingworth]

It's all but impossible to judge how busy a particular train compares with pre-Covid due to so many variable factors. I intended to use TPEs 14.26 from Cleethorpes but it was cancelled so had to take the 15.26. Not surprisingly it was heavily loaded. Some stood, but there were probably seats available if they were prepared to sit next to strangers. It was a noisy train and there was a constant queue for the toilet. I left it at Sheffield.

EMR have removed some-Covid hourly fast trains from the timetable between Sheffield and Manchester (like 14.45) and their 17.45 was cancelled today. These will all have impacted loadings on other trains, including the 3 car 195 Northern stopping services.

The Department for Transport's latest table showing Domestic transport use by mode: Great Britain, since 1 March 2020 * suggests overall national rail use may be in the range 55-60%. That will include extremes in both directions. My observations of station car parks where commuting and business travel used to dominate suggests that market is still a long way down, possibly nearer 25-30% in many places. On the plus side, most commuter cars are single occupant, whereas a high proportion of leisure users cars are multi-occupant. Leisure is well up to 2019 levels at my local station, possibly higher since 195s have replaced Pacers.

*The full table is in the link; https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...a64b-41e1-8d17-81524be50040&utm_content=daily

 

[bramling]

It's all but impossible to judge how busy a particular train compares with pre-Covid due to so many variable factors. I intended to use TPEs 14.26 from Cleethorpes but it was cancelled so had to take the 15.26. Not surprisingly it was heavily loaded. Some stood, but there were probably seats available if they were prepared to sit next to strangers. It was a noisy train and there was a constant queue for the toilet. I left it at Sheffield.

EMR have removed some-Covid hourly fast trains from the timetable between Sheffield and Manchester (like 14.45) and their 17.45 was cancelled today. These will all have impacted loadings on other trains, including the 3 car 195 Northern stopping services.

The Department for Transport's latest table showing Domestic transport use by mode: Great Britain, since 1 March 2020 * suggests overall national rail use may be in the range 55-60%. That will include extremes in both directions. My observations of station car parks where commuting and business travel used to dominate suggests that market is still a long way down, possibly nearer 25-30% in many places. On the plus side, most commuter cars are single occupant, whereas a high proportion of leisure users cars are multi-occupant. Leisure is well up to 2019 levels at my local station, possibly higher since 195s have replaced Pacers.

*The full table is in the link; https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...a64b-41e1-8d17-81524be50040&utm_content=daily

The interesting question is what will happen come early September, when for definite there will be children at school, and not so many adults taking annual leave. With the absence of foreign holidays this year is untypical - the weather has been iffy too since the warm spell in early July. My observation is a lot of journeys seem to be people doing “time filling” activities, in London for example a lot of journeys seem to revolve around people visiting hospitality venues.

I must say I find things rather dystopian at the moment, this whole period has rather exposed the way most people in this country nowadays seem to lack hobbies and pastimes, and the number one go-to for occupying a day seems to be to find a cafe to visit!

 

[Killingworth]

The interesting question is what will happen come early September, when for definite there will be children at school, and not so many adults taking annual leave. With the absence of foreign holidays this year is untypical - the weather has been iffy too since the warm spell in early July. My observation is a lot of journeys seem to be people doing “time filling” activities, in London for example a lot of journeys seem to revolve around people visiting hospitality venues.

I must say I find things rather dystopian at the moment, this whole period has rather exposed the way most people in this country nowadays seem to lack hobbies and pastimes, and the number one go-to for occupying a day seems to be to find a cafe to visit!

Weather has been worse in the south than up north

Universities go back end of Seltember so by October we'll get a better idea of how things are settling down.

 

[Segedunum]

At a guess around 30 alighting at Fishguard & Goodwick and around 20 or so boarded

Got quite busy after Carmarthen (and there was a good crowd at Llanelli who I assume was waiting for the 150 behind it to go into Swansea)

View attachment 101445

---------------

The 150 on a Manchester - Milford Haven service before the Fishguard was reasonably busy (from Neath at least), but heading back towards Cardiff later in the day I had a private coach on a 800 from Pembrey until Bridgend, although looked like it was going to be swamped by Millwall kickball fans. The coach on the Portsmouth train wasn't that busy until Warminster where some people who had been out to the Imber bus boarded.

