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Proposed Heathrow Western Access/Heathrow Southern Railway service pattern

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AlastairFraser

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Following on from the Heathrow Western Access comes to a standstill thread, what would your preferred service pattern be through Heathrow stations if both or one of Heathrow Western Access/Heathrow Southern Railway schemes were built?
AlastairFraser :)
 
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The Ham

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Following on from the Heathrow Western Access comes to a standstill thread, what would your preferred service pattern be through Heathrow stations if both or one of Heathrow Western Access/Heathrow Southern Railway schemes were built?
AlastairFraser :)

Southern takes over the Heathrow express paths (with an Old Oak Common stop added) runs them to Basingstoke/Guildford.

On the Basingstoke leg replaces 1 of the two Basingstoke Stoppers (so as to provide +1tph) to Brookwood, Farnborough, Fleet, Winchfield and Hook. With the released former Basingstoke Stopper path being able to be used to provide services to somewhere else.

Those from Basingstoke would have a slower direct service to Heathrow than the maximum possible, however still massively faster than currently and with the potential to use faster services to Woking and change for a more frequent service.

I'd then be tempted to run Reading to Heathrow and then onto Waterloo to match the Western and Southern services together. As it would give more places direct to Reading. It would also be interesting to see if it would reduce journey times between Reading and Waterloo compared with the current (via Wokingham) services.
 

Alex365Dash

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I'd then be tempted to run Reading to Heathrow and then onto Waterloo to match the Western and Southern services together. As it would give more places direct to Reading.
What additional destinations would be served directly by this service from Reading that aren’t already served by either of the current SWR and TfL Rail services out of Reading? (Other than, of course, Heathrow.)
 

AlastairFraser

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Southern takes over the Heathrow express paths (with an Old Oak Common stop added) runs them to Basingstoke/Guildford.

On the Basingstoke leg replaces 1 of the two Basingstoke Stoppers (so as to provide +1tph) to Brookwood, Farnborough, Fleet, Winchfield and Hook. With the released former Basingstoke Stopper path being able to be used to provide services to somewhere else.

Those from Basingstoke would have a slower direct service to Heathrow than the maximum possible, however still massively faster than currently and with the potential to use faster services to Woking and change for a more frequent service.

I'd then be tempted to run Reading to Heathrow and then onto Waterloo to match the Western and Southern services together. As it would give more places direct to Reading. It would also be interesting to see if it would reduce journey times between Reading and Waterloo compared with the current (via Wokingham) services.
Nice idea for the services going south, but how would you run Reading to Waterloo via the Western Approach, without a reversal at T5?
 

The Ham

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What additional destinations would be served directly by this service from Reading that aren’t already served by either of the current SWR and TfL Rail services out of Reading? (Other than, of course, Heathrow.)

Hounslow and Brentford are listed as being served, which aren't currently served by the Reading/Waterloo trains.

Not a big difference overall but each direct service does add benefits (as long as it doesn't result in trying to fit too many services in).

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Nice idea for the services going south, but how would you run Reading to Waterloo via the Western Approach, without a reversal at T5?

You wouldn't, however unless you're going to add extra services into Paddington (and other places in the GWML would be pushing for those as well) you'd likely end up with services from both the Western Approach and from Waterloo both needing to turn around at Heathrow. As such is likely to be easier to run them with a reversal than timetabling (say) 8tph which terminate there.

It's either that or extend the Crossrail services to Heathrow out to Reading (or possibly on to Basingstoke, if you could sort out that line to fit more trains in) via the Western Approach, however that wouldn't really add much in terms of places served.
 
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PTR 444

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My ideas for a range of scenarios

Western access only
  • 2tph Heathrow - Basingstoke, calling at Slough, Reading, Reading Green Park, BASINGSTOKE
  • 2tph Heathrow - Didcot Parkway, calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring & Streatley, Cholsey, DIDCOT PARKWAY

