• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

Status
Not open for further replies.

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,641
Yeah. Splitting the media city or eccles services between a route via Cornbrook and a route via Salford Central enables an even split of services eitherside of St. Peters Sq.
And with a second Eccles routing, a loop? Adds a branch though, assuming 5tph on each (could be 3tph Atherton, 2tph Eccles>Salford I guess?)


If encouraging active travel as it's called is selfish - what sad world we live in.

If the provision right now offers bike spaces, then whatever replaces it must as well. This is why I think Metrolink'ing most lines in and around Manchester is stupid - because you sacrifice too much.
Keeping someone else from boarding the train by taking up the space of 2-3 people with a possession is selfish, yes. People come before bikes. Active travel would be cycling your ass into Manchester.

The key here is the stock - and yes potentially peak AM restrictions. It's not really that draconian and much better than today.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
And with a second Eccles routing, a loop? Adds a branch though, assuming 5tph on each (could be 3tph Atherton, 2tph Eccles>Salford I guess?)



Keeping someone else from boarding the train by taking up the space of 2-3 people with a possession is selfish, yes. People come before bikes. Active travel would be cycling your ass into Manchester.

The key here is the stock - and yes potentially peak AM restrictions. It's not really that draconian and much better than today.

The TfGM 2040 plan appears to have aspirations for a new link line towards Salford Crescent, which would link up to the route of the converted Atherton line. That would give Eccles & Media City a second route in to the centre of Manchester, which for Eccles is presumably faster than the multiple stops through Salford Quays.

However that would enable an even balance across the network. Cornbrook-St.Peters Sq appears to have capacity for 40 tph, therefore we could have the following east & west of St. Peter’s Sq:
  • 40 tph Deansgate
  • 20 tph Piccadilly:
  • 25 tph Victoria
  • 15 tph Salford Central
This could split services as follows:
  • 5 Airport - Middleton
  • 5 Trafford Centre - Ashton
  • 5 Altrincham - Bury
  • 5 Altrincham - Glossop/Hadfield
  • 5 East Didsbury - Eccles/MediaCity via Salford Central
  • 5 East Didsbury - Atherton
  • 5 Rochdale - Eccles/Media City via Cornbrook
  • 5 Eccles/Media City Loop via SPS
  • 5 Bury - Rose Hill
  • 5 Rochdale - Ashton
That means it’s only if a tram-train line to Warrington came along would a tunnel be required in the city centre.
 
Joined
23 Apr 2012
Messages
396
Location
Greater manchester.
It was every 6 minutes in 1961 at peak periods, according to the London Midland Region timetable on the Timetable World website.
Thanks I will check out that website. Of course back then -Car ownership was on the increase and soon after the Bury line lost its Sunday service. Some stations were even mentioned in the Beeching report to be closed- But thankfully they survived.
 

LittleAH

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
1,211
Keeping someone else from boarding the train by taking up the space of 2-3 people with a possession is selfish, yes. People come before bikes. Active travel would be cycling your ass into Manchester.

The key here is the stock - and yes potentially peak AM restrictions. It's not really that draconian and much better than today.
How about providing a service for everyone, taking a bike on a train isn't selfish.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,641
How about providing a service for everyone, taking a bike on a train isn't selfish.
That's taking a quote out of context.

On a 2 car tram, 8am on a weekday - packed. Having a full-sized bike, likely in the vestibule/by the doors, which means people cannot board and thus have to wait for another train, is selfish. Hands down. Humans over hobbies.

Other than that scenario, I 100% support it. I cycle. But that is a fair carve out. Cycling is elective, vs being able to get to work on time.
 

LittleAH

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
1,211
That's taking a quote out of context.

On a 2 car tram, 8am on a weekday - packed. Having a full-sized bike, likely in the vestibule/by the doors, which means people cannot board and thus have to wait for another train, is selfish. Hands down. Humans over hobbies.

Other than that scenario, I 100% support it. I cycle. But that is a fair carve out. Cycling is elective, vs being able to get to work on time.
Merseyrail can manage it on their new fleet. So should Metrolink if they want to tram-train links which currently carry bikes.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,641
Basically this. They should provide the same offerings (within reason) as the railway currently does or they shouldn't be allowed full access of that line, simple as.
I don't disagree with that. Especially with Glossop in consideration.

