Alstom suing Eurostar over choosing Siemens

[LucaZone]

Anyone know anything about this? Saw mention of the High Courts setting a date of October 2011 for the case to proceed.

Regards

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought it got thrown out by the high court a few weeks ago?

 

[YesToHS2]

Yeah, I don't think the people in the court room even had time to site down. The judge threw it out there and then.

 

[LucaZone]

http://www.alstom.com/pr_transp_v2/...=/pr_transp_v2/2010/&idRubriqueCourante=28648

 

[YesToHS2]

Persistent, you've got to give them that.

 

[mumrar]

Persistent, you've got to give them that.

So, a company bids for a contract along with others, and when it doesn't win the contract, heads to the High Court to demand why. Typical French attitude I think, no doubt if Siemens do hold out to win, we can look forward to seeing their trains set on fire before they reach the tunnel.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The slight flaw with Alstom's cunning plan is that the very element they arew highlighting about the Siemens product - distributed traction - is also a feature of the AGV they want Eurostar to buy...

Any judge who doesn't spot that aspect of the case probably shouldn't be a judge...

 

[bangor-toad]

"So what?" would be my view.

I've previously run EU wide tenders that have been challenged. This is an unwelcome but far from unusual situation.

If Eurostar have complied with their own rules about the tender evaluation process then they have nothing to worry about. Alstom are requesting/demanding the usual type of documents to check through themselves.

I'd expect that Eurostar will eventally produce all of the documents and Altom's lawyers will after an expensive consultation advise them to discreetly give up and withdraw the case.
Business as usual for big EU tenders really

Cheers,
Jason

 

[asylumxl]

Talk about sore loosers!

 

[jamesontheroad]

Talk about sore loosers!

And talk about wealthy winners... whether it's divorce or commercial law, they're the only ones who always win.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought it got thrown out by the high court a few weeks ago?

It did. This will be the appeal to a higher court. When that fails they'll probably go to Europe.

I imagine the combined Eurostar company is glad they were set up subject to English law, as they could be doing this in a French Court, which would presuambly be just as fair and objective. Maybe...

 

[class156]

It sounds like Alstom have thrown all of their toys out of the pram and still expect to get their own way.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It sounds like Alstom have thrown all of their toys out of the pram and still expect to get their own way.

well thats exactly what it is! its ridiculous how long is this going to delay their introduction by?

 

[asylumxl]

Is it really any suprise that they'd not win the tender? They want to check the tender process was fair...

Do Alstom trains have a good track record in the UK? No.

Did the Alstom made 373 stand up well to the snow? No.

Do Siemens UK diesel variants randomly burst into flames? No.

It's pretty obvious why they lost if you ask me...

 

[TGV]

Did the Alstom made 373 stand up well to the snow? No.

I think you may be over simplifying that - although I see where you're going with it.

On the day the 373's failed, virtually all high speed passenger services in Northern Europe (yes, including Siemens equipment) had either ceased service or was running a dramatically reduced service. None of them had as harsh enviromental conditions to cope with as the 373's had (freezing cold/moist snow to warm humid tunnel in seconds). It's also worth noting how many domestic trains failed during that weather - but of course, that didn't make as good headlines.

It's true that work is being done to improve the 373's in such conditions, but if anything that'll make them MORE resilient to harsh weather than other rolling stock (not bring them up to the same level) - and bear in mind they already have more safety regulations to conform to than anything else (fire regs in particular).

 

[asylumxl]

It's true that work is being done to improve the 373's in such conditions, but if anything that'll make them MORE resilient to harsh weather than other rolling stock (not bring them up to the same level) - and bear in mind they already have more safety regulations to conform to than anything else (fire regs in particular).

But they shouldn't have needed the modifications in the first place in my opinion. Alstom should have been aware of the conditions they may be subjected to in the first place. Safety regulations don't mean anything if the train can stand up to all of them but not operate in properly cold weather.

 

[TGV]

But they shouldn't have needed the modifications in the first place in my opinion. Alstom should have been aware of the conditions they may be subjected to in the first place. Safety regulations don't mean anything if the train can stand up to all of them but not operate in properly cold weather.

I won't disagree with that - but my point is that I honestly don't think Siemens, Bombardier, or any other manufacturer would have fared any better under the circumstances.

 

[asylumxl]

I won't disagree with that - but my point is that I honestly don't think Siemens, Bombardier, or any other manufacturer would have fared any better under the circumstances.

A little extreme condition testing wouldn't go a miss.

