Compulsory seat reservations with VT?

[philjo]

There is an article in today's Times newspaper (page 21) saying that Virgin are considering plans to make seat reservations compulsory on their trains at peak times to reduce crowding.
One option is to only allow passengers to board during evening peak times at Euston if they have a seat reservation, particularly on a Friday.
A large rise in the unregulated peak (i.e. anytime) fares is also being considered.

It looks to be connected with the issue of not being able to use the additional carriages for the pendolinos - i.e. they may implement this if they can't use the additional carriages.

 

[talltim]

So how do seasons fit into that?

 

[Pumbaa]

If you're travelling anyway on a Friday or Sunday afternoon, you need a reservation to garuntee getting on your desired service. If its particularly busy, they split the queue into reserved/non-reserved, get all the people with reservations on and then fill up at the last minute as many people as they can. You may not always get on.

 

[mumrar]

So how do seasons fit into that?

Any holder of a valid ticket can make a free reservation at any time up to the night before travel. Theres nothing to stop season ticket holders making reservations on these services.

 

[Failed Unit]

Raise the unregulated fares? Next virgin will be moaning that their trains after the peak are also overcrowded. Poor virgin they don't get the rail industry. It is not an airline. People can choose to stand if they want. However if the want to hand Birmingham Travellers to chiltern let them. Shame manchester has no choice but to use them. Maybe east midlands trains should send a few HSTs to Manchester again.

 

[Lampshade]

Raise the unregulated fares? Next virgin will be moaning that their trains after the peak are also overcrowded. Poor virgin they don't get the rail industry. It is not an airline. People can choose to stand if they want. However if the want to hand Birmingham Travellers to chiltern let them. Shame manchester has no choice but to use them. Maybe east midlands trains should send a few HSTs to Manchester again.

IIRC Midland Mainline was made to withdraw the Manchester service because of the competition protection. I think Manchester is a prime candidate for open access after 2010, it has a turn-up-and-go timetable but the fares are ridiculous, there needs to be an alternative.

 

[route:oxford]

Maybe east midlands trains should send a few HSTs to Manchester again.

Or First could start a NewCo to operate an hourly OA service from Paddington to Manchester. First would then subcontract an hourly Oxford : Paddington to NewCo to save paths...

Stock, Stock, Stock...

(As always)

 

[MCR247]

Why would first want to do that?

 

[route:oxford]

Why would first want to do that?

Is this one of the few occasions when an OA operator wouldn't benefit from an ORCATs raid?

 

[yorkie]

Why would first want to do that?

They would IF it was lucrative to do so under ORCATS. But considering how congested the GWML, and the line between Didcot and Birmingham both are, it seems highly unlikely that such a train would generate any ORCATS money as it would be overtaken. So it's a non-starter.
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Is this one of the few occasions when an OA operator wouldn't benefit from an ORCATs raid?

An ORCATS raid is where a company optimises its timetable specifically to generate money under ORCATS. This is obviously subjective. By definition, an additional service between Paddington and Birmingham by FGW would not be an ORCATS raid, except perhaps for flows between Reading/Oxford/Banbury and Birmingham, where the train called (this would abstract money from XC, and, north of Banbury, Chiltern) which is unlikely to be lucrative.

 

[rail-britain]

There is an article in today's Times newspaper (page 21) saying that Virgin are considering plans to make seat reservations compulsory on their trains at peak times to reduce crowding

This used to be common on many trains under BR InterCity
Announcements would be made that reservations were essential in order to use the service
However, there was no "penalty" system in effect so made it fairly pointless and not enforceable

Equally, if someone is travelling at short notice it is not always possible to make a reservation (as they have closed), and the fare typically reflects that
Therefore I can see VT setting up a "standby reservation" system to counter this, in the same way as airlines do

 

[bnm]

They would IF it was lucrative to do so under ORCATS. But considering how congested the GWML, and the line between Didcot and Birmingham both are, it seems highly unlikely that such a train would generate any ORCATS money as it would be overtaken. So it's a non-starter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An ORCATS raid is where a company optimises its timetable specifically to generate money under ORCATS. This is obviously subjective. By definition, an additional service between Paddington and Birmingham by FGW would not be an ORCATS raid, except perhaps for flows between Reading/Oxford/Banbury and Birmingham, where the train called (this would abstract money from XC, and, north of Banbury, Chiltern) which is unlikely to be lucrative.

Wouldn't necessarily have to run via Reading and Oxford. It could run via the New North Main Line to join the Chiltern Main Line at Northolt Junction. Agree that congestion at the Paddington end may be an issue but between Banbury and Birmingham ATW had identified paths on the CML for their aborted Aberyswyth - Marylebone service, so pathing there may not be so problematical.