Southern access only
  • 2tph London Paddington - Guildford, calling at OOC, Heathrow, Chertsey, Addlestone, Byfleet & New Haw, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon, GUILDFORD
  • 2tph London Paddington - Basingstoke, calling at OOC, Heathrow, Woking, Brookwood, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Winchfield, Hook, BASINGSTOKE
  • 2tph Heathrow - Reading, calling at Egham, Virginia Water, Longcross, Sunningdale, Ascot, Martins Heron, Bracknell, Wokingham, Winnersh, Winnersh Triangle, Earley, READING
  • 2tph Heathrow - Staines, calling at no intermediate stations
Both Western and Southern access
  • 2tph Heathrow - Reading, calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, READING
  • 2tph Heathrow - Didcot Parkway, calling at Slough, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring & Streatley, Cholsey, DIDCOT PARKWAY
  • 2tph London Paddington - Guildford, calling at OOC, Heathrow, Chertsey, Addlestone, Byfleet & New Haw, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon, GUILDFORD
  • 2tph London Paddington - Basingstoke, calling at OOC, Heathrow, Woking, Brookwood, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Winchfield, Hook, BASINGSTOKE
  • 2tph Heathrow - Wokingham, calling at Egham, Virginia Water, Longcross, Sunningdale, Ascot, Martins Heron, Bracknell, WOKINGHAM
  • 2tph Heathrow - Staines, calling at no intermediate stations
Heathrow in this context means both T2 & T5 stations.
 

kevin_roche

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2tph Heathrow - Basingstoke, calling at Slough, Reading, Reading Green Park, BASINGSTOKE

I think a service from Basingstoke is unlikely because of the lack of available paths between Reading and Basingstoke. Around 40 paths per day are Freight movements on that line.

The line is not yet electrified and would have to be electrified in order to run trains to Heathrow as it's unlikely they would allow diesel in the tunnels.

It might be possible to extend the existing 2tph services between Basingstoke and Reading, they stop at Bramley and Mortimer. The service would be slower as a result.

I personally think that the offer of trains to Basingstoke via Western access is just a false move by those who want to scupper Southern Access.
 

Sm5

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Keep it simple…
Paddington - Heathrow - Reading
Waterloo - Clapham Jn - Heathrow - Reading (- potentially Basingstoke if it was energised)

I think people connecting at OC for LHR is a pipe dream really, demand for this wont be any different from those today going to Euston and taking the tube to Paddington and doing the same today, probably taking the slow Hex too… only people doing this are those trading time & money for increased uninsured missed flight transfer risks, which HS2 doesnt solve.

A left field might be a Gatwick - East Croydon - Clapham Jn - Kensington Olympia - Heathrow - Reading … they could do this today with those under utilised Gatex 387’s… if only South London (or at least Clapham Jn) had a feed to the HS2 market, unfortunately the M25 will retain that role for access to the North.
 
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swt_passenger

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A left field might be a Gatwick - East Croydon - Clapham Jn - Kensington Olympia - Heathrow - Reading … they could do this today with those under utilised Gatex 387’s… if only South London (or at least Clapham Jn) had a feed to the HS2 market, unfortunately the M25 will retain that role for access to the North.
No they couldn’t, there’s no electrified route yet between WLL and GWML.
 

AlastairFraser

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Hounslow and Brentford are listed as being served, which aren't currently served by the Reading/Waterloo trains.

Not a big difference overall but each direct service does add benefits (as long as it doesn't result in trying to fit too many services in).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



You wouldn't, however unless you're going to add extra services into Paddington (and other places in the GWML would be pushing for those as well) you'd likely end up with services from both the Western Approach and from Waterloo both needing to turn around at Heathrow. As such is likely to be easier to run them with a reversal than timetabling (say) 8tph which terminate there.

It's either that or extend the Crossrail services to Heathrow out to Reading (or possibly on to Basingstoke, if you could sort out that line to fit more trains in) via the Western Approach, however that wouldn't really add much in terms of places served.
Extending the Crossrail services to T5 out to Newbury would make new connections along the valley, then using 2tph of the HeX paths to send a semi fast from somewhere like Oxford/Worcester through Heathrow would make sense because Oxford/Didcot having direct rail connections to the airport would help congestion on the A34/M4 in the area.
The final 2 HeX path could then be used for the Guildford to Paddington service as originally suggested and the remaining Crossrail services extended to Staines using the spur.
Western and Southern access
  • 2tph Heathrow - Reading, calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, READING
  • 2tph Heathrow - Didcot Parkway, calling at Slough, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring & Streatley, Cholsey, DIDCOT PARKWAY
  • 2tph London Paddington - Guildford, calling at OOC, Heathrow, Chertsey, Addlestone, Byfleet & New Haw, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon, GUILDFORD
  • 2tph London Paddington - Basingstoke, calling at OOC, Heathrow, Woking, Brookwood, Farnborough (Main), Fleet, Winchfield, Hook, BASINGSTOKE
  • 2tph Heathrow - Wokingham, calling at Egham, Virginia Water, Longcross, Sunningdale, Ascot, Martins Heron, Bracknell, WOKINGHAM
  • 2tph Heathrow - Staines, calling at no intermediate stations
Heathrow in this context means both T2 & T5 stations.
Looks like a decent plan, although you wouldn't be able to run both Heathrow to Reading and Heathrow to Didcot, you'd have to choose the latter, due to lack of path availability on the GWML.
The Paddington to Basingstoke and Guildford services work perfectly with those HeX paths, the Heathrow to Staines shuttle makes more sense as an extension of Crossrail through.
Heathrow to Woky is impossible because of the numerous level crossings on the SWR Reading lines, it derailed a similar scheme to Heathrow Southern Railway called BA Airtrack 10 to 15 years ago that suggested running services from Waterloo to Heathrow via Staines.
 
