London to Edinburgh fares...

[Merseysider]

...are now routed either “Avanti” or “via York” for Anytime/Off Peak tickets.

BRFares

This precludes passengers using Transpennine Express or other operators - journey planners offer plenty of itineraries using TPE via Carlisle, for example Thu 5th Aug:

0810 EUS - CAR 1150, 1207 CAR - EDB 1329

1010 EUS - CAR 1351, 1414 CAR - EDB 1539

1210 EUS - CAR 1550, 1616 CAR - EDB 1738

etc.

Yes, the LNER services via the east coast are about half an hour faster, but these are prone to running out of seat reservations, and in any case passengers should have a choice of route.

Are Avanti allowed to restrict flexible tickets up the west coast to only their services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This has been the case for ages (at least 2 years), and it's stupid.

What happened was that:
1. LNER restricted the Any Permitted fares to via York. This meant there was no fare via the WCML at all, and this situation persisted for some weeks.
2. To fix this, Avanti introduced their own fares (which to be fair to them come at a slight discount).

You can work around it by splitting at Preston/Carlisle where all such trains call. However this adds somewhat to the fare (corrected).

You can also work around it by buying a ticket to somewhere near Edinburgh that gets the same fare, these aren't routed.

 

[Merseysider]

This has been the case for ages (at least 2 years), and it's stupid.

I hadn’t noticed, what with the pandemic and everything

You can work around it by splitting at Preston/Carlisle where all such trains call. However this adds somewhat to the fare (corrected).

You can also work around it by buying a ticket to somewhere near Edinburgh that gets the same fare, these aren't routed.

True, and that’s probably what I’d do if I needed to make such a journey at short notice. But how many ‘normal’ passengers would think to do that?

I doubt this affects just London - Edinburgh, there must be other examples across the network where you are prevented from using an operator/route purely by the route on the ticket.

On a side note, it appears Avanti have introduced some nicely priced walk-up fares from Manchester to Edinburgh - £45 for an Off Peak single route “Avanti&Northern”.

 

[Starmill]

To fix this, Avanti introduced their own fares (which to be fair to them come at a slight discount).

Slight being the correct way to describe it, yes; they're offering a whole £3.40 off, equivalent to a 2.1% discount, in exchange for being bound to just six direct services per day. And the first two, leaving London and 0632 and 0832, you're not allowed to use Monday - Thursday. They could have at least eased the restriction on the latter, you don't get to Edinburgh until well after 1400.

 

[Hadders]

The reason for this ludicrous situation is LNER’s single leg pricing between Edinburgh and London.

Because Edinburgh to London is valid via Glasgow and the WCML Avanti we’re not happy that passengers could purchase Edinburgh to London single tickets far cheaper than Glasgow to London tickets. It also undercut Manchester to London tickets.

To fix this Edinburgh to London tickets became routed ‘via York’ and Avanti introduced ‘Route Avanti’ tickets. This meant passengers were no longer allowed to travel on permitted routes with TPE, WMT, Chiltern or GWR.

This could all be fixed by changing ‘Route Avanti’ to ‘via Preston’.

 

[andythebrave]

.....

 

[yorkie]

This is the sort of thing Transport Focus should be challenging the TOCs on, but I don't think they are interested.

The Rail Ombudsman is absolutely not interested in this sort of thing.

The reason for this ludicrous situation is LNER’s single leg pricing between Edinburgh and London.

Because Edinburgh to London is valid via Glasgow and the WCML Avanti we’re not happy that passengers could purchase Edinburgh to London single tickets far cheaper than Glasgow to London tickets. It also undercut Manchester to London tickets.

Avanti should have been told to lump it; I'd like to know what conversations occurred and who made these decisions, and I'd rather like to have an argument with them (the full argument, not the 5 minute one )

 

[Hadders]

Via Preston would sort of work but how would one do Edinburgh Carlisle Leeds London?

‘Via Carlisle’ rather than ‘via Preston’ then.

 

[Watershed]

This is the sort of thing Transport Focus should be challenging the TOCs on, but I don't think they are interested.

