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A new survey which suggests that a third of British adults are prepared to risk their lives to retrieve an everyday object such as a mobile phone or a bunch of keys from the track has been described by Network Rail as 'shocking'. From "Rail News" 12th July 2021. https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2021/07/12-network-rail-condemns-shocking-survey.html
Does the report's findings reflect the experience of rail staff on this Forum? I've not read the report.
Generally yes. People will quite happily jump down to grab their belongings. I even had a party of drunks who I called the police on and refused travel push one of their friends off the platform as "a joke" some years ago. He landed in a pile of faeces and broke his ankle and still insisted on treating it as a joke.
Some people are just asking to be deselected from the gene pool.
And yes I know "people do it all over the world" but our high platforms are fairly unusual and in some places the cant brings the edging up to my chin if I was to stand on the track.
The worst one I remember is being at Derby one night waiting to work to Matlock and hearing a person had been hit by a train at Belper. It was a young lad being chased by the police who jumped down to try and get away, ran over to the up side and found it impossible to pull himself up before the fast train arrived.
I also don’t think NWR do themselves any favours in mitigating against this though. For example, not allowing a block when it’s feasible to do so, so staff can retrieve items from the track. Saying to someone that they will have to get their phone tomorrow because staff can’t get down on the track to retrieve it before the end of service is frankly asking for trouble.
I also don’t think NWR do themselves any favours in mitigating against this though. For example, not allowing a block when it’s feasible to do so, so staff can retrieve items from the track. Saying to someone that they will have to get their phone tomorrow because staff can’t get down on the track to retrieve it before the end of service is frankly asking for trouble.
Dropping something isn't stupidity. It happens all the time. If I drop my train keys or ticket machine the train won't leave until I've retrieved them one way or another.
Blocking a busy platform is one thing but it has become a total circus to get things back anywhere. Can't even use grabbers in many places now in case you topple over the edge.
If it is known that passengers will attempt to retrieve items, why should staff introduce a risk of trespass by not enabling the items to be retrieved in a safe manner?
If there’s line a block, the risk is minimal, often not even requiring staff to go on to the track (they may be able to use grabbers or something instead). Far less so than if a member of the public choses to jump down themselves.
Couldn't agree more with the above sentiments. As an industry, especially at large stations, we introduce risk by being so strict about getting down on the tracks. Many staff are PTS trained, and in many cases the presence of a train provides protection, as the vast majority of items are dropped between train and platform edge, so the risk is effectively none.
I also dislike NRs rhetoric and this attitude that anyone who goes near tracks is automatically an idiot etc. Lay people are capable of performing a risk assessment and coming to their own judgement about how capable they are of retrieving an item quickly. In my personal experience, staff, far more frequently than customers, make poor decisions about risk and put themselves in danger, usually in aid of getting a flyer.
I'm absolutely not encouraging such behaviour, I just think we need a more grown up approach to this, than just to label any trespasser some foolish clown with a death wish - because in the vast majority of cases, this isn't the outcome.
I also don’t think NWR do themselves any favours in mitigating against this though. For example, not allowing a block when it’s feasible to do so, so staff can retrieve items from the track. Saying to someone that they will have to get their phone tomorrow because staff can’t get down on the track to retrieve it before the end of service is frankly asking for trouble.
I also dislike NRs rhetoric and this attitude that anyone who goes near tracks is automatically an idiot etc. Lay people are capable of performing a risk assessment and coming to their own judgement about how capable they are of retrieving an item quickly.
For the record, I have never dropped anything on the tracks nor tried to cross them. That said - there are circumstances where doing so would have been very safe. Telling people who know there is almost certainly no danger that railway tracks are somehow inherently dangerous makes all the warnings look excessively twitchy, and that really is a problem. If you are too unrealistic about what is dangerous, people will learn to tune out your warnings, which is the last thing the railway needs.
A very clever colleague (Phd etc) once dropped his suit bag between the train and the platform at Swindon. Had to wait for a block and missed his flight.