Of course, all hypothetical. Many other reasons why it's a non-starter.

 

[barrykas]

This used to be common on many trains under BR InterCity
Announcements would be made that reservations were essential in order to use the service
However, there was no "penalty" system in effect so made it fairly pointless and not enforceable.

I suspect that this policy, regardless of marking in the timetable, would only be enforced at the terminals, by means of a barrier check.

Equally, if someone is travelling at short notice it is not always possible to make a reservation (as they have closed), and the fare typically reflects that
Therefore I can see VT setting up a "standby reservation" system to counter this, in the same way as airlines do

Much like they did at Euston (and fGW did at Paddington IIRC) at Christmas for a few years, with boarding passes and "standby" boarding passes for those who didn't have a ressie.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[12CSVT]

This could be the thin end of an unpleasent wedge if it goes ahead. Start off with 'peak' services (Virgin's defintion of 'peak times' seems to be 0600-1200 and 1400-2000) and before you know it, they'll try to do the same to all their services. Lets not forget that Virgin wanted to do something similar when they first took over the Cross Country and West Coast franchises.
I'm sure most people would rather stand than not be allowed to travel at all.
What happens if all services to a particular destination are fully reserved for the day ?

 

[mathmo]

So was I very lucky when travelling Euston - Liverpool on Friday at 6pm a few months ago to find the train was only just over half-full? (I walked through most of standard class so I'm pretty confident this was the case.) I have a YP railcard so avoided the absolutely extortionate Anytime fares... Certainly you didn't need a reservation on that train!

 

[At_traction]

Equally, if someone is travelling at short notice it is not always possible to make a reservation (as they have closed), and the fare typically reflects that

And with a, say, rail pass or similar "batch" ticketing? That would of course remove for their user the at-a-moment's-notice flexibility (unless it could be considered a flexible ticket) but could the reservation requirement also completely bar the use of reservation-only trains without a preparatory reservation? Point-to-point travelling (normally pre-planned journeys, quite like with airlines) aren't so much affected, but roving travel, sometimes with little possibility for even online reservation would be notably affected.

 

[shinkansen1966]

There is an article in today's Times newspaper (page 21) saying that Virgin are considering plans to make seat reservations compulsory on their trains at peak times to reduce crowding.
One option is to only allow passengers to board during evening peak times at Euston if they have a seat reservation, particularly on a Friday.
A large rise in the unregulated peak (i.e. anytime) fares is also being considered.

It looks to be connected with the issue of not being able to use the additional carriages for the pendolinos - i.e. they may implement this if they can't use the additional carriages.

Or more likely a revenue raising exercise. Expect Virgin (and others) to gradually reduce the appeal of discounted off peak tickets. So that we will be left with just advance or anytime tickets. The bulk of us buying advanced tickets.

If they can get the technology right, this could be extended to season ticket holders, too. You just log on to the Virgin web site and reserve a seat 10 mins before departure.

Little by little, turn up and go may be withering away for InterCity travel. Compolsory reservations and advance ticket can raise revenue and further manipulate demand. Avoids the chore of having to order or lease new rolling stock.

 

[Hooverguy]

I think Manchester is a prime candidate for open access after 2010, it has a turn-up-and-go timetable but the fares are ridiculous, there needs to be an alternative.

Not so, there are some unbelievable bargains to be had with some AP fares. Train fares have never been this low!

 

[shinkansen1966]

Not so, there are some unbelievable bargains to be had with some AP fares. Train fares have never been this low!

Indeed. No need for open access. Just affordable rail fares for all and provided by one company.

Using Virgin Train's best fares finder, even on a Friday night from Euston, you can get one way advanced purchase fares to Manchester for £29. Generally, cheapest one way fares are £11. Though, for travel for next Friday evening, there's nothing cheaper than £54. Unless you're prepared to travel on the 23:00 out of Euston for £17.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not so, there are some unbelievable bargains to be had with some AP fares. Train fares have never been this low!

I don't think people will dispute that off-peak but if you need to travel in the ever expanding peak you feel like you have being robbed. If you wait unit the start of the off peak you are sardined in. Yes you can do London to Scotland for £13 but not when you want to. That is the point Virgin want to end turn up and go travel. I would rather keep that than some of the very cheap APs

 

[shinkansen1966]

That is the point Virgin want to end turn up and go travel. I would rather keep that than some of the very cheap APs

Whether you like it or not, think walk on fares and walk on train travel for long distance trips is ending. Compulsory reservations manipulates demand and advance purchase tickets with punishing conditions raises revenue.

