Is electrifying the North Downs Line worth it?

[SouthEastBuses]

As you may know, the North Downs Line is one of the last 7 railway lines in the South East of England to still be unelectrified, and therefore, still run DMUs.

Electrification of the line would allow the removal of diesel trains and can remove the "diesel islands", therefore reducing pollution and having faster and efficient trains.

But is it worth it? Are there other lines that should be electrified first before the NDL?

Also, who agrees with me that the NDL should be third rail electrified (overhead would make no sense, the unelectrified sections start/end at stations electrified with third rail).

@JonathanH As this appears to be your local railway line, judging by a lot of your posts, I'd love to hear your opinion.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes it would be worth it and yes it should be third rail infill. A half hourly passenger service certainly justifies it IMO.

 

[zwk500]

Yes it should be electrified. Yes if done today it should be 3rd rail.

No, it isn't worth the money it would take until the 769s need replacement. A half-hourly service isn't enough to really justify electrification, although the 3tph intended would make it very close.

The Uckfield line should be done first, then Reading-Basingstoke, then Basingstoke-Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton. North Downs Line has to be done hand-in-hand with the Ash Vale-Wokingham line, which makes the calculations rahter more complex (especially because OLE is a viable option for Ash Vale-Wokingham, but would require converting Bracknell-Reading to OLE).

Of course, all of this won't happen unless the ORR/RSSB report in favour of new 3rd rail installations.

 

[Energy]

Yes it should be electrified. Yes if done today it should be 3rd rail.

No, it isn't worth the money

I'm confused, are you in favour or not?

A half-hourly service isn't enough to really justify electrification

Is it? Half hourly should be enough especially when its infill.

 

[JonathanH]

No, it isn't worth the money it would take until the 769s need replacement.

On the other hand, the introduction of 769s removes one of the barriers to electrification that has applied so far.

Ash Vale-Wokingham line, which makes the calculations rahter more complex (especially because OLE is a viable option for Ash Vale-Wokingham, but would require converting Bracknell-Reading to OLE).

Why would the transition on the Waterloo to Reading line need to be at Bracknell instead of Wokingham (or even Ascot)?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Yes it would be worth it and yes it should be third rail infill. A half hourly passenger service certainly justifies it IMO.

It definitely is worth it indeed! What I meant by the following:

But is it worth it? Are there other lines that should be electrified first before the NDL?

Is that whether there are other unelectrified lines (like the Uckfield or Marshlink line) that are more important (e.g. they carry more passengers and are busier) and should be electrified first before electrifying the NDL.

On the other hand, the introduction of 769s removes one of the barriers to electrification that has applied so far.

Indeed, this would allow removal of the diesel engines (as they would be useless by then) and converting them back to 319s!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2021 ==

Is it? Half hourly should be enough especially when its infill.

Of course, considering that this is one of the last 7 electrified lines in the South East! (the others being the Marshlink, Uckfield, Reading-Basingstoke, Romsey-Eastleigh, Southampton-Salisbury and Basingstoke-Salisbury lines)

 

[Grumbler]

Electrification of the line would allow the removal of diesel trains and can remove the "diesel islands", therefore reducing CO2 pollution and having faster and efficient trains.

Diesel fumes are polluting, but CO2 is not. CO2, H2O and sunlight are what green plants use to grow, and hence feed animals and ourselves. Indeed studies have shown that the increase in atmospheric CO2 over the last few decades has led to "global greening" - see https://www.thegwpf.org/matt-ridley-global-warming-versus-global-greening/

 

[yorksrob]

I tend to put the Marshlink and Uckfield routes in the same category.

Marshlink might have a slightly worse case due to being hourly rather than half hourly. On the other hand, the benefits of being able to run a four carriage electrostar through to Brighton could be considerable.

I have less experience of the Uckfield line, but I think that's only hourly or less.

Really all three need to be done on a rolling basis.

 

[Energy]

and converting them back to 319s!

How about they go to scrap instead...

 

[alf]

Agree with post 8 above.

Marshlink, Uckfield & North Downs all third railed on a rolling basis..& soon.

 

[zwk500]

I'm confused, are you in favour or not?

I'm in favour in principle, but it just doesn't justify the cost

Is it? Half hourly should be enough especially when its infill.

It's not infill though, because services that run over this line currently only run over 2 very short electrified sections at either end and a similarly short section in the middle.

On the other hand, the introduction of 769s removes one of the barriers to electrification that has applied so far.

769s make electrifying either half on it's own much more palatable. It doesn't remove any of the technical, cost or safety barriers currently obstructing 3rd rail (in general). But they do buy some time to work those problems out.

Why would the transition on the Waterloo to Reading line need to be at Bracknell instead of Wokingham (or even Ascot)?