I'm talking about today's Met, and more specifically, today's stock. The next ones should be akin to Civity units, much longer and better suited to bikes.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
How about providing a service for everyone, taking a bike on a train isn't selfish.
I have never read a more obvious statement in my life! Even the suggestion that taking a bike on a train is selfish makes me feel physically sick.
Merseyrail can manage it on their new fleet. So should Metrolink if they want to tram-train links which currently carry bikes.
I should add that Merseyrail have also been able to manage it with no problems on their existing 1970s fleet since at least 2003 when it’s mid life refurbishment provided dedicated bike spaces.

With Merseyrail running my local line, being able to take a bike on a train feels natural to me whereas unnecessary features like toilets feel completely alien.

That said, I wonder where Merseyrail found the additional space for bikes. Space not being taken up by toilets has its benefits. I know what I’d rather use it for.
Basically this. They should provide the same offerings (within reason) as the railway currently does or they shouldn't be allowed full access of that line, simple as.
Do you think this Metrolink offering should include toilets. I don’t but then I can barely see the need for them even on full length InterCity services and am all for their removal. Journeys from Atherton or Rose Hill Marple to Manchester are actually shorter than some journeys on Merseyrail with no need for toilets, not to mention current Metrolink services.

If people were going to insist on the inclusion of toilets, I can’t see how they’d do it. It’s way too much space to waste on a 2 car tram, but there’s no way to walk between them when running in multiple. It’s something that could only be considered on a much longer length unit, but even then I don’t think it would be worth it. Note that the both the T&W Metro and DLR have ordered longer new stock to replace older fleets which perpetually run in multiple.
I don't disagree with that. Especially with Glossop in consideration.

I'm talking about today's Met, and more specifically, today's stock. The next ones should be akin to Civity units, much longer and better suited to bikes.
They could just leave Glossop as heavy rail and run into a tunnel since it’s not really a light rail line.

It’s about time they start seriously blurring the boundaries between light and heavy rail. What’s been ordered from Stadler for Merseyrail is considered heavy rail but the same design for the T&W Metro is considered light rail. How exactly can it be both?

The Civitys are hardly street running material. Surely what’s needed, rather than anything emphatically light or heavy, is a “Super middleweight” high floor articulated tram-train of ~65m length with a top speed of 75mph and all important bike spaces.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
3,601
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Surely what’s needed, rather than anything emphatically light or heavy, is a “Super middleweight” high floor articulated tram-train of ~65m length with a top speed of 75mph and all important bike spaces.
I would not wish to meet such a vehicle when driving along Hollyhedge Road. It is not practical to fit longer/heavier vehicles on Metrolink, given the tight curves and street-running on various parts of the network.

The idea that bicycles should be accommodated on buses and trams is stupid - they are for the many, not the selfish few.

They should provide the same offerings (within reason) as the railway currently does or they shouldn't be allowed full access of that line, simple as.
Again, if the alternative to conversion to Metrolink is run-down and eventual closure, then some things need to be sacrificed, such as bicycle-carrying capability.
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Do you think this Metrolink offering should include toilets. I don’t but then I can barely see the need for them even on full length InterCity services and am all for their removal. Journeys from Atherton or Rose Hill Marple to Manchester are actually shorter than some journeys on Merseyrail with no need for toilets, not to mention current Metrolink services.
I don't think you understand what I meant by "within reason". I'm not the purveyor of what is reasonable but if the railway currently can take bikes and dogs, any Metrolink conversion should be expected to do the same or the current rail service should still operate alongside the trams.

The toilet problem could just be solved by placing toilets at select stations along the route.
Again, if the alternative to conversion to Metrolink is run-down and eventual closure, then some things need to be sacrificed, such as bicycle-carrying capability.
Again, another person not reading the post properly. I said shouldn't be allowed full access, not shouldn't be allowed at all.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,320
Again, another person not reading the post properly. I said shouldn't be allowed full access, not shouldn't be allowed at all.

Not allowing them at the times the majority of people want to travel is the same as not allowing them.
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Not allowing them at the times the majority of people want to travel is the same as not allowing them.
We both know that's not what I mean and should that happen, tough, shouldn't be stick in the muds over it. They should offer a level of service similar to that of what's there or deal with the consequences.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
I would not wish to meet such a vehicle when driving along Hollyhedge Road. It is not practical to fit longer/heavier vehicles on Metrolink, given the tight curves and street-running on various parts of the network.