 

[TGV]

That's already been done as the majority of the equipment is used on, or derived from TGV - also, there was extreme condition testing done.

Sometimes you can do everything right, but still get caught out - look at Rolls Royce and the recent A380

 

[Old Timer]

I dont know how true this is, but a guy out here who worked on the CTRL told us that the reason that the tunnel safety requirements are so stringent was simply a sop by the French-led CTSA to prevent anyone other than Alsthom operating rolling stock through the tunnel, therefore they would have a monopoly on stock build.

Knowing how the French work and having had the misfortune to work for a couple of French Companies, I have to say that does not surprise me and I would not rule that out.

I really must do some more digging.

 

[Crossforth]

This is an absolutely ludicrous case. If Alstom win, there is something wrong with the legal system. Will it delay the manufacturing process or will that go ahead? (I assume not?)

 

[EWS 58038]

That's already been done as the majority of the equipment is used on, or derived from TGV - also, there was extreme condition testing done.

Sometimes you can do everything right, but still get caught out - look at Rolls Royce and the recent A380

Don't forget that the TGV TMST sets were build to that crappy UK Gauge with all equipment packed closer to eachother than anyone wanted, reducing the possibility of a better cooling system in the trains engine room with dramatic results as seen last winter. It was all described perfectly by Captain Deltic last spring.

 

[starrymarkb]

Don't forget that the TGV TMST sets were build to that crappy UK Gauge with all equipment packed closer to eachother than anyone wanted, reducing the possibility of a better cooling system in the trains engine room with dramatic results as seen last winter. It was all described perfectly by Captain Deltic last spring.

IIRC several TGVs stopped with the same problems

 

[asylumxl]

This post is totally my personal opinion, but it seems to me like Alstom seem to skimp on the quality of their products in the British market. They've all had problems from new, many with problems still persisting and with no fixes in the works (e.g. 180s transmission etc).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

For the benefit of those who would like to read the Court's full judgement from 29th October, including a summary of the points raised by Alstom and the considerations of the 3 Judges', here's the link:- http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2010/2747.html

You'll see that Alstom were actually applying for an injunction against Eurostar and Siemens - placing a legal stop on their intended contract for Siemens to supply 10 new trains to Eurostar. (They were not seeking to sue Eurostar). They ran several lines of argument to show that the tendering process was fatally flawed and should be disregarded.
The Court refused to grant the injunction.

Alstom subsequently asked the European Commision to review the tendering process and to give a legal judgement that the process was flawed. On 11th November, the European Commission agreed to hear that argument (in October 2011) and ordered Eurostar to release some of the papers used in the tendering process - papers which they had declined to provide to the High Court during Alstom's request for an injunction. But in the meantime, there is no injunction in place which would prevent Siemens and Eurostar pursuing their contract.

There is more at stake here than the trains themselves; there is the sensitive issue of state-supported manufacturing (which in this case is France's Alstom and Germany's Siemens). This would be the first time that any subsiduary or affiliate of France's SNCF has ever placed an order for trains that hasn't been awarded to France's own manufacturer, Alstom. It threatens to become, to some extent, a feud between those two nations which the Commission has now formally extended to include the UK Government.

 

[Daimler]

This post is totally my personal opinion, but it seems to me like Alstom seem to skimp on the quality of their products in the British market. They've all had problems from new, many with problems still persisting and with no fixes in the works (e.g. 180s transmission etc).

Before we bash Alstom too much, let's remember that they build the Pendolinos, which are pretty reliable these days (though I hate the things).

It's not as though Bombardier's UK market products have been fault-free recently either...

 

[Burkitt]

This would be the first time that any subsiduary or affiliate of France's SNCF has ever placed an order for trains that hasn't been awarded to France's own manufacturer, Alstom.

That's not quite correct. It's the first high speed order not awarded to Alstom, and the SNCF train order I know of not to be manufactured in France, but several previous regional train orders have gone to Bombardier's French division.

Paul

 

[TGV]

Don't forget that the TGV TMST sets were build to that crappy UK Gauge with all equipment packed closer to eachother than anyone wanted, reducing the possibility of a better cooling system in the trains engine room with dramatic results as seen last winter. It was all described perfectly by Captain Deltic last spring.

Oh I haven't forgotten. I know that train better than anyone here. It's my job.

 

[asylumxl]

Oh I haven't forgotten. I know that train better than anyone here. It's my job.

Do you want a medal?

Velaro > TGV

 

[TGV]

Do you want a medal?

Velaro > TGV

Ha ha - not from what I've seen mate! But nice try at a wind-up...