Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Ken H]

That's now, not what will happen over the next few years or couple of decades.
It's like saying HS2 isn't much use, because there are currently no trains running on it.

Literally hundreds of public charging points are being installed every month.
As of today, 17th August, in the UK there are....

43,516 charging connectors, on...
25,315 charging devices, at
15,958 locations
That's a rise of 560 in the last 30 days.
The growth in the number of these is set to accelerate over the next few years.

There are less than 8,400 petrol filling station sites in the UK and the number continues to go down, year on year.
That's a much reduced figure from just under 20,000 filling stations in 1990 and over 40,000 in the 1960's.

Companies like BP and Shell have long seen the writing on the wall and over the last couple of years have been buying up or taking major stakes in electric charging companies.
e.g. BP Chargemaster.


w

So why has my local filling station just had a major revamp. New underground tanks, pumps, tarted up shop. And the one 6 miles up the road 2 years ago. Serious investment by the same company.

 

[Roast Veg]

So why has my local filling station just had a major revamp. New underground tanks, pumps, tarted up shop. And the one 6 miles up the road 2 years ago. Serious investment by the same company.

Gulf? I'm pretty sure they've been buying out a lot of petrol stations from other owners who didn't want to maintain them any more. They'll likely be the last ones once Shell and BP bow out.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Yes exactly, you've just proved my point. We're not ready yet.

Not quite getting the HS2 analogy sorry.

Yes, the current stats show that the average location only has around 3 charging connectors, but the point is that that will radically change as we move forward.

The analogy is you are citing the present day, or recent past situation, as if it is static and will apply in the future, which it clearly won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==

So why has my local filling station just had a major revamp. New underground tanks, pumps, tarted up shop. And the one 6 miles up the road 2 years ago. Serious investment by the same company.

There have been 3 major rebuilds of large filling stations near me, over the last 3 years. Complete demolition, tanks out, the lot.
Yes it is serious investment, but they need that if they're to maintain a viable operation for the next 10 years.
In that same few years, 2 local filling stations have closed down and the sites are now used car dealerships.

Incidentally, only one of those rebuilds has seen the installation of a couple of EV chargers. However at that site, they've left dedicated space for several more to be installed, as and when...

 

[Ken H]

Gulf? I'm pretty sure they've been buying out a lot of petrol stations from other owners who didn't want to maintain them any more. They'll likely be the last ones once Shell and BP bow out.

co-op

 

[XAM2175]

Without turning this into a political debate, how is increasing income tax sensible? It's a blunt instrument approach that will affect those less well off, who ironically are less likely to be able to afford an EV....

You apply the raise only to the higher bands, and perhaps add a few more intermediate bands so that nobody experiences a significant one-off increase.

Ultimately there are going to have to be questions asked about replacing the revenue currently brought in by Fuel Excise Duty and the like, but that really deserves its own topic.

 

[DustyBin]

You apply the raise only to the higher bands, and perhaps add a few more intermediate bands so that nobody experiences a significant one-off increase.

Ultimately there are going to have to be questions asked about replacing the revenue currently brought in by Fuel Excise Duty and the like, but that really deserves its own topic.

The problem I have with this (and I accept it's perhaps ideological) is that you effectively penalise success. We'll end up OT here so I'll leave it at that.

In regard to your second point which I actually think is relevant to the thread, I expect there will be some kind of tax on either electricity used for charging or mileage covered (or both). This seems to be the obvious solution.

 

[Ken H]

The problem I have with this (and I accept it's perhaps ideological) is that you effectively penalise success. We'll end up OT here so I'll leave it at that.

In regard to your second point which I actually think is relevant to the thread, I expect there will be some kind of tax on either electricity used for charging or mileage covered (or both). This seems to be the obvious solution.

road charging. How much to drive along here? - https://goo.gl/maps/zM6kaQXDKmpGZTEHA

 

[AM9]

You're mad if you think that! Cheap tax and parking is a carrot being dangled to get people into EV's, but as soon as they start to gain traction, prices will only go one way.

I didn't mention 'cheap tax or parking'.

Take a look at the prices of motorway service station fuel. I saw £1.49 a litre last week, around 20-25p a litre more than supermarket prices. Imagine how much it's going to cost to charge your car at a service station once demand goes up?

So charging costing 16% more than the equivalent away from the motorways is still much cheaper than hydrocarbon fuel per mile at service areas or high streets. What was your point then?