That 150 from Manchester (0630 departure) was reasonably well loaded from Manchester to Shrewsbury, most seats taken by Hereford, all taken by Abergavenny then full and standing from Pontypool to Newport.

I should know, I suffered the thing all the way to Swansea

 

[peteb]

Late running 1214 Wolverhampton to Manchester XC 8 car voyager pretty busy despite no Crewe stop. Masks worn by 50%. 1655 Manchester to Euston Avanti Pendo busy on departing Piccadilly, again masks worn by about 50%. Sadly the coughing bloke and the drunk both maskless.....

1803 Crewe to Wolverhampton (ex Edinburgh strangely devoid of passengers in rear 3 carriages, only 4 of us in quiet coach), but masks 100%!

 

[Killingworth]

Abandoned our walk in the Hope Valley, washed out by torrential rain. Caught 16.40 from Bamford, 15.45 from Piccadilly. Northern 4 car 150, Very well loaded with many standees, although most could have been seated if bags had been put on racks or on the floor! Amazing.

Reason? All EMR hourly Liverpool-Sheffield Sunday services cancelled ufn due to RMT strike action. TPE 15.18 cancelled between Manchester and Sheffield due to cancellation of incoming train.

Well done to Northern for providing the 4 car train. If I were assessing how busy it was I'd be getting a false impression of normal numbers. If the other 2 TOCs had provided their normal 10 carriages on the route in that hour it would have looked very different.

Postscript, Sheffield side of Totley Tunnel was dry!

 

[yorksrob]

Had a fine day on Saturday spotting lizards in the lake district.

Everything felt like a normal Saturday.

Forwent one TPE from Leeds to Man Pic which was a 3 carriage 185 and standing room only. the next train to Vic was five carriages and busy but not crush loaded (all doubles taken. Quietish four carriage from Vic to Wigan Wallgate (heading for Kirby).

Saw a 3 carriage Northern service go through Wigan NW towards Barrow which looked uncomfortably loaded. Waited for the following Pendolino to Glasgow, which was very busy - almost every double taken (managed to find a window seat though).

Little North Western back from Lancaster was a much more sedate affair, with passengers back but plenty of room. The last stopper from Leeds on the Hallam was a 2 carriage 158 and standing room only until Cass !

Trip to Buxton via the Hope Valley on Friday was unsurprisingly calmer. Passengers are beginning to twig that there are six carriages on the TPE expresses, however if you know where to wait on Platform 6 at Sheffield, an uncrowded journey is still to be had. The hen doo's are back. Was treated to a Su Pollard lookalike in a leopard skin leotard dancing in the aisle !

I was quite impressed in how well the 4 carriage Buxton services are loading for mid day trips on a weekday. Not crowded by any means but busy. The Hope Valley stopper on the way back was also well peopled.

 

[philosopher]

10:30 today Edinburgh Waverley to London Kings Cross. About 80% to 90% of the seats taken in the two carriages I saw between York and London. Train was quieter further north. I even had someone sitting next to me after York.

Kings Cross station looked very busy on arrival, but I think another Edinburgh train might have arrived just before the one I was on.

 

[trainophile]

Had a fine day on Saturday spotting lizards in the lake district.

Everything felt like a normal Saturday.

Forgive me for flagging this, but it did make me . How other people spend their Saturdays eh?

 

[peteb]

Abandoned our walk in the Hope Valley, washed out by torrential rain. Caught 16.40 from Bamford, 15.45 from Piccadilly. Northern 4 car 150, Very well loaded with many standees, although most could have been seated if bags had been put on racks or on the floor! Amazing.

Reason? All EMR hourly Liverpool-Sheffield Sunday services cancelled ufn due to RMT strike action. TPE 15.18 cancelled between Manchester and Sheffield due to cancellation of incoming train.