SNCF has compulsory reservations for their TGV services. Paris to Dijon is about the same distance as London to Manchester. For travel next Friday night, expect to pay £54 for a one way ticket to Manchester with Virgin with no amendments and no refunds. SNCF's fare from Paris to Dijon is €54 - €60. Though with each of those SNCF tickets, there's scope to amend or refund the ticket.

No surprises that some people are choosing to buy advance purchase ticket for successive depatures rather than pay the seemingly hundreds of pounds for an anytime ticket. Well at least it gives the impression of boosting individual ticket sales....

 

[Hooverguy]

You've never been able to just turn up at an airport and get on a plane without paying through the roof, why should the train be any different?

 

[cuccir]

You've never been able to just turn up at an airport and get on a plane without paying through the roof, why should the train be any different?

Because trains stop en route and airplanes generally don't.
Because some train journeys last two or three minutes, whereas as the shortest scheduled flights are at least half an hour.
Because trains often run to regular clockface frequencies of one every ten/fifteen/thirty minutes, whereas flights rarely run with more than 4 services a day
And so on and so on...

 

[bb21]

You've never been able to just turn up at an airport and get on a plane without paying through the roof, why should the train be any different?

Would you ever try jumping on an aircraft to travel 20 miles down the road? I don't think so. The two modes are not comparable.

 

[Failed Unit]

You've never been able to just turn up at an airport and get on a plane without paying through the roof, why should the train be any different?

It is and I don't. What I object to is that if I pay £200+ for an anytime ticket I am not allowed on the train even to stand. That is the whole point of rail and it's big advantage over air. To lose that what is the point of the high speed service. If you force people onto their book train only virgin only need one per hour.

 

[shinkansen1966]

It is and I don't. What I object to is that if I pay £200+ for an anytime ticket I am not allowed on the train even to stand. That is the whole point of rail and it's big advantage over air. To lose that what is the point of the high speed service. If you force people onto their book train only virgin only need one per hour.

This is the flaw with current system. We now have 3 trains per hour from Euston to Manchester. And at the same time, increasingly expensive walk on fares.

One solution is to make it easier to book for near immediate travel with advance tickets being available (say) an hour before travel. And for your ticket to be delivered as an SMS or email.

 

[At_traction]

And at the same time, increasingly expensive walk on fares.

If someone's ready to pay that extra to get the flexibility, he/she should have it. IMO.

One solution is to make it easier to book for near immediate travel with advance tickets being available (say) an hour before travel. And for your ticket to be delivered as an SMS or email.

This is just the sort of juggling with gadgetry that I, for one, personally detest while being on the move. It's one thing to do these things while seated at home next to a proper computer and plan accordingly, but when one pays for flexibility, I expect to not have to surf on, frankly, unsurfable TOC web pages (especially with a phone or other small-screen thingy) just in order to register for a travel to a destination...

Certainly it's easier for operators that way and it streamlines "excess capacity", but undoubtedly they'd be willing to introduce even more methods to keep the costs down. SNCF's example is just the sort that makes one think twice about the use of (longer-distance) train there.

 

[shinkansen1966]

If someone's ready to pay that extra to get the flexibility, he/she should have it. IMO.

And there's the nub: anytime walk on fares are just that. You buy a ticket and you walk on to a train. Whether you can get a seat is another matter. It's whether that's acceptable or not.

Personally, I quite like the idea of limiting the number of passengers on a long distance train to the number of seats. I know, others have a different view.

Buying a ticket from a PC and having it delivered to your mobile is excellent. Like you say, messing about on a mobile phone is no fun. If we were to have compulsory reservations, then TVMs at the stations should also be able to provide reservations for immediate departure.

 

[sheff1]

You've never been able to just turn up at an airport and get on a plane without paying through the roof, why should the train be any different?

Oh yes, you have. Back in the 90's I often pitched up at Jersey airport, did the circuit of the different airline desks and picked up very reasonably priced singles to the mainland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we were to have compulsory reservations, then TVMs at the stations should also be able to provide reservations for immediate departure.

Which is exactly what they do in France.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You've never been able to just turn up at an airport and get on a plane without paying through the roof, why should the train be any different?

The old British Airways Shuttle services before all the security restrictions was a low fare turn up and go service; back in the 1980s you could even pay on board! And on occasion adter they re-launched it as "Super Shuttle" they let it be known that they would even usedConcorde occasionally on the relief services if the main flights were selling out quickly. ( This led to aircraft enthusiasts who worked in offices overlooking Terminal 1 to regularly make their excuses and a mad dash for it if they saw a Concorde being led to the Shuttle gates! )