That's assuming you can charge it at all. I see lots of people saying a long distance journey in an EV is as simple as setting off earlier and allowing 30 minutes to recharge en route. How's that work when all the charging points are taken?

Maybe you should ask somebody who does just that.

An average petrol station has around 10-12 pumps, but if you look at charging hotshots (typically new shopping centres, service stations, drive through coffee shops) they only tend to have a handful of charging stations at best. Even allowing for some charging at home, it doesn't take much to work out that without serious investments in infrastructure or serious improvements in battery range, the UK is nowhere near ready for the mass uptake of EV's.

As has been said above, serious investment is taking place now, so it would be much better to make your comparisons between current numbers of EVs vs the curerent level of infrastructure (or alternatively the numbers of EVs in 9 years time vs the infrastructure that will be in place then. Your arguments might be credible then.

 

[XAM2175]

The problem I have with this (and I accept it's perhaps ideological) is that you effectively penalise success. We'll end up OT here so I'll leave it at that.

In regard to your second point which I actually think is relevant to the thread, I expect there will be some kind of tax on either electricity used for charging or mileage covered (or both). This seems to be the obvious solution.

Yes, it's not necessarily a good way of doing, but it avoids the hit to low-income earners.

Within the thread it is relevant to say that the consumer-side economics of EVs will change in the future as the various rebates and credits are rolled back and then presumably ended, and that EV buyers should probably expect that in the future they will be charged some form and/or combination of road usage levy or charging energy consumption duty, yes.

 

[AM9]

And, as petrol stations close down or convert to EV charging stations, ICE vehicles drivers will begin to suffer from range anxiety.

Which is why even the most arrogant polluting car driver will eventually submit to cleaner methods of propelling their vehicle along the road.

 

[DustyBin]

road charging. How much to drive along here? - https://goo.gl/maps/zM6kaQXDKmpGZTEHA

Some roads are worth paying to drive on (although generally not the existing toll roads!). I've never driven on that particular road but I do cut across from Carnforth to the North East via Aysgarth occasionally. Stunning!

 

[AM9]

You apply the raise only to the higher bands, and perhaps add a few more intermediate bands so that nobody experiences a significant one-off increase.

Ultimately there are going to have to be questions asked about replacing the revenue currently brought in by Fuel Excise Duty and the like, but that really deserves its own topic.

It's been discussed here several times before. Road charging would be the fairest and most effective way of making drivers of all cars pay to use the public highway. Those vehicles that create CO2, NOx and various other health damaging byproducts of burning hydrocarbons will additionallly continue to be liable for VED, - which after all is a pollution levy.

 

[Ken H]

It's been discussed here several times before. Road charging would be the fairest and most effective way of making drivers of all cars pay to use the public highway. Those vehicles that create CO2, NOx and various other health damaging byproducts of burning hydrocarbons will additionallly continue to be liable for VED, - which after all is a pollution levy.

Electric vehicles still pollute. Tyre wear etc. And will the electricity they are charged with be 100% green, or should they pay for using gas or coal generation? And I assume electric vehicles will still crash, so should make a contribution for emergency services.

 

[ash39]

I didn't mention 'cheap tax or parking'.


So charging costing 16% more than the equivalent away from the motorways is still much cheaper than hydrocarbon fuel per mile at service areas or high streets. What was your point then?


Maybe you should ask somebody who does just that.


As has been said above, serious investment is taking place now, so it would be much better to make your comparisons between current numbers of EVs vs the curerent level of infrastructure (or alternatively the numbers of EVs in 9 years time vs the infrastructure that will be in place then. Your arguments might be credible then.

They are credible arguments, as are yours. Doesn't mean either of us is right. Personally I think you're wrong.

Which is why even the most arrogant polluting car driver will eventually submit to cleaner methods of propelling their vehicle along the road.

Using electricity generated by burning biomass which has been shipped halfway across the world?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using electricity generated by burning biomass which has been shipped halfway across the world?

Still not at the point of use where it causes most harm.

 

[AM9]

In regard to your second point which I actually think is relevant to the thread, I expect there will be some kind of tax on either electricity used for charging or mileage covered (or both). This seems to be the obvious solution.

I doubt that electricity will be taxed depending on use (I think it currently attracts 5% VAT). With the current rate of investment in generation and distribution by mainly commercial interests, selectively taxing it would create complications that would result in zero gain. The other complication would be that it is practical to generate some electricity domestically, - taxing that would be almost impossible.

