What do you need/where can you divide trains?

[The Barlow Boy]

I think what the other posters are trying to say is that the main and subsidiary aspects together count as one signal. If the position light says you can proceed then the signal as a whole is not "at danger" regardless of what the main aspect says.

RalphChadkirkhas now realised it.
A Driver must obey a red signal and stop at it. If the subsidiary (dictionary definition of subsidiary is "supplementary to") signal is then cleared the driver is then authorised to pass the main aspect at red - which remains illuminated at red. The main aspect must and will remain at red because:
i) technically - both by interlocking and rules - it cannot be cleared because
the section of line to the next stop signal and the overlap beyond is
occupied and
ii) to remind the driver that the train is entering an occupied section
That is why if such a move is being made at a location where there is no subsidiary provided the signalman will verbally authorise the driver to pass the signal at danger. The subsidiary signal takes the place of that signalman's verbal instruction/permission.

 

[O L Leigh]

The main aspect shows a red but you are not passing a signal at danger. If the associated position light signal failed to clear and you had to be "talked past" the signal into an occupied platform then, yes, you would be passing a signal at danger. However, the clearance of the associated position light means that, irrespective of the red main aspect, you are NOT passing the signal at danger.

The clearance of a signal is always your authority to proceed, whether it's a main aspect signal or a position light signal. It's not a special arrangement whereby the signal clearance is inferred as being the signallers permission and instructions to pass a signal at danger. You can proceed past an associated position light signal because the signal is no longer considered to be at danger irrespective of the red light showing on the main aspect signal. There are no instructions relating to such a movement as there would have to be if you needed to go into an occupied section and no associated position light signal was provided.

This is the key thing that I want YOU to understand, because this is now the second thread where you've attempted to batter me (and others) into coming around to your point of view. A red main aspect signal with a lit associated position light signal is NOT considered to be a danger signal. I appreciate that this might have been the case in the past but it is no longer the case now.

O L Leigh

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The main aspect shows a red but you are not passing a signal at danger. If the associated position light signal failed to clear and you had to be "talked past" the signal into an occupied platform then, yes, you would be passing a signal at danger. However, the clearance of the associated position light means that, irrespective of the red main aspect, you are NOT passing the signal at danger.

The clearance of a signal is always your authority to proceed, whether it's a main aspect signal or a position light signal. It's not a special arrangement whereby the signal clearance is inferred as being the signallers permission and instructions to pass a signal at danger. You can proceed past an associated position light signal because the signal is no longer considered to be at danger irrespective of the red light showing on the main aspect signal. There are no instructions relating to such a movement as there would have to be if you needed to go into an occupied section and no associated position light signal was provided.

This is the key thing that I want YOU to understand, because this is now the second thread where you've attempted to batter me (and others) into coming around to your point of view. A red main aspect signal with a lit associated position light signal is NOT considered to be a danger signal. I appreciate that this might have been the case in the past but it is no longer the case now.

O L Leigh

No-one's trying to "batter you into a point of view". What I'm trying to do is to get you to understand that a red light is a stop signal which means just that. What I can't understand is how you can't accept that to pass a stop signal a Driver need authorisation either by a subsidiary sigal or verbal instruction. I've tried to explain as simply as I can that when passing the stop signal the main aspect remains at red because it cannot and must not be cleared as the section ahead is occupied.
I've no idea how and why you don't seem to accept that. I'm assuming that you're a rail professional and if so you have been taught badly with poor explanations of the how and why. If you're trying to tell me that a red light is not a stop signal nowadays then the entire principal of railway signalling has been abandoned - which I'm confident hasn't.

 

[O L Leigh]

I've no idea how and why you don't seem to accept that.

Er, because I've read the CURRENT Rule Book...?

How many more times? A red main aspect with a lit associated position light signal does not mean "Stop". I know why it has to display a red main aspect, as I have clearly explained this at least once already, but I also know that by proceeding under the authority of an associated position light signal a train is NOT passing a signal at danger.

I have said all of this more than once already and am going to repeat this line as often as I deem it necessary to do so.

O L Leigh

 

[moggie]

Hard work isn't it OL Leigh - you of course are correct? Let me have a go for what it's worth.

A main aspect displaying Y or YY or FY or FYY or G or Red plus a Position Light (PL) aspect are all standard signalling proceed aspects with the appropriate security of the interlocking. They all carry a discreet meaning to the driver as defined in the rule book. If you receive a PL proceed aspect at the signal you are not passing a red signal as you have a proceed aspect. Therefore 'permission' to pass the signal is not required. The driver will drive in accordance with the aspect displayed. If a driver is required to pass a signal that is not displaying a proceed aspect, permission from the signaller is required before the movement commences to ensure appropriate protection of the movement is provided (either by interlocking or manual securing of the route) - passable plated signals excepted.

If a movement to an occupied line is being made under the authority of a PL aspect the signaller may first reach an understanding with the driver of the train as to the nature of the intended movement prior to clearance of the PL signal. I Understand this is the normal situation where the intended movement is not a timetabled move.

Anyone interested in the interlocking principles can read GK/RT0044.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Firstly it helps to read the rule book. Copies can be obtained. The principles of signalling are clear with small variations to aid local situations.

Red, of course, means STOP. A position light signal when illuminated is a PROCEED indication. It is best to think of it like this rather than in terms of passing anything at danger.(The signal is not at danger but is showing a particular warning ) A signal may show many proceed aspects, one of which is the position light, which indicates the section ahead is occupied. Usually these are cleared only when the train has been brought to a stand for safe working.