The idea that bicycles should be accommodated on buses and trams is stupid - they are for the many, not the selfish few.
So you would not wish to meet a vehicle virtually identical in length to a pair of M5000s that currently run in multiple, just because it has bike spaces? The actual mass of rail vehicles is irrelevent, as the M5000s are actually heavier than some “heavy rail” vehicles.

If trains, trams and buses are for the “many” then why do you maintain that bicycles and animals should not be carried? You wouldn’t insist that a wheelchair user must not bring their wheelchair on board, because it takes up otherwise valuable standing capacity, or that a parent must not carry their child in a pram because they are not disadvantaged enough to deserve the space otherwise reserved for the disabled.

You can’t simply disallow wheelchair users, the deaf, the blind, black, Asian or ethnic minority people, Muslims or other religious groups, homosexuals, or any other such groups from entering your bus when they do not make up the majority of the population, so why would you instead choose to discriminate against cyclists and pet owners?
Again, if the alternative to conversion to Metrolink is run-down and eventual closure, then some things need to be sacrificed, such as bicycle-carrying capability.
The concept of Metrolink conversion was not even conceived until long after the realisation that the threat of run-down and eventual closure of heavily used (and often electrified) lines in areas of dense population was a stupid idea and what happened at Crossens for example was not to be repeated.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
This bicycle and dog issue is tiresome. It’s got nothing to do with improving rail connectivity in Greater Manchester, and I suspect our Southport friend is simply trolling.
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
This bicycle and dog issue is tiresome.
It could be solved if TfGM said they would allow for the conveyance of dogs and bikes on the lines they want to take over...
It’s got nothing to do with improving rail connectivity in Greater Manchester
I mean, it does. If I want to get from Manchester to Hadfield with a non folding bicycle or a dog, under the current Metrolink conditions of travel, I wouldn't be allowed to. Suddenly you would find I've lost that connectivity.
I suspect our Southport friend is simply trolling.
Are they though?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,391
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
This bicycle and dog issue is tiresome. It’s got nothing to do with improving rail connectivity in Greater Manchester, and I suspect our Southport friend is simply trolling.

It is not tiresome. If people are intended to be able to rely on public transport and get rid of cars, carriage of both is essential. Bikes realistically can't be carried in the peak, but off peak there is really no excuse.

It is also ludicrous that you can't sit and drink a coffee during your journey, though that I suspect is probably about as well observed as the mask rule.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,817
You can’t simply disallow wheelchair users, the deaf, the blind, black, Asian or ethnic minority people, Muslims or other religious groups, homosexuals, or any other such groups from entering your bus when they do not make up the majority of the population, so why would you instead choose to discriminate against cyclists and pet owners?

I’d have thought that cyclists and pet owners can choose to bring those items with them. If you are blind, or Asian, or gay, you don’t choose to leave that ‘characteristic’ at home.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
This bicycle and dog issue is tiresome. It’s got nothing to do with improving rail connectivity in Greater Manchester, and I suspect our Southport friend is simply trolling.
Do you have the statistics on what percentage of the population of Greater Manchester who could potentially use the Metrolink owns either a bike or a dog?

It seems to me like solving this underlying issue would be the definition of “improving rail services in Greater Manchester”. Please correct me if services on the Metrolink do not constitute “rail services in the Greater Manchester area” or if they would not be “improved” for passengers by providing provision for cyclists and dog owners.
It could be solved if TfGM said they would allow for the conveyance of dogs and bikes on the lines they want to take over...
The worst thing about it is that the only reason they aren’t allowed is that someone at TfGM doesn’t like them.
I mean, it does. If I want to get from Manchester to Hadfield with a non folding bicycle or a dog, under the current Metrolink conditions of travel, I wouldn't be allowed to. Suddenly you would find I've lost that connectivity.
And if it is solved for new lines that are converted, it could be solved for existing Metrolink services by suddenly allowing full size bikes and dogs, hence “improving rail services in Greater Manchester”.
Are they though?
I’m not.
It is not tiresome. If people are intended to be able to rely on public transport and get rid of cars, carriage of both is essential. Bikes realistically can't be carried in the peak, but off peak there is really no excuse.