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zwk500

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No they couldn’t, there’s no electrified route yet between WLL and GWML.
Technically, there is but it's through North Pole depot. But wiring Mitre Bridge Jn - Acton Wells Jn - Acton Main Line has been looked at several times and wouldn't be a bad idea in general.
 

AlastairFraser

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I think a service from Basingstoke is unlikely because of the lack of available paths between Reading and Basingstoke. Around 40 paths per day are Freight movements on that line.

The line is not yet electrified and would have to be electrified in order to run trains to Heathrow as it's unlikely they would allow diesel in the tunnels.

It might be possible to extend the existing 2tph services between Basingstoke and Reading, they stop at Bramley and Mortimer. The service would be slower as a result.

I personally think that the offer of trains to Basingstoke via Western access is just a false move by those who want to scupper Southern Access.
GWR have supposedly found a path for a 3rd stopper using a 769 to run Oxford to Basingstoke alongside Oxford to Gatwick down the North Downs. But, yes, I don't think you'll find any more room for Basingstoke by Crossrail via the Western Access. Didcot Parkway can be done via the Western Access easily by getting rid of the Didcot Parkway GWR services from Paddington. Same for Newbury.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Keep it simple…
Paddington - Heathrow - Reading
Waterloo - Clapham Jn - Heathrow - Reading (- potentially Basingstoke if it was energised)

I think people connecting at OC for LHR is a pipe dream really, demand for this wont be any different from those today going to Euston and taking the tube to Paddington and doing the same today, probably taking the slow Hex too… only people doing this are those trading time & money for increased uninsured missed flight transfer risks, which HS2 doesnt solve.

A left field might be a Gatwick - East Croydon - Clapham Jn - Kensington Olympia - Heathrow - Reading … they could do this today with those under utilised Gatex 387’s… if only South London (or at least Clapham Jn) had a feed to the HS2 market, unfortunately the M25 will retain that role for access to the North.
The second suggestion is sadly unfeasible due to the number of level crossings from Waterloo to Staines and beyond, it is what derailed the BA Airtrack scheme for Waterloo to Heathrow services, which finally was killed off in 2008.
The last suggestion is interesting, it all depends whether you could fit that in on the GWML between Acton and Stockley Park Jcn, it would probably be easier just to build the Overground/Southern Interchange Stations at OOC first. That would be a more logical Interchange than getting a GWR fast train from points west to OOC and then doubling back.
 
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swt_passenger

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Technically, there is but it's through North Pole depot. But wiring Mitre Bridge Jn - Acton Wells Jn - Acton Main Line has been looked at several times and wouldn't be a bad idea in general.
I don’t think there’s a direct route via North Pole depot though, it’s only possible with reversals. Not exactly passenger friendly…
 

zwk500

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I don’t think there’s a direct route via North Pole depot though, it’s only possible with reversals. Not exactly passenger friendly…
As it happens it'd need 2 - one in the Depot itself and then one at (or just outside) Paddington. Agree it isn't going to happen for regular passenger service. I wouldn't put it past the track bashers to organise a top/tail Class 92 hauled tour for it though!
 

JonathanH

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GWR have supposedly found a path for a 3rd stopper using a 769 to run Oxford to Basingstoke alongside Oxford to Gatwick down the North Downs.
Where is that in the public domain?

It certainly isn't mentioned in the current track access request for the changes to run 2tph on the North Downs Line

Neither extension would be a good use of track capacity. Both would transmit delays to a wider part of the rail network.

One of the problems of any of these plans for stringing together services across Heathrow and beyond Reading or onto the South Western network have the risk of transmitting delays around the system.
 

AlastairFraser

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Where is that in the public domain?

It certainly isn't mentioned in the current track access request for the changes to run 2tph on the North Downs Line

Neither extension would be a good use of track capacity. Both would transmit delays to a wider part of the rail network.