Well done to Northern for providing the 4 car train. If I were assessing how busy it was I'd be getting a false impression of normal numbers. If the other 2 TOCs had provided their normal 10 carriages on the route in that hour it would have looked very different.

Postscript, Sheffield side of Totley Tunnel was dry!

Bad luck with the rain, Manchester was sunny all afternoon......

 

[yorksrob]

Forgive me for flagging this, but it did make me . How other people spend their Saturdays eh?

I would recommend it - fascinating little creatures. Would have liked to have seen a slowworm though !

 

[Killingworth]

Bad luck with the rain, Manchester was sunny all afternoon......

We know, there was a line of cloud running up and down the Pennines. Apparently it was also dry towards New Mills, west of Cowburn Tunnel!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I got forced onto a Victoria Line train at Euston on Friday there were so many people on the platform, first crush loaded train I've been on since covid.

On Friday 16:59 Milton Keynes to Euston had every seat taken on departure from Milton Keynes, first time I've had someone else sit next to me on an Avanti service since covid.

London Bridge had a good stream of passengers on Saturday evening. Not extremely busy anything but a good number.

However though, a trip on SWR to Brentford on Friday shows where the missing passengers are. SWR commuters services, while some had almost all seats taken I saw no trains with any passengers standing, and most had spare seats. And this was Friday evening.

In my experience, long distance travel is returning in pretty large numbers, matched by the things LNER are saying. But the peaks are still a long way off, in fact in many cases an equivalent peak train is less busy than an off peak train. I travel to and from Euston regularly, and particularly the peak LNWR services are down on numbers. For example, the 17:46 train to Crewe which was the most overcrowded train in the country pre covid, now while it has someone sitting in every row of seats, its such a long way off from pre covid levels.

The passenger recovery has a long way to go, but I think there should be some optimism and there are defintley good signs. Anyone that thought passengers would never return is clearly wrong, but at roughly about 60% of pre covid passengers, the industry still has a long way to go and tough times ahead. Lets hope the recovery continues.

 

[yorksrob]

The one thing we can say is that a large proportion of former passengers clearly don't fear train travel, as some initially feared. Wgether they'll be inclined to return to the commute five days a week, may be another matter !

 

[Killingworth]

The one thing we can say is that a large proportion of former passengers clearly don't fear train travel, as some initially feared. Wgether they'll be inclined to return to the commute five days a week, may be another matter !

After managing work from home for almost 18 months employers are increasingly happy to continue. Longer term how much office space will be needed? Employees are mostly happy to save maybe 3 hours travel time and all the cost.

If we see a major return to offices it will be the pull of social interaction, security, and training.

 

[westv]

After managing work from home for almost 18 months employers are increasingly happy to continue. Longer term how much office space will be needed? Employees are mostly happy to save maybe 3 hours travel time and all the cost.

If we see a major return to offices it will be the pull of social interaction, security, and training.

Our City employer is insisting that everybody does at least 3 days a week in the office from 1/9 and the word is that they will insist on 5 days a week sometime next year.
I doubt I'll be staying.

 

[peteb]

Our City employer is insisting that everybody does at least 3 days a week in the office from 1/9 and the word is that they will insist on 5 days a week sometime next year.
I doubt I'll be staying.

In the public sector there's a real difficulty in recruiting for jobs at present, mainly because pay is lagging behind private sector, despite the offset of supposed "job security" (not as secure as you'd think) and if this sector is insisting on office working in city centres I can see this recruiting issue getting worse. Kidderminster to Birmingham commuter trains now at 50% fewer passengers generally, and car park still half empty most days, pre covid it was full by 9am!

 

[The Ham]

Our City employer is insisting that everybody does at least 3 days a week in the office from 1/9 and the word is that they will insist on 5 days a week sometime next year.
I doubt I'll be staying.

Doing some office working from September is likely to fairly common across quite a few companies, although many who are encouraging that aren't then looking for fully back to the office longer term.

Some are even allowing that you can work (within limitations on not in certain countries, using a topical example not in Afghanistan) for up to 3 months of the year not in the "home" country (3 months is so that you are then not resident of that other country for tax purposes, which could get messy if there's two places with 3+ months of residency).