Drivers are trained in all the different aspects to be found at particular stations and the local rules which apply due to track layout and gradients etc.

To pass a signal at danger is only carried out on the precise instructions of the signaller (mostly after failure of signal interlocking) and the driver must be prepared to stop at any time.
If the driver needs to be advised of caution ahead then the signal should be cleared after the driver has spoken to the box.

Hmmph

 

[Failed Unit]

I can't seriously believe some is question a drivers knowledge about his job! If O L Liegh on others were wrong on this point they would not be driving trains! They would have had the p45 by now! You can't do safety critical job like driving trains without knowing basic rules and O L Liegh has a reputation of knowing what he is talking about and about 3 maybe 4 by now years experience to back it up. Let's go back to mechinal signalling I remember the small stub at Lincoln high street which had the same job letting a train into an occupied section on absolute block.

 

[TDK]

I can't seriously believe some is question a drivers knowledge about his job! If O L Liegh on others were wrong on this point they would not be driving trains! They would have had the p45 by now! You can't do safety critical job like driving trains without knowing basic rules and O L Liegh has a reputation of knowing what he is talking about and about 3 maybe 4 by now years experience to back it up. Let's go back to mechinal signalling I remember the small stub at Lincoln high street which had the same job letting a train into an occupied section on absolute block.

The stillhave these at Shrewsbury, miniture calling on signals with an associated miniture theatre box, you can get a letter "C" for calling on or the letter "W" for waring (This means the overlapof the next signal is still occupied but the platform is not)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry old fruit, but that is not included as one of the 15 reasons still listed within the Rules why you may be authorised to pass a signal at danger. The closest you get is where a "...section signal is to be passed at danger for shunting purposes" (S5 A 1.1), but this suggests something a little out of the ordinary to deal with some sort of out-of-course situation rather than a regular method of working (e.g. permissive working). No mention is made of subsidiary signals at all within this section.

However your explanation is actually not so very far from my own, particularly where it relates to the reasons why the main aspect signal cannot be cleared. The key difference is that you are not being authorised to pass a signal at danger. The associated position light signal is almost like having an additional proceed aspect on the main aspect signal but with a specific meaning. The fact that the main aspect signal will continue to show red is neither here nor there.

O L Leigh

I think you missunderstandings between the two of you are the way these posts have been written. If a sub signal is clear and the main aspect is red you are infact passing the main aspect displaying a stop indication but not passing a signalat danger as the susidiary signal overides the red aspect.

In the rule book it quotes "passing a signal at danger" meaing passing a red signal with or without authority, passing a red aspect with a subsidiary signal showing a red aspect is not passing a signal at danger as the signal is not indicating STOP!!!! Can you make sense of that?????

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I can't seriously believe some is question a drivers knowledge about his job! If O L Liegh on others were wrong on this point they would not be driving trains! They would have had the p45 by now! You can't do safety critical job like driving trains without knowing basic rules and O L Liegh has a reputation of knowing what he is talking about and about 3 maybe 4 by now years experience to back it up. Let's go back to mechinal signalling I remember the small stub at Lincoln high street which had the same job letting a train into an occupied section on absolute block.

I've no doubt that O L Leigh knows what he's talking about with his "....3 maybe 4 years experience by now...." as you're quoting.
Perhaps I too know what I'm talking about. I spent some years as a regional headquarters rules instructor and have -in three weeks time - forty one years of operational experience ranging from railman to railway operations manager. Believe me, I really do know what I'm talking about. What is obvious here is the lack of reasoning and understanding that is taught nowadays seemingly from a book rather than experienced based knowledge.
Now, as I've stated before, if the rule book is now suggesting that a train passing a signal showing red by being authorised to is not passing a signal at danger, then over 150 years of signalling practice has been undone by someone's lack of interpretation. I'm glad I'm retiring in December!

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps I too know what I'm talking about. I spent some years as a regional headquarters rules instructor and have -in three weeks time - forty one years of operational experience ranging from railman to railway operations manager. Believe me, I really do know what I'm talking about. What is obvious here is the lack of reasoning and understanding that is taught nowadays seemingly from a book rather than experienced based knowledge.

Now, as I've stated before, if the rule book is now suggesting that a train passing a signal showing red by being authorised to is not passing a signal at danger, then over 150 years of signalling practice has been undone by someone's lack of interpretation.

Perhaps you do, but it would seem that you consider the Rules to be a fixed and immoveable when in fact it is a living document that changes over time to reflect the knowledge that comes from experience.

Besides, what I say is not an interpretation of the Rules but taken directly from the current edition. The clearance of a subsidiary signal is no longer listed as one of the 15 instances in which you can pass a signal at danger. Why? Because the clearance of a subsidiary signal is a proceed aspect that in this instance, and this instance alone, modifies the meaning of the red main aspect. Don't believe me? Go and check the current Rule Book.

I'm glad I'm retiring in December!

I hope you enjoy your retirement.

O L Leigh

 

[causton]

What I'm trying to do is to get you to understand that a red light is a stop signal which means just that.

This, on a road, is also a stop signal.

http://www.haynes.co.uk/wcsstore/HaynesPublishing/images/features/Learn-to-Drive-photos1.jpg

However, it allows people to go through in a certain situation (in this example, if they are turning left).
It is therefore not going through the traffic lights at red if you go through it, even if the main aspect shows red.