Denied boarding at St Pancras EMR

[JWK]

Could I check that my understanding is correct here?
I hold an annual zones 1-3 Travelcard on an Oyster. Making a journey to Bedford, I purchased a Hendon-Bedford return, to cover me from the last station in zone 3. My understanding is that if one of the tickets in a split is a season ticket, then there is no requirement for the train to stop at the splitting location.

Wanting to use a fast Bedford EMR service from ‘upstairs’ at St Pancras, I tried to use my Oyster to open the gates there, which it wouldn’t do (which didn’t hugely surprise me, tbh, given outside disruption, there aren’t any stops within the zones from those platforms). However, when I asked the barrier staff, showing them both the Travelcard and the Hendon-Bedford ticket, they refused to let me through and said I had to take the Thameslink as ‘they don’t stop at Hendon’. Tried to make the case that this didn’t matter with a season ticket, but to no avail. Meant I missed my planned EMR train and am now on a Thameslink that will get me in 25 mins later than planned, missing an appointment.

Is this worth a complaint to EMR, or have I misunderstood something?

 

[Sleepy]

A season combination with normal ticket is valid without stopping at changeover station, season loaded on oyster makes no difference. I would certainly complain to EMR.

 

[185]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

Page 13, Section 14.

(My bad, wobbly train cut pasted wrong bit lol)

No mention of TfL products excluded.

 

[swt_passenger]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

Page 13, Section 14.2


No mention of TfL products excluded.

That condition (you’ve actually quoted 13.2?) has nothing to do with the problem, it’s not a route issue, neither is it a TfL product issue. It’s purely about whether a train must call at the split point when combining tickets. And it doesn’t have to call…

 

[ainsworth74]

Condition 14.2 of the NRCoT (linked above) applies:

14.2. If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

I would complain to EMR at being denied boarding with a valid combination of tickets. I believe they do have previous form for being snippy about accepting tickets when they were in their EMT guise.

 

[JWK]

Thank you very much all - glad my understanding was correct! Have worked away the extended journey on Thameslink by writing a complaint to EMR.

 

[Watershed]

You should expect, as a minimum, 15 mins' worth of Delay Repay, as well as an assurance that gateline staff will be retrained/rebriefed to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

In future you might prefer to get your ticket issued from Boundary Zone 3 (which costs the same in this instance). This makes it difficult to claim you must take a train that stops at your splitting station - there being no eponymous station!

 

[JWK]

You should expect, as a minimum, 15 mins' worth of Delay Repay, as well as an assurance that gateline staff will be retrained/rebriefed to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

In future you might prefer to get your ticket issued from Boundary Zone 3 (which costs the same in this instance). This makes it difficult to claim you must take a train that stops at your splitting station - there being no eponymous station!

I much prefer to do exactly that re boundary tickets, but needed to buy the tickets online on this occasion, and haven’t found a way to get boundary tickets other than via a ticket office yet, hence the ticket from Hendon!

 

[Watershed]

I much prefer to do exactly that re boundary tickets, but needed to buy the tickets online on this occasion, and haven’t found a way to get boundary tickets other than via a ticket office yet, hence the ticket from Hendon!

Some ticket machines are capable of selling them, but yes it's far from ideal.

 

[Starmill]

I would certainly write a complaint and ask for some compensation as a result of being denied your service and delayed in your journey as a consequence.

Given this delay was entirely avoidable, quite unlike almost all others, I would be tempted to suggest that they should pay more compensation as a result. Perhaps around three quarters of the ticket price as a minimum, rounded up to the next whole pound.

 

[MikeWh]

Sadly the EMR gates don't accept Oyster at all. Only contactless for travelling to Luton Airport Parkway. When Thameslink use platforms 1-4 they direct Oyster users to validators at the side. You should still have been let through though.

 

[T-Karmel]

Some ticket machines are capable of selling them, but yes it's far from ideal.

Indeed. Depends on the machine you just need to try to type in diffrent words - London Boundary, Boundary or Zone. It should come up eventually.

 

[westcoaster]

I'm guessing with that combination of tickets EMR would not recieve a penny in revenue, could that be half the problem.

 

[Ianno87]

Condition 14.2 of the NRCoT (linked above) applies:



I would complain to EMR at being denied boarding with a valid combination of tickets. I believe they do have previous form for being snippy about accepting tickets when they were in their EMT guise.

I have had this very problem at St Pancras myself. Complaint to EMR and a full refund was received.

 

[JWK]

I'm guessing with that combination of tickets EMR would not recieve a penny in revenue, could that be half the problem.

They’d get something I’d have thought, as if used ‘properly’, a Hendon-Bedford ticket is unquestionably valid on EMR between the Luton stations and Bedford.

 

[Watershed]

I'm guessing with that combination of tickets EMR would not recieve a penny in revenue, could that be half the problem.

Even if that were the case (it's not), it still wouldn't allow them to deny boarding. Revenue distribution is an issue internal to the industry - it bears no relation to passenger rights.

 

[londonteacher]

Out of curiosity so does this mean with a travel card on an oyster you do not need to touch out. Surely you would be charged the additional fare on Oyster and then have to go online to change your journey details?

 

[Watershed]

Out of curiosity so does this mean with a travel card on an oyster you do not need to touch out. Surely you would be charged the additional fare on Oyster and then have to go online to change your journey details?