This morning I saw someone drop their phone on a platform of the Brussels metro, although it didn't fall onto the tracks. Holding their phone in one hand, a large coffee in the other and trying to pull a suitcase can't have helped.
For the record, I have never dropped anything on the tracks nor tried to cross them. That said - there are circumstances where doing so would have been very safe. Telling people who know there is almost certainly no danger that railway tracks are somehow inherently dangerous makes all the warnings look excessively twitchy, and that really is a problem. If you are too unrealistic about what is dangerous, people will learn to tune out your warnings, which is the last thing the railway needs.
The issue is that for every sensible person who assesses the risk and can make a sensible decision to go onto the tracks there's another person who'll look at them and assume it's safe to go whenever.
I agree though that staff not getting items back in a timely manner because of negligible risk is likely to lead to frustrated passengers taking the matter into their own hands, which is a far more dangerous situation. Doesn't the Underground have a procedure where drivers are flagged down at the entrance to station platforms then draw forward to act as protection for the staff member retrieving the item?
What is an "all PED solution"? Sorry but many of these acronyms are not understood by non-railway staff, even by those have an extensive knowledge of railways!
What is an "all PED solution"? Sorry but many of these acronyms are not understood by non-railway staff, even by those have an extensive knowledge of railways!
I agree though that staff not getting items back in a timely manner because of negligible risk is likely to lead to frustrated passengers taking the matter into their own hands, which is a far more dangerous situation. Doesn't the Underground have a procedure where drivers are flagged down at the entrance to station platforms then draw forward to act as protection for the staff member retrieving the item?
Seems like a reasonable approach, but possibly even that is excessive on the mainline - provided the dropped item isn't in the 4ft (between the rails), it'd make perfect sense simply for the driver to place the brake in emergency and come onto the platform, whilst another member of staff uses a litter picker to retrieve the item (unsuitable on the LU however due to platform clearance).
Added protection could be provided by placing a "not to be moved" board on the unit, but a clear understanding seems to be perfectly sufficient if all parties concerned are aware.
Well that won't come cheap and we might as well give up railways altogether. I'd certainly never jump off a platform but if I'm at the lineside out in the "sticks" with my camera and there's a small amount vegetation in my viewfinder, I might go the wrong side of the fence for a few seconds to do some "gardening", having first checked Real Time Trains on my phone to make sure nothing is coming in either direction. Of course I know I'm not supposed to and wouldn't advise anyone else to do it!
A few years ago at Liverpool South Parkway I saw one of those large ballast bags blow onto the track between platforms. A Liverpool-bound class 350 approached and its driver stopped short of the bag and got out. He didn't attempt to retrieve the bag but went and made a phone call. He then returned and drove over the bag, presumably having satisfied himself it was safe to do so.
Seems like a reasonable approach, but possibly even that is excessive on the mainline - provided the dropped item isn't in the 4ft (between the rails), it'd make perfect sense simply for the driver to place the brake in emergency and come onto the platform, whilst another member of staff uses a litter picker to retrieve the item (unsuitable on the LU however due to platform clearance).
Added protection could be provided by placing a "not to be moved" board on the unit, but a clear understanding seems to be perfectly sufficient if all parties concerned are aware.
I think a clear understanding and the driver's key would be enough, tbh. The difficulty would be at less busy stations where the signaller may be busy dealing with something else, and so the driver couldn't be cautioned about stopping short on arrival. (e.g. Northampton Signaller is dealing with Shunting and coupling at King's Heath depot or arranging the slot with Daventry so Long Buckby can't get through)
Well that won't come cheap and we might as well give up railways altogether. I'd certainly never jump off a platform but if I'm at the lineside out in the "sticks" with my camera and there's a small amount vegetation in my viewfinder, I might go the wrong side of the fence for a few seconds to do some "gardening", having first checked Real Time Trains on my phone to make sure nothing is coming in either direction. Of course I know I'm not supposed to and wouldn't advise anyone else to do it!