I suppose it could be done anywhere near there. From a tactical point of view, doing the junction on only 1 system makes much more sense, as does having the changeover somewhere turning the train round if it doesn't make the change won't cause too many issues. Ascot and Wokingham would both have reactionary impacts on those points. From a technical standpoint, the best location would be as close as possible to the substation, which is just under a mile east of Wokingham Junction.

I tend to put the Marshlink and Uckfield routes in the same category.
Marshlink might have a slightly worse case due to being hourly rather than half hourly. On the other hand, the benefits of being able to run a four carriage electrostar through to Brighton could be considerable.
I have less experience of the Uckfield line, but I think that's only hourly or less.

Marshlink links only 1 settlement of real size that isn't otherwise served (Rye) and doesn't go to London. Uckfield struggles with only 10-Car Turbostars in the peak, functions as a major railhead to relieve the Tonbridge line and links Uckfield, Crowborough and Edenbridge to London. Uckfield is half-hourly in the peak and hourly off-peak, but is intended to move to half-hourly all day, although it's likely the infrastructure would need changing to permit this.

The North Downs line fulfills a different role to either of those. It provides a secondary link between 3 regional hubs to relieve pressure on London. It serves some large-ish towns along the way, but isn't the primary service for any of them.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Diesel fumes are polluting, but CO2 is not. CO2, H2O and sunlight are what green plants use to grow, and hence feed animals and ourselves. Indeed studies have shown that the increase in atmospheric CO2 over the last few decades has led to "global greening" - see https://www.thegwpf.org/matt-ridley-global-warming-versus-global-greening/

Just corrected. Interesting

How about they go to scrap instead...

They still have about 10-15 years left in their lives...

 

[PTR 444]

As you may know, the North Downs Line is one of the last 7 railway lines in the South East of England to still be unelectrified

Erm, more like 17:

• North Downs Line
• Marshlink Line
• Uckfield Line
• Basingstoke - Salisbury
• Redbridge - Salisbury
• Eastleigh - Romsey
• Reading - Basingstoke
• Henley branch
• Marlow branch
• Windsor branch
• Greenford branch
• Chiltern Main Line
• Didcot - Banbury
• Oxford - Bicester
• Princes Risborugh - Aylesbury
• Amersham - Aylesbury
• Bletchley - Bedford

All in the South East region.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes it should have electric trains. That’s doesn’t mean it needs electrification.

 

[JonathanH]

The thing is that electrification of the North Downs line isn't the thing that, of itself, would improve the service. Acceleration might be better but line speed is restricted to a prevailing 70mph and the signal headways really limit the service that can be offered.

Clearly electrification helps with the decarbonisation of the operation but it doesn't of itself remove diesel operation at Reading or dramatically improve the service.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Erm, more like 16:

• Marshlink Line
• Uckfield Line
• Basingstoke - Salisbury
• Redbridge - Salisbury
• Eastleigh - Romsey
• Reading - Basingstoke
• Henley branch
• Marlow branch
• Windsor branch
• Greenford branch
• Chiltern Main Line
• Didcot - Banbury
• Oxford - Bicester
• Princes Risborugh - Aylesbury
• Amersham - Aylesbury
• Bletchley - Bedford

All in the South East region.

I know that is the case officially, but I don't really consider Oxfordshire, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire as part of the South East - they are more like Central England to me lol

The thing is that electrification of the North Downs line isn't the thing that, of itself, would improve the service. Acceleration might be better but line speed is restricted to a prevailing 70mph and the signal headways really limit the service that can be offered.

Clearly electrification helps with the decarbonisation of the operation but it doesn't of itself remove diesel operation at Reading or dramatically improve the service.

On the other hand, it does remove diesel operation at Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick Airport...

 

[Energy]

They still have about 10-15 years left in their lives...

Do they? So far the 319s have been pretty unreliable at Northern.

 

[JonathanH]

On the other hand, it does remove diesel operation at Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick Airport...

769s already potentially remove diesel operation at those locations. I was thinking more about the issue of fuelling points.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

769s already potentially remove diesel operation at those locations. I was thinking more about the issue of fuelling points.

Oh ok, I get what you mean now. Yes, that is a true point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2021 ==

Do they? So far the 319s have been pretty unreliable at Northern.

First entered in 1987, I think they could last until the early 2030s.

 

[Energy]

First entered in 1987, I think they could last until the early 2030s

The year a unit enters can give a rough idea but some units last a lot longer than others, I don't think the 319s can work that long.

 

[Aictos]

Yes it should be electrified. Yes if done today it should be 3rd rail.

No, it isn't worth the money it would take until the 769s need replacement. A half-hourly service isn't enough to really justify electrification, although the 3tph intended would make it very close.

The Uckfield line should be done first, then Reading-Basingstoke, then Basingstoke-Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton. North Downs Line has to be done hand-in-hand with the Ash Vale-Wokingham line, which makes the calculations rahter more complex (especially because OLE is a viable option for Ash Vale-Wokingham, but would require converting Bracknell-Reading to OLE).