However even then there would be an expectation to be in the office a reasonable amount the rest of the time, so that the average in the office over the year was over 20%.

 

[Killingworth]

Doing some office working from September is likely to fairly common across quite a few companies, although many who are encouraging that aren't then looking for fully back to the office longer term.

Some are even allowing that you can work (within limitations on not in certain countries, using a topical example not in Afghanistan) for up to 3 months of the year not in the "home" country (3 months is so that you are then not resident of that other country for tax purposes, which could get messy if there's two places with 3+ months of residency).

However even then there would be an expectation to be in the office a reasonable amount the rest of the time, so that the average in the office over the year was over 20%.

It's a changing world. Both my sons were working from home some days pre-Covid. Now it's permanent. They have team members living in Lithuania, India, Ireland etc. For a few more years the grandsons will be commuting to school with Greater Anglia so that will help from next month.

 

[D6130]

SATURDAY 21st AUGUST 2021:

1A63,10 22 Bradford Interchange-King's Cross (5 car 180): Approx 50% full from Halifax and 75% from Doncaster. Mask wearing approx 50%.
2L69, 21 12 Waterloo-Basingstoke (alighting Farnborough - 4 car 450): Full from Waterloo with a few standing. Mask wearing approx 50%.

SUNDAY 22nd AUGUST 2021:

2L29, 10 40 Waterloo-Basingstoke (8 car 450): Approx 50% full on boarding at Farnborough. Mask wearing approx. 50%.
1B60, 15 55 Poole-Waterloo (10 car 444): Nearly full on boarding at Basingstoke, full and standing from Woking. Mask wearing approx 50%.

 

[geoffk]

I've been travelling on a Devon Day Ranger ticket today. I used nine trains, of which one was a 2-car 150, one a two-car 165, one "Castle" HST, two six-car SWR 159s and four IETs (2x5 or 9 car). The IETs were the least busy and I had no problem find a table with facing seats all to myself. The busiest trains were, as you would expect, the two-car locals - I stood from Newton Abbot to Paignton at 10.17 as a preceding XC service had dropped off a lot of connecting passengers. Then my train home from Exeter Central to Polsloe Bridge at 16.50 had folks standing, although some seats were empty but many are still reluctant to sit next to another person. Both the SWR trips (Exeter to Axminster and back mid-afternoon) were busy (40 to 50% full). I made a "negative" connection at Axminster and avoided an hour's wait! The Castle HST was from St. Davids to Newton Abbot (ex Gloucester) at 09.25 and that too was fairly quiet. My ticket was checked just three times on trains and I went through the gate at Plymouth (those at Newton Abbot had been left open). It's difficult to count heads on the IET without walking along the train as the seat backs are so high. The 68-mile run from Plymouth to Tiverton Parkway was my longest rail journey since Covid began.

 

[dk1]

I can’t help but wonder if some TOCs particularly in the London & SE are going to get caught out in the week commencing Monday 6th September. It has been noted the concerns from many about how busy some trains have become leading up to the school holidays & with many planning to head back into the office as the holidays end, the next uplift of the timetable isn’t planned until 13th September. That could be quite an interesting interim week which I expect their Twitter feeds will reflect.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can’t help but wonder if some TOCs particularly in the London & SE are going to get caught out in the week commencing Monday 6th September. It has been noted the concerns from many about how busy some trains have become leading up to the school holidays & with many planning to head back into the office as the holidays end, the next uplift of the timetable isn’t planned until 13th September. That could be quite an interesting interim week which I expect their Twitter feeds will reflect.

The LSE TOCs are still carrying lots of fresh air in the peaks. The busy trains in that part of the world aren’t in the peak, generally.

 

[dk1]

The LSE TOCs are still carrying lots of fresh air in the peaks. The busy trains in that part of the world aren’t in the peak, generally.

They most certainly are well patronised on my patch into Liverpool St with the reduced service particularly outer suburban. That week will be a teller I feel unless some extra services or 12v8 at the very least are run.