That is slightly different and very definitely should not happen. If your view is obscured for a camera find another position rather than trespassing, especially for maintenance. You may well know what you're doing, but others who don't may see your example and think it's safe to trespass any time. Likewise, no passenger should ever retrieve their own property, the question is how can staff safely retrieve it for them in a timely manner?
The issue is that for every sensible person who assesses the risk and can make a sensible decision to go onto the tracks there's another person who'll look at them and assume it's safe to go whenever.
I agree though that staff not getting items back in a timely manner because of negligible risk is likely to lead to frustrated passengers taking the matter into their own hands, which is a far more dangerous situation. Doesn't the Underground have a procedure where drivers are flagged down at the entrance to station platforms then draw forward to act as protection for the staff member retrieving the item?
I'd certainly never jump off a platform but if I'm at the lineside out in the "sticks" with my camera and there's a small amount vegetation in my viewfinder, I might go the wrong side of the fence for a few seconds to do some "gardening", having first checked Real Time Trains on my phone to make sure nothing is coming in either direction. Of course I know I'm not supposed to and wouldn't advise anyone else to do it!
That is slightly different and very definitely should not happen. If your view is obscured for a camera find another position rather than trespassing, especially for maintenance. You may well know what you're doing, but others who don't may see your example and think it's safe to trespass any time. Likewise, no passenger should ever retrieve their own property, the question is how can staff safely retrieve it for them in a timely manner?
Would also urge caution against this. Realtime trains is very unreliable when considering the risk being taken (I use it daily so I see the plethora of errors), especially considering ECS moves/freight.
None the less, I totally see why you'd consider this "safe", and your risk assessment, clearly, has worked for you so far, as you're not injured or dead! This perfectly summarises, in my eyes, why this is a complex safety message and why, sometimes, the risk isn't actually all that big. The trouble is then how you effectively communicate this and ensure compliance.
If the traffic through the station allows, without causing delay to services, it’s generally feasible, is it not? I appreciate it may not be easy at very busy location, but one has to weigh up the disruption caused by blocking a line for 30 sections, vice having someone trespass on railway and cause many more delay minutes at the very least.
If the traffic through the station allows, without causing delay to services, it’s generally feasible, is it not? I appreciate it may not be easy at very busy location, but one has to weigh up the disruption caused by blocking a line for 30 sections, vice having someone trespass on railway and cause many more delay minutes at the very least.
It depends what else the signallers looking after, and how close the other trains are, in order for them to safely block the line. Not all signals can be replaced to red by the signaller.
It depends what else the signallers looking after, and how close the other trains are, in order for them to safely block the line. Not all signals can be replaced to red by the signaller.
I know, don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that it’s always straightforward, but there’s “usually” ways around it to minimise disruption and get a result that isn’t going to risk people taking it upon themselves to jump off the platform to retrieve their own items.
It’s similar to getting an emergency switch off. In my experience this is more difficult to get authorised than it probably should be. If a family pet strolls on to the line for example in a third rail area, it’s not an immediate danger to trains etc, but the owners wouldn’t think twice about attempting to rescue their pets, which could be jumping all over the place. Then you’ve suddenly got another incident and possible fatalities. I fully appreciate the result and cost involved, just it does seem like there’s too much red tape where safety matters are concerned sometimes.
It all depends on the circumstances, and one size certainly doesn’t fit all, and it’s certainly not all black and white.
None the less, I totally see why you'd consider this "safe", and your risk assessment, clearly, has worked for you so far, as you're not injured or dead! This perfectly summarises, in my eyes, why this is a complex safety message and why, sometimes, the risk isn't actually all that big. The trouble is then how you effectively communicate this and ensure compliance.
I knew a woman who lived next to a rural train line. She, and apparently most other locals, had the timetable memorised. Apparently, a farmer had cultivated a habit of using the railway as a shortcut on foot between two level crossings as the rail bridge crossed the river in a more convenient place than the road.