It is also ludicrous that you can't sit and drink a coffee during your journey, though that I suspect is probably about as well observed as the mask rule.
I’d like to know how many animals were carried on the Metrolink’s precursor the Manchester Corporation Tramways.

Please tell me that there’s no condition of carriage that states a cup of coffee is not allowed to be carried. Is reading of newspapers even allowed?
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
It is also ludicrous that you can't sit and drink a coffee during your journey, though that I suspect is probably about as well observed as the mask rule.
I've ate and drunk on the tram many times before knowing it was a rule and by the time I use them again, I've forgotten it is a CoC. It is indeed not followed, I've eaten a pizza on a tram before.
It is not tiresome. If people are intended to be able to rely on public transport and get rid of cars, carriage of both is essential. Bikes realistically can't be carried in the peak, but off peak there is really no excuse.
The trains operating on the line allow bikes in peak and any Metrolink conversion should do as well. If the trains currently operating the line allow it, Metrolink should also be made to allow it.
I’d have thought that cyclists and pet owners can choose to bring those items with them. If you are blind, or Asian, or gay, you don’t choose to leave that ‘characteristic’ at home.
I think @507020 is trying to make a similar point to @Bletchleyite, just in a different way.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
So you would not wish to meet a vehicle virtually identical in length to a pair of M5000s that currently run in multiple, just because it has bike spaces?
A double formation of M5000s is 56m long. That is not "virtually identical in length" to the 65m vehicle your previous post advocated.

The post you quoted specifically referred to Hollyhedge Road. Metrolink does not normally use doubles on the Airport line, nor on the other lines that cross suburban main roads. Doubles are usually confined to the Altrincham, Bury, East Didsbury and Oldham/Rochdale lines, which are mainly on segregated alignments, with only limited street running in the town and city centres.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
A double formation of M5000s is 56m long. That is not "virtually identical in length" to the 65m vehicle your previous post advocated.

The post you quoted specifically referred to Hollyhedge Road. Metrolink does not normally use doubles on the Airport line, nor on the other lines that cross suburban main roads. Doubles are usually confined to the Altrincham, Bury, East Didsbury and Oldham/Rochdale lines, which are mainly on segregated alignments, with only limited street running in the town and city centres.
I quoted a ~65m vehicle as a rough estimate. If this allows ±10m error, then any vehicle or pair of vehicles 55-75m in length, including a double M5000 qualifies as a ~65m vehicle.

Given the age differential between the oldest and newest M5000s in the fleet, the older ones may well be replaced with longer vehicles a good 10 years or more before the latest batch, some of which are yet to enter service. That could allow the Wythenshawe/Airport line to remain as single M5000s for a time with the longer vehicles deployed on other lines.

As and when capacity requires however, longer vehicles will be required on all lines, whether the increase is from running in multiple, or from removing intermediate cabs and dedicating the space to passengers, dogs or bikes.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
I quoted a ~65m vehicle as a rough estimate. If this allows ±10m error, then any vehicle or pair of vehicles 55-75m in length, including a double M5000 qualifies as a ~65m vehicle.
AFAIK there is no legal limit on the length of a tram formation in GB. But 56m is pretty much the practical limit for running on street, because of the time taken to traverse road junctions. In Manchester it would not be possible to extend the platforms beyond 56m at many of the on-street stops, because they would obstruct side roads.
As and when capacity requires however, longer vehicles will be required on all lines, whether the increase is from running in multiple, or from removing intermediate cabs and dedicating the space to passengers, dogs or bikes.
Capacity on the Airport line can be doubled by running single trams at 10tph instead of 5tph. If demand on this line grows so much that this is insufficient, demand on the Altrincham line will have long since exceeded its maximum capacity of doubles at 10tph. The only practical solution to this would be a metro tunnel under the city centre, to eliminate on-street running. This would enable longer light rail trains to operate on the segregated lines.