Electric vehicles still pollute. Tyre wear etc. And will the electricity they are charged with be 100% green, or should they pay for using gas or coal generation? And I assume electric vehicles will still crash, so should make a contribution for emergency services.

VED is a duty levelled based on the CO2 generated per Km. That is precisely zero on a pure EV.
Fuel duty is based on the use of hydrocarbons as a road vehicle fuel. That is precisely zero on a pure EV.
Tyre particulate pollution is covered by a charge on the disposal of tyres when changed. Common to all road vehicles.
Additional workload on emergency services etc. is currently paid for from general taxation (i.e. even pedestrians). EVs will be the same.
Whatever the residual percentage of electricity that creates CO2 when it is generated, if taxed anywhere will probably be via VAT, i.e. the 5% that is currently levied. Using electricity to tumble dry clothes for hours, or heat a patio still created CO2 so how would you propose to determine the taxable and non-taxable uses, given that a car at home can be charged from the same socket as a room heater.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt that electricity will be taxed depending on use (I think it currently attracts 5% VAT). With the current rate of investment in generation and distribution by mainly commercial interests, selectively taxing it would create complications that would result in zero gain. The other complication would be that it is practical to generate some electricity domestically, - taxing that would be almost impossible.

Road pricing is what will be used. There is no real doubt about that.

 

[Ken H]

I think EV's should pay road tax to pay for the maintenance of the road network. That is what the vehicle tax was for when it was brought in. On the basis that user pays. OK, give a discount for the fact that its an EV but they should still make a contribution. And some of that money could be used to help build the infrastructure to make them work better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think EV's should pay road tax to pay for the maintenance of the road network. That is what the vehicle tax was for when it was brought in. On the basis that user pays. OK, give a discount for the fact that its an EV but they should still make a contribution. And some of that money could be used to help build the infrastructure to make them work better.

Road pricing is the way in which this will happen. However to drive adoption it's not the case at the moment.

 

[seagull]

This "push to EV" I am sure reminds many of the similar "push to diesel" many years ago now. And look how that turned out.

The harmful effects of non-sustainable lithium mining and of the need for greater electricity production are currently being overlooked in this honeymoon period for EVs.

I think we're still a long way from environmentally-friendly transport.

 

[AM9]

This "push to EV" I am sure reminds many of the similar "push to diesel" many years ago now. And look how that turned out.

The harmful effects of non-sustainable lithium mining and of the need for greater electricity production are currently being overlooked in this honeymoon period for EVs.

I think we're still a long way from environmentally-friendly transport.

So how will you adress the future in terms of your transport?

 

[ash39]

So how will you adress the future in terms of your transport?

It's not really any of our business what anyone else choses to do. If you're going down that road are you also going to ask people how much meat & dairy they consume?

 

[AM9]

I think EV's should pay road tax to pay for the maintenance of the road network. That is what the vehicle tax was for when it was brought in. On the basis that user pays. OK, give a discount for the fact that its an EV but they should still make a contribution. And some of that money could be used to help build the infrastructure to make them work better.

Road have always been paid for from general taxation (most road building and some maintenance) and local government taxes (some building and most maintenance). That means that all citizens that pay any tax, (income, VAT etc) contribute equally to the cost of road provision whether they walk, ride, cycle or drive on them.
VED to use the correct term, introduced in 1937 is non-hypothecated general tax which in the last few years has been rated according to the vehicle's potential to cause pollution and with a more recent adjustment for high priced vehicles. It's predecessor vehicle tax was introduced as a 'Road Fund Licence' which was introduced in 1921 a fund to cover the cost of making roads suitable for motor vehicles, (as opposed to horses and carts). So that died 84 years ago and I doubt that there is any member of RUK forums that was driving when it was enacted. The myth of vehicle drivers exclusively paying for roads through VED has dragged on for decades and is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

It's not really any of our business what anyone else choses to do. If you're going down that road are you also going to ask people how much meat & dairy they consume?

For anybody voluntarily in this discussion about the future of vehicles on UK roads, it is perfectly reasonable to ask how somebody intends to travel in the future.