Hopefully, it should be obvious to everyone that this was an incredibly bad idea.
But that kind of behaviour is, I would contend, encouraged by unrealistic safety warnings that plainly exaggerate. If someone knows the risk is not as major as is being portrayed, they might assume the risk is nil. The solution to this is realistic safety messaging that conveys the actual risk, rather than the current approach; implying that anyone who so much as puts a toe on the ballast will spontaneously combust.
It depends on context. Getting down on the track at somewhere like Clapham Junction would be stupid at any time. However if you are at an unstaffed station on a brach line having dropped your keys on the track after the last train has just left for the day the risk would be negligible.
If Network Rail doesn't want anyone ever to get on the tracks they need to staff all stations 24/7
It depends on context. Getting down on the track at somewhere like Clapham Junction would be stupid at any time. However if you are at an unstaffed station on a brach line having dropped your keys on the track after the last train has just left for the day the risk would be negligible.
If Network Rail doesn't want anyone ever to get on the tracks they need to staff all stations 24/7
Unfortunately it’s often people assuming that the last train has left, not taking in to account other movements, which gets them killed.
It’s not possible to staff every single station all of the time, but the fact the UK railway is fenced off at other places, Generally does enough to mitigate against trespass. You’re not going to prevent it all the time no matter how hard you try.
Couldn't agree more with the above sentiments. As an industry, especially at large stations, we introduce risk by being so strict about getting down on the tracks. Many staff are PTS trained, and in many cases the presence of a train provides protection, as the vast majority of items are dropped between train and platform edge, so the risk is effectively none.
I also dislike NRs rhetoric and this attitude that anyone who goes near tracks is automatically an idiot etc. Lay people are capable of performing a risk assessment and coming to their own judgement about how capable they are of retrieving an item quickly. In my personal experience, staff, far more frequently than customers, make poor decisions about risk and put themselves in danger, usually in aid of getting a flyer.
I'm absolutely not encouraging such behaviour, I just think we need a more grown up approach to this, than just to label any trespasser some foolish clown with a death wish - because in the vast majority of cases, this isn't the outcome.
I think the approach to trackside safety often edges upon po-facedness from TOCs and NR.
Yes, people should stay off the track, and yes, people who trespass are stupid, but the relentless MAXIMUM VOLUME CONDEMNATION which applies to both:
- taking a single photograph on a single-track, rural, lightly used level crossing with good visibility, and
- literally driving a car up the track evading the police
Means the message is often lost.
If I dropped my car keys on a foot crossing I'd spend ten seconds bending down to pick them up. So would just about everyone else.
I spent a year in Network Rail being told to hold the handrail on the steps in a clerical office - and having "challenging a senior person on a safety behaviour" on my PDP objectives as part of some wider initiative to get zero-hours contractors more embedded in a responsible safety culture. It entirely missed the point.
The way you deal with egregiously unsafe behaviour rather than liminally unsafe behaviour is to make an example of the most egregious offenders. People cannot care about everything at once.
Network Rail should consider tweaking their message.
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The solution to this is realistic safety messaging that conveys the actual risk, rather than the current approach; implying that anyone who so much as puts a toe on the ballast will spontaneously combust.
However if you are at an unstaffed station on a brach line having dropped your keys on the track after the last train has just left for the day the risk would be negligible.
Some years ago, on my local line, a guy leaving a Christmas party decided to walk home along the line as he had missed the last train. He was struck and killed by a Tamper.
NR cannot possibly tell the public that sometimes it is safe to go onto the line, and sometimes it's not, but I agree that the process of getting a blockage to retrieve items could be simpler, and quicker.
strange really, as that fact applies to virtually every single interaction we have with the outside world. Maybe if more emphasis was put on realising that ( and that if you’re not prepared to be legally, morally and financially responsible for your actions you’d better stay at home)…