However, it remains to be seen if/when commuting demand will grow to that extent post-pandemic, with continuation of hybrid WFH.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
Capacity on the Airport line can be doubled by running single trams at 10tph instead of 5tph. If demand on this line grows so much that this is insufficient, demand on the Altrincham line will have long since exceeded its maximum capacity of doubles at 10tph. The only practical solution to this would be a metro tunnel under the city centre, to eliminate on-street running. This would enable longer light rail trains to operate on the segregated lines.
I was thinking about this, but even at half length, 10tph would still have to traverse the road junctions. It then becomes a question of whether a longer vehicle less often would be less annoying for drivers. For drivers sat at a level crossing, longer trains less often would certainly be a lot better than an M5000 every 6 minutes.

The Picc-Vic tunnel is a very good idea to both increase terminal capacity at Piccadilly and Victoria and reduce street running, but surely it would be built as a proper metro tunnel and not a tramway tunnel, so trams could be eliminated entirely on the Bury, Altrincham and East Didsbury lines and replaced with more suitable metro trains, of neither light not heavy construction.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
Do you have the statistics on what percentage of the population of Greater Manchester who could potentially use the Metrolink owns either a bike or a dog?
No, I don’t not have those stats. What agency points to the population of a city that has a dog and/or a bike that needs to use public transport with their dog and/or bike? I have a dog; I’m not not taking him on the train. As for a bike, I don’t cycle but I would if I had the confidence of cycling on our roads. However, the fact that a bike is allowed on a jam packed train makes taking a bike on a train pointless.

In fact more pressing than bikes is an inadequate infrastructure set up for wheelchair users. People who cycle can use their legs. Try getting on a train with a wheelchair... no chance. At least metro link has completely accessible stations and trains, which our completely inadequate heavy rail network can’t do.

However, what would improve Manchester’s rail network isn’t solved by allowing bikes on the trams (how often do you use the tram?)

What would assist in solving the rail problems in Manchester is doing things like terminating Sheffield services at Piccadilly, rather than head off to Liverpool, building HS2, building NPR, expanding metrolink, etc etc.
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
building HS2, building NPR
But if you do both of these things, the frequencies and train lengths can be improved and you don't require conversion of lines to Metrolink. As I have said before, Metrolink should focus on street running and using disused alignments, bringing back my previous examples of up the Bury New Road and along the busway to Leigh. I do agree that improvements are needed but rushing in and Metrolinking everything without a care in the world isn't the answer.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
But if you do both of these things, the frequencies and train lengths can be improved and you don't require conversion of lines to Metrolink. As I have said before, Metrolink should focus on street running and using disused alignments, bringing back my previous examples of up the Bury New Road and along the busway to Leigh. I do agree that improvements are needed but rushing in and Metrolinking everything without a care in the world isn't the answer.

Well you do still need metrolink. It’ll evolve over time with a tunnel, to become a hybrid network of tram-trains and metro trains. It also creates more capacity for services on the WCML.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
I was thinking about this, but even at half length, 10tph would still have to traverse the road junctions. It then becomes a question of whether a longer vehicle less often would be less annoying for drivers. For drivers sat at a level crossing, longer trains less often would certainly be a lot better than an M5000 every 6 minutes.
Tramways are not comparable with heavy rail level crossings. Trams cross junctions in amongst the road traffic - the tram signals are controlled by the UTC traffic light controllers. So a 28m single tram does not delay the road traffic significantly. The issue is that a 56m double length formation occupies the junction too long, blocking turning traffic and causing congestion.

The Picc-Vic tunnel is a very good idea to both increase terminal capacity at Piccadilly and Victoria and reduce street running, but surely it would be built as a proper metro tunnel and not a tramway tunnel, so trams could be eliminated entirely on the Bury, Altrincham and East Didsbury lines and replaced with more suitable metro trains, of neither light not heavy construction.
The Altrincham and E Didsbury lines will not be converted back to "proper" heavy rail. The former alignment of the Altrincham line at Cornbrook Junction is now buried under the A56 Bridgewater Way, as is the former western end of the South Manchester line where it joined the CLC line at Throstle Nest Junction. Heavy rail vehicles, metro or otherwise, could not negotiate the steep gradients and tight curves of the replacement Metrolink flying junctions at Cornbrook and Trafford Bar.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
No, I don’t not have those stats. What agency points to the population of a city that has a dog and/or a bike that needs to use public transport with their dog and/or bike? I have a dog; I’m not not taking him on the train. As for a bike, I don’t cycle but I would if I had the confidence of cycling on our roads. However, the fact that a bike is allowed on a jam packed train makes taking a bike on a train pointless.