 

[Ken H]

Road have always been paid for from general taxation (most road building and some maintenance) and local government taxes (some building and most maintenance). That means that all citizens that pay any tax, (income, VAT etc) contribute equally to the cost of road provision whether they walk, ride, cycle or drive on them.
VED to use the correct term, introduced in 1937 is non-hypothecated general tax which in the last few years has been rated according to the vehicle's potential to cause pollution and with a more recent adjustment for high priced vehicles. It's predecessor vehicle tax was introduced as a 'Road Fund Licence' which was introduced in 1921 a fund to cover the cost of making roads suitable for motor vehicles, (as opposed to horses and carts). So that died 84 years ago and I doubt that there is any member of RUK forums that was driving when it was enacted. The myth of vehicle drivers exclusively paying for roads through VED has dragged on for decades and is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

For anybody voluntarily in this discussion about the future of vehicles on UK roads, it is perfectly reasonable to ask how somebody intends to travel in the future.

probably an ICE for the foreseeable future. I have an ICE car that keeps passing its test. the carbon used in its making has had a good innings seeing its a 2010 registration and had done 170,000 miles. Last car I had did 222,000 and the way it is now with WFH, I cant see me getting anywhere near that for some time.

 

[ash39]

I will be driving an ICE car until a manufacturer can produce a car that is engaging to drive, styled well and reasonably affordable.

 

[ashkeba]

* Please don't reply to this with typical RUK non-issues with this. The number of people who satisfy both of "own an EV" and "do not use a smartphone" is likely to be zero for the foreseeable future, if not forever as "refuseniks" get older and stop driving altogether.

Even without the "typical RUK non-issues", it is a barrier to EV adoption, that need to get a smartphone for the EV, or alternatively have a total messy mess of installing apps (and currently it looks like a different app for each filling station brand) on the smartphone of each driver in the household and keep them all up to date. Or you turn up to charging point without booking and pay the higher guest rate which also makes people suspicious about what else the apps are doing on the phones. Why do the charging station apps not run on the car touchscreen? It seems unlikely that you will want to use a car charging station without a car.

 

[Domh245]

Even without the "typical RUK non-issues", it is a barrier to EV adoption, that need to get a smartphone for the EV, or alternatively have a total messy mess of installing apps (and currently it looks like a different app for each filling station brand) on the smartphone of each driver in the household and keep them all up to date. Or you turn up to charging point without booking and pay the higher guest rate which also makes people suspicious about what else the apps are doing on the phones. Why do the charging station apps not run on the car touchscreen? It seems unlikely that you will want to use a car charging station without a car.

The need to have a smartphone isn't a barrier to adoption. The overlap between people who drive an EV and people who don't own a smartphone will be zero. The need to have multiple apps is a valid concern, though not a barrier in any practical sense - ideally this would be standardised to just an industry-standard app, or ideally just reasonable rate (per kwh) that can be preauthorised and charged correctly for the quantity the same way that pay-at-pump works

There are myriad reasons that you don't see apps for charging on the touchscreen of the cars. Off the top of my head: The lack of standardised app (as you point out), the (general) lack of internet access for cars which would cause issues for keeping up-to-date, the need for manufacturers to load the different apps for different countries onto each market of car sold, and I've no doubt many more reasons beside. It's one of those good ideas that falls down upon considering the practicalities

 

[telstarbox]

Not disputing your points but don't Teslas (maybe others) already have a 4G connection to the vehicle anyway?

 

[Domh245]

Not disputing your points but don't Teslas (maybe others) already have a 4G connection to the vehicle anyway?

A fair observation, and indeed quite a few car manufacturers are able to do software updates over-the-air rather than requiring a trip to the dealer, whilst others offer effectively just a mobile SIM that allows you to access the internet from the car. I couldn't say how widespread this is though, and this is again a bit of a premium feature that more basic vehicles (particularly those currently in production or existing!) won't have. It'd be surprising however if manufacturers agreed to burn through significant data updating multiple charging apps rather than just shifting it onto the customer.

 

[ashkeba]

The need to have a smartphone isn't a barrier to adoption. The overlap between people who drive an EV and people who don't own a smartphone will be zero. The need to have multiple apps is a valid concern, though not a barrier in any practical sense [...]

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not say that EV drivers will not own smartphones. I say that either you have to put the same multiple charging apps on the smartphone of each driver of each EV, or you have to get a cheap phone to keep with the EV just for the charging apps. Maybe you do not consider that a barrier but many already do not keep the system and all apps on their one phone up to date.

If the EV filling station operators can standardize and get it down to one app then that will be better, but why can't they go the whole hog and standardize on pay-at-station card payments like ICE filling stations without punishment like a 6p/kWh surcharge for non-app payments I've seen from one operator? What do that apps do that is worth 6p/kWh to the station operator? Bitcoin mining?