When holding a Travelcard on Oyster, and travelling entirely within the covered Zones, you only need to touch in or out as required to open barriers.

You won't be charged a maximum fare for not touching out, provided you touched in within the covered Zones, and vice versa. This is precisely to accommodate scenarios such as this, where you can't touch out because you travel non-stop beyond the covered Zones (in conjunction with another ticket).

 

[Sleepy]

So what would have happened at St P. gateline if op was doing that journey in reverse ? Do RPI's normally lurk there to catch "1 stop" fare evaders from Bedford etc that are too thick to notice stopping pattern before boarding ?

 

[Haywain]

So what would have happened at St P. gateline if op was doing that journey in reverse ? Do RPI's normally lurk there to catch "1 stop" fare evaders from Bedford etc that are too thick to notice stopping pattern before boarding ?

No, RPIs are not generally present. At worst, someone arriving from Bedford with such a combination of tickets might receive a penalty fare* but I think they would more likely be allowed through the barrier after some discussion.

*This is not mentioned with any intention of starting a discussion about legitimacy of such a penalty fare.

 

[KT550]

Back in May when the EMR HSTs were being retired, I took a trip from Bedford to St. Pancras using a similar ticketing arrangement.

I was able to purchase a boundary zone 6 to Bedford return ticket at the EMR ticket office at STP without difficulty (for use in conjunction with an out of boundary to zones 1-6 paper day travelcard).
There was no indication from the staff member that I could not use EMR trains.

I travelled out on Thameslink and back on EMR.
I don't recall any problems exiting on arrival at St. Pancras, though the z1-6 travelcard probably didn't open the barriers.
Maybe only departures from STP are given extra scrutiny by the gateline staff, rather than arrivals.

 

[185]

That condition (you’ve actually quoted 13.2?) has nothing to do with the problem, it’s not a route issue, neither is it a TfL product issue. It’s purely about whether a train must call at the split point when combining tickets. And it doesn’t have to call…

Very good. Was just checking

My bad. Wobbly train.

 

[swt_passenger]

Very good. Was just checking

My bad. Wobbly train.

I realised later you’d probably just accidentally copied an adjacent paragraph! We got there in the end…

 

[Hadders]

Your combination of tickets was perfectly valid and the gateline staff were incorrect. I would complain to EMR about this.

 

[yorkie]

I'm guessing with that combination of tickets EMR would not recieve a penny in revenue, could that be half the problem.

That may be their erroneous reasoning but it's not a valid excuse.

Out of curiosity so does this mean with a travel card on an oyster you do not need to touch out. Surely you would be charged the additional fare on Oyster and then have to go online to change your journey details?

As Roger Ford said around 16 years ago, "what matterrs is the message, not the medium"; there is no loss of rights when holding a Travelcard on an Oyster card, compared to holding a Travelcard on paper, and therefore no requirement* to tap in or out.

(* other than to operate barriers, where appropriate; or - not applicable here - when using a combination of Travelcard and PAYG)

 

[JWK]

Just to follow up on this, EMR have replied to me today, acknowledging that I should have been allowed through the barriers - no offer of compensation though…

Am likely to be making the trip to Bedford reasonably regularly in future, so I look forward to testing out the promised re-education of the St Pancras barrier staff.

“I’m sorry for the problems you experienced when travelling from London St Pancras recently.

I have checked with our retail systems manager and pricing implementations manager, and we can confirm your travel ticket is perfectly valid and you should have been able to travel as initially planned.

I will ensure this information is passed onto the gateline team to ensure this does not happen again.”

 

[Watershed]

That's not an acceptable answer. They need to be compensating you for their breach of contract.

 

[Merseysider]

That's not an acceptable answer. They need to be compensating you for their breach of contract.

I completely agree.

If @JWK was found with the wrong ticket by an RPI and simply stated “I’ll ensure this information is remembered to ensure this does not happen again” it wouldn’t wash and they’d be hit with a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

It’s not a level playing field.

 

[Kite159]

I completely agree.

If @JWK was found with the wrong ticket by an RPI and simply stated “I’ll ensure this information is remembered to ensure this does not happen again” it wouldn’t wash and they’d be hit with a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

It’s not a level playing field.

Agreed.

Error by rail staff = "oh sorry, we will 'retrain' to ensure it doesn't happen again"
Error by passenger = "See you in court for the 5p underpayment of your fare due to us not mentioning until it's too late that the train will skip the station you wanted and you tried exiting at the next stop"

 

[Wolfie]

That's not an acceptable answer. They need to be compensating you for their breach of contract.

Absolutely. Why should they walk away from their staff gross incompetence scot free?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2021 ==

Just to follow up on this, EMR have replied to me today, acknowledging that I should have been allowed through the barriers - no offer of compensation though…

Am likely to be making the trip to Bedford reasonably regularly in future, so I look forward to testing out the promised re-education of the St Pancras barrier staff.

“I’m sorry for the problems you experienced when travelling from London St Pancras recently.

I have checked with our retail systems manager and pricing implementations manager, and we can confirm your travel ticket is perfectly valid and you should have been able to travel as initially planned.

I will ensure this information is passed onto the gateline team to ensure this does not happen again.”

Go back and state explicitly that at the very least you expect delay repay for the delay they caused. Also tell them that your communication is de facto a letter before action and that a MCOL will follow should they decline.