In fact more pressing than bikes is an inadequate infrastructure set up for wheelchair users. People who cycle can use their legs. Try getting on a train with a wheelchair... no chance. At least metro link has completely accessible stations and trains, which our completely inadequate heavy rail network can’t do.

However, what would improve Manchester’s rail network isn’t solved by allowing bikes on the trams (how often do you use the tram?)

What would assist in solving the rail problems in Manchester is doing things like terminating Sheffield services at Piccadilly, rather than head off to Liverpool, building HS2, building NPR, expanding metrolink, etc etc.
As a dog owner, why do you not feel comfortable taking him on the train? This kind of insight is needed by TfGM and others in making their vehicles more dog-friendly. As for cycling on our roads, it’s counter intuitive that you have to take a different route when cycling than when driving, to avoid cars.

The infrastructure for wheelchairs has been improved on Merseyrail largely due to Stadler’s innovation of sliding steps and the T&W Metro will follow for the same reason. I don’t understand why lifts were provided at Formby, which already had step free access to both platforms, before certain other stations that were not accessible at all, namely Hillside, but Merseyrail apparently accounts for 2% of all heavy rail platforms in Great Britain and with the promise that all of them will be step free by 2028, it’s looking good for accessibility in the north. To say that level boarding could not be provided on Crossrail and Thameslink in London were just outright lies.

Without knowing that rail services in Greater Manchester HAVE to be improved, due to Castlefield unreliability and capacity issues etc, providing additional facilities for passengers on rail services in Greater Manchester including resolving the Metrolink dog/bike issue still constitutes a considerable improvement for those passengers who choose to bring dogs and/or bikes on trams, which they may have a very legitimate reason to do. While it is clearly not as much of a priority as resolving Castlefield or building HS2/HS3, it could be solved overnight with so much as a rule change, not requiring any of the complex infrastructural work Castlefield, a high speed line, a tunnel or even any more Metrolink conversions will.
But if you do both of these things, the frequencies and train lengths can be improved and you don't require conversion of lines to Metrolink. As I have said before, Metrolink should focus on street running and using disused alignments, bringing back my previous examples of up the Bury New Road and along the busway to Leigh. I do agree that improvements are needed but rushing in and Metrolinking everything without a care in the world isn't the answer.
Blindly Metrolinking everything except the Leigh Guided Busway…

I went on the Leigh Guided Busway recently and I don’t understand why it’s so hilly when it’s supposed to be a disused rail alignment. Shouldn’t it be fairly level? Unfortunately I will never be able to cycle along the Leigh Guided Busway because I am unable to take my bike to Leigh.

If the Metrolink focuses on street running and bringing back disused alignments, there’s no need for it to run a downgraded service on former heavy rail lines is there. Those could easily run into a tunnel and resume proper service.
Well you do still need metrolink. It’ll evolve over time with a tunnel, to become a hybrid network of tram-trains and metro trains. It also creates more capacity for services on the WCML.
I’d like to see this evolution. What does the Metrolink do to the WCML?
Tramways are not comparable with heavy rail level crossings. Trams cross junctions in amongst the road traffic - the tram signals are controlled by the UTC traffic light controllers. So a 28m single tram does not delay the road traffic significantly. The issue is that a 56m double length formation occupies the junction too long, blocking turning traffic and causing congestion.
I doubt that a 56m tram every 12 minutes is the greatest source of congestion on the roads. Another one might be the sheer number of cars above what most road junctions were designed for, or the use of temporary traffic lights.
The Altrincham and E Didsbury lines will not be converted back to "proper" heavy rail. The former alignment of the Altrincham line at Cornbrook Junction is now buried under the A56 Bridgewater Way, as is the former western end of the South Manchester line where it joined the CLC line at Throstle Nest Junction. Heavy rail vehicles, metro or otherwise, could not negotiate the steep gradients and tight curves of the replacement Metrolink flying junctions at Cornbrook and Trafford Bar.
I bet something more reasonable could be done with them, involving reconfiguring the waste ground and car park adjacent to Talbot Road and the depot. The one at Cornbrook doesn’t look quite as sharp.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top