One of the problems of any of these plans for stringing together services across Heathrow and beyond Reading or onto the South Western network have the risk of transmitting delays around the system.
I heard it mentioned as a possibility using the Reading dive under, can't find a source. Oxford to Gatwick/Basingstoke would be a good use of track capacity because it would reinstate direct Reading to Oxford stoppers, give Oxford/Abingdon/Didcot and many nearby stops a direct train to Gatwick with none/one change and it would take strain off XC services between Oxford and Basingstoke if there was a direct train to Basingstoke for connection with eastbound SWML /West of England line services.
 

zwk500

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I heard it mentioned as a possibility using the Reading dive under, can't find a source. Oxford to Gatwick/Basingstoke would be a good use of track capacity because it would reinstate direct Reading to Oxford stoppers, give Oxford/Abingdon/Didcot and many nearby stops a direct train to Gatwick with none/one change and it would take strain off XC services between Oxford and Basingstoke if there was a direct train to Basingstoke for connection with eastbound SWML /West of England line services.
Oxford to Basingstoke wouldn't help anybody going to Gatwick. Oxford stoppers are better run to/from Paddington as restoration of those that currently terminate at Didcot. The reversal at Reading isn't going to be a good use of track capacity. Anywhere with a direct train to Reading is already only 1 change from Gatwick. An Oxford-Basingstoke stopper will do 0 to relieve XC services, unless the tickets are being sold for less than £5.

GWR certainly aren't planning Oxford to Basingstoke or Gatwick anytime soon.
 

PTR 444

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Looks like a decent plan, although you wouldn't be able to run both Heathrow to Reading and Heathrow to Didcot, you'd have to choose the latter, due to lack of path availability on the GWML.
So only have 2tph on the Western Link? Or do you mean keep 4tph but have them all running to Didcot?
 

AlastairFraser

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So only have 2tph on the Western Link? Or do you mean keep 4tph but have them all running to Didcot?
Nah, get rid of the GWR Padd to Newbury/Didcot (Oxford, once electrification is completed) and replace them with Padd to Newbury/Didcot via Heathrow as 4tph Crossrail extensions.
That's how you free up space for 4tph using the Western access.
Slightly different from the original idea, but there's space for an extra 2tph on the GWML, plus another extra 2tph by routing the Padd to Didcot/Newbury through Heathrow as Crossrail.
 

The Ham

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One of the problems of any of these plans for stringing together services across Heathrow and beyond Reading or onto the South Western network have the risk of transmitting delays around the system

Of course, however with such a potentially large draw as Old Oak Common for HS2 you'll only end up with lots of people changing at Heathrow from the Woking services. Which is there's significant numbers of them could cause issues at Heathrow. As an example would anyone suggest running a Portsmouth to Woking shuttle in case delays impact the wider network.

The other thing to bear in mind is can you reverse that number of services at Heathrow without causing more issues than the potential for cross Heathrow services.
 

PTR 444

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Nah, get rid of the GWR Padd to Newbury/Didcot (Oxford, once electrification is completed) and replace them with Padd to Newbury/Didcot via Heathrow as 4tph Crossrail extensions.
That's how you free up space for 4tph using the Western access.
Slightly different from the original idea, but there's space for an extra 2tph on the GWML, plus another extra 2tph by routing the Padd to Didcot/Newbury through Heathrow as Crossrail.
Doubt the residents of Theale, Thatcham and Tilehurst - Cholsey will be happy to have their London service slowed down.
 

zwk500

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Oh Yes I forgot.. that few penny pinching metres thats just a gap too far.
i’ll never understand that decision.
What services could have made use of the Poplars and South West Lines being wired?
 

Sm5

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What services could have made use of the Poplars and South West Lines being wired?
none, because theirs no wires.
You could use the same argument for leaving the Oxted line unelectrified.

if it was wired Gatwick - Heathrow would be possible.. it isnt, so it cant.. so Nat Express runs a very heavily loaded bus shuttle instead… and LHR doesnt have a meaningful connection to the South East, except the M25.

but..

Potential for AC freight to Acton becomes possible, especially as HS2 is about opening up freight paths at the south end of the WCML..

Sometimes little things unlocks potential, the cost of this short spur would have been little more than a friday night shift using leftovers from the GWML electrification… Instead its a barrier that will need a high cost dedicated short term project to organise and do (and one which will need to be done eventually).