Of course, all of this won't happen unless the ORR/RSSB report in favour of new 3rd rail installations.

Why should Reading to Basingstoke and Basingstoke to Salisbury via Romsey and Southampton take priority over the North Downs?

 

[Tio Terry]

With the changes in technology, hybrid, battery and hydrogen power, I really don't see any possibility of any serious extension of third rail electrification anywhere. I'm pretty sure it's not within the DfT's long term plans.

I wouldn't want to try to write the safety argument for it against all the other possibilities!

 

[Turtle]

Yes it would be worth it and yes it should be third rail infill. A half hourly passenger service certainly justifies it IMO.

Agreed. It should be possible to take an electric train from Redhill to Reading via Guildford.

 

[nw1]

The Guildford-Reigate bit yes, as it would allow one Reigate per hour to start back at Guildford, taking over the local stopping service on this section, which would allow such journeys as Guildford-Croydon and also, if it ran fast from Redhill-East Croydon it could also perhaps offer a faster Dorking-London service, the existing services all being rather slow, either due to lots of stops (Waterloo) or following slow routes (Victoria).

Wokingham-Ash depends on whether there is full elimination of diesel working from Reading. If yes, then yes. If the Marlow, Henley and Reading-Basingstoke routes remain diesel, perhaps it's not worth it.

 

[zwk500]

Why should Reading to Basingstoke and Basingstoke to Salisbury via Romsey and Southampton take priority over the North Downs?

Reading to Basingstoke: because it's a route with very strong growth, it enable better acceleration on the congested reading West corridor, and it would give opportunity for class 92s to haul freight between Didcot and Southampton (although that would need a lot of work).
Basingstoke to Southampton via Salisbury and Romsey: because it would remove diesel operation from the Romsey circulars, with a massive gain for acceleration on these all stations. It would also permit diversions in the event of Winchester being unavailable. It would also have advantages for decarbonising the Waterloo to Exeter services.
North downs doesn't have any benefit to freight, doesnt have any lines where the acceleration could be taken advantage of and doesn't give much strategic or operational benefit.

 

[cle]

It seems like the line needs the overall vision to fully refurb it. Signalling, line speeds, platform lengths (where viable, sunsetting where not) - and a more strategic purpose.

2tph currently, plus the third mentioned (even if only Reading-Guildford/Shalford) + the 12 car Reigate/TL project which might need power investment - all add to the cause.

 

[JonathanH]

the 12 car Reigate/TL project which might need power investment

That is surely well off the agenda now given it wasn't funded before March 2020.

It seems like the line needs the overall vision to fully refurb it. Signalling, line speeds, platform lengths (where viable, sunsetting where not) - and a more strategic purpose.

Yes, it would. Electrification, while desirable from an environmental perspective, does nothing for the service.

In passing, I note that I got to work in Reigate from Reading on 2 February 2009 when no electric trains could run on the rest of the local network due to snow (although more recently diesel trains have been cancelled as well as third rail electrics on snow days).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Diesel fumes are polluting, but CO2 is not. CO2, H2O and sunlight are what green plants use to grow, and hence feed animals and ourselves. Indeed studies have shown that the increase in atmospheric CO2 over the last few decades has led to "global greening" - see https://www.thegwpf.org/matt-ridley-global-warming-versus-global-greening/

Almost anyone who didn't sleep through their science lessons at school would assume this website is some sort of joke... And, given the current state of our ecosystem, a rather sick one.

 

[adrock1976]

It definitely is worth it indeed! What I meant by the following:



Is that whether there are other unelectrified lines (like the Uckfield or Marshlink line) that are more important (e.g. they carry more passengers and are busier) and should be electrified first before electrifying the NDL.



Indeed, this would allow removal of the diesel engines (as they would be useless by then) and converting them back to 319s!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2021 ==



Of course, considering that this is one of the last 7 electrified lines in the South East! (the others being the Marshlink, Uckfield, Reading-Basingstoke, Romsey-Eastleigh, Southampton-Salisbury and Basingstoke-Salisbury lines)

I am seeking clarification here:

By "South East", do you mean the routes south of the Thames (former BR Southern Region), the former BR sector Network SouthEast, or the former European Parliament South East Region constituency?

Reading - Basingstoke was part of the former Great Western Railway, which would make this 6 rather than 7 unelectrified lines hence how I am asking.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I am seeking clarification here:

By "South East", do you mean the routes south of the Thames (former BR Southern Region), the former BR sector Network SouthEast, or the former European Parliament South East Region constituency?

Reading - Basingstoke was part of the former Great Western Railway, which would make this 6 rather than 7 unelectrified lines hence how I am asking.

The BR Southern region where electrification is done at third rail (with the exception of HS1) instead of the usual 25 kV overhead system.