You can be right and you can be dead, right.. in this case I feel they were dead, right… saved a penny but deferred the pound.
 

zwk500

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none, because theirs no wires.
Circular logic becomes a self-defeating argument. Plenty of trains use the Poplars. None of them would convert to electric on this section alone. You'd need other sections e.g. Reading-basingstoke or Class 92 immunisation on the southern region. That's why they weren't wired.
You could use the same argument for leaving the Oxted line unelectrified.
Not true. Oxted hasn't been done because of the 3rd rail debate + costs. The services that would go electric are very, very clear.
if it was wired Gatwick - Heathrow would be possible
Possible but completely uncompetitive against Vic-Pad via Circle line, for a relatively small part of the market. Most travellers at either Airport are heading for London, not the other airport. You can only access the WLL via the Slows/Reliefs, so it's either stuck behind the stopper for ages or you've got to cross somewhere. Neither are conducive to paths that attract high-value customers.
Potential for AC freight to Acton becomes possible, especially as HS2 is about opening up freight paths at the south end of the WCML.
From where to where, whilst 92s are largely banned from the 3rd rail network, and Reading-Basingstoke & Kew remain unwired?
Sometimes little things unlocks potential, the cost of this short spur would have been little more than a friday night shift using leftovers from the GWML electrification… Instead its a barrier that will need a high cost dedicated short term project to organise and do (and one which will need to be done eventually).

You can be right and you can be dead, right.. in this case I feel they were dead, right… saved a penny but deferred the pound.
It's a bloody steep set of lines, which need neutral sections in the middle to allow isolations between the various junctions. It's a bit more than just a few loose ends and some left over piles. I agree it's a missed opportunity, but I fear had they been wired they'd have seen the same amount of electric traffic, because of the other gaps in the network.

Either way, we've drifted somewhat from the thread title.
 

Sm5

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Circular logic becomes a self-defeating argument. Plenty of trains use the Poplars. None of them would convert to electric on this section alone. You'd need other sections e.g. Reading-basingstoke or Class 92 immunisation on the southern region. That's why they weren't wired.

Not true. Oxted hasn't been done because of the 3rd rail debate + costs. The services that would go electric are very, very clear.

Possible but completely uncompetitive against Vic-Pad via Circle line, for a relatively small part of the market. Most travellers at either Airport are heading for London, not the other airport. You can only access the WLL via the Slows/Reliefs, so it's either stuck behind the stopper for ages or you've got to cross somewhere. Neither are conducive to paths that attract high-value customers.

From where to where, whilst 92s are largely banned from the 3rd rail network, and Reading-Basingstoke & Kew remain unwired?

It's a bloody steep set of lines, which need neutral sections in the middle to allow isolations between the various junctions. It's a bit more than just a few loose ends and some left over piles. I agree it's a missed opportunity, but I fear had they been wired they'd have seen the same amount of electric traffic, because of the other gaps in the network.

Either way, we've drifted somewhat from the thread title.
I’m pretty sure the last new build 100% diesel has been built and delivered in this country. Pressure is going to grow, for instance,
i’d imagine Its a matter of time before AC reaches Southampton from Reading.

The future is coming, those gaps are really cracks, and the only way to fill them is one at a time, but until then they become increasingly expensive barriers… which have a niggly habit of becoming political.
 

zwk500

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I’m pretty sure the last new build 100% diesel has been built and delivered in this country. Pressure is going to grow, for instance,
I agree
i’d imagine Its a matter of time before AC reaches Southampton from Reading.
A very, very long time. The priority will be wiring non electric lines first. We're already far enough behind
The future is coming, those gaps are really cracks, and the only way to fill them is one at a time, but until then they become increasingly expensive barriers… which have a niggly habit of becoming political.
I agree. But we're rather far from the thread topic.
 

AlastairFraser

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Doubt the residents of Theale, Thatcham and Tilehurst - Cholsey will be happy to have their London service slowed down.
All the Thames/Kennet valley stations west of Reading could easily change at Reading for the turn up and go frequency fast GWR services into Paddington. And they lack any direct service to the airport, even RailAir/ National Express only stop in Reading Town Centre/Mereoak Park and Ride at M4 J11 and they take an absolute year to get to Heathrow. Not to mention the volumes commuting to Slough and Maidenhead from those station, both of which have significant town centre business district and Slough Trading Estate, a regional draw, is reasonably close to Burnham.
 

HSTEd

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I’m pretty sure the last new build 100% diesel has been built and delivered in this country. Pressure is going to grow, for instance,

Have all the Class 197s been delivered already? But I agree that if not already, then soon.

i’d imagine Its a matter of time before AC reaches Southampton from Reading.
A very long time, there is no business case for conversion of Basingstoke to Southampton once the bean counters were forced to use realistic AC electrification cost estimates.

Works to enable use of Class 92s (or similar) would cost a tiny fraction as much as conversion.
 
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