There is some highly revealing correspondence between LNER and Transport Focus which was disclosed under FoI.

Transport Focus were concerned about making sure the intended nature of the restriction was clear (going so far as to suggest 'via ECML').

 

[bakerstreet]

There is some highly revealing correspondence between LNER and Transport Focus which was disclosed under FoI.

Transport Focus were concerned about making sure the intended nature of the restriction was clear (going so far as to suggest 'via ECML').

Interesting the references to St ‘Pancreas’ (sic) within !

 

[mmh]

True, and that’s probably what I’d do if I needed to make such a journey at short notice. But how many ‘normal’ passengers would think to do that?

Probably very very few. But then very very few will consider travelling from London to Edinburgh other than on a direct train, or returning via a different route, either.

I'm not defending the situation, and believe it is wrong for fares to be restricted in this way.

 

[Merseysider]

Probably very very few. But then very very few will consider travelling from London to Edinburgh other than on a direct train, or returning via a different route, either.

I'm not defending the situation, and believe it is wrong for fares to be restricted in this way.

Yes, you’re probably right. It’s the principle for me - any erosion to passenger rights needs to be justified imo, and not just for revenue reasons.

Thankfully, websites such as Trainsplit do a great job at offering tickets for journeys where no through fare is available, but I’m of the opinion that a passenger should be able to walk up to a ticket office or look on a journey planner and be offered a price for a through ticket whichever (reasonable) route or train company they plan to take.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This could all be fixed by changing ‘Route Avanti’ to ‘via Preston’.

It would be fixed by national single-fare pricing, which is needed anyway. Then there'd be no reason for Avanti to be bothered about people buying the wrong ticket.

 

[plugwash]

The workaround is to buy tickets to galashiels instead of edinburgh.

edit: I see this as already been mentioned.

 

[Watershed]

The workaround is to buy tickets to galashiels instead of edinburgh.

Whilst the Anytime and Off-Peak Returns are the same price, the Super Off-Peak Return is more expensive. I'd just get the ticket to Haymarket, it's treated interchangeably with Edinburgh as far as ticket barriers etc. are concerned.

 

[Merseysider]

It would be fixed by national single-fare pricing, which is needed anyway. Then there'd be no reason for Avanti to be bothered about people buying the wrong ticket.

I agree. The distance from London to Edinburgh is about 400 miles whether you go up the left or the right of the country and logic dictates that the price shouldn’t differ depending on which you do.

And nationally, when it eventually arrives, single leg pricing ought to be rolled out at the same time all over the place or further issues like this will just keep cropping up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. The distance from London to Edinburgh is about 400 miles whether you go up the left or the right of the country and logic dictates that the price shouldn’t differ depending on which you do.

There's an argument that at present (pre HS2) the West Coast route is slower for Edinburgh and so it could be offered as a budget option, making it a bit cheaper. But you can avoid confusion by doing that with Advances and keeping the walk-up tickets as one set.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The LNER single leg pricing on specific journeys is of course a trial of the single leg pricing principle, sponsored by DfT with their in-house TOC.
Presumably if/when GBR introduces the principle across the whole network the anomalies will fall away.
But if the two systems have to coexist there will continue to be problems.
I suspect that the GBR long-distance TOCs (the ones allowed more commercial freedom than the rest) will continue to have conflicts over flows and fares.

In the "Route Avanti" case, it works particularly badly in the Covid world where Avanti are operating fewer services north of Preston, with TPE filling some gaps.

 

[andythebrave]

.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does 'route Avanti' mean that they keep all the revenue?

Yes.

And, as the fare setter don't they have a responsibility to set an interavailable fare?

LNER own the flow. However as they are engaged in a trial the normal rules don't apply.

 

[andythebrave]

.....

 

[Starmill]

Thanks.

So, would it be correct to say that LNER are responsible for providing a fare for all permitted routes?

There are many examples where there's no fare for a permitted route.

Fast journeys from Huddersfield to Chesterfield are available via Wakefield, avoiding Leeds. But no fare exists to permit this so you may not do it on a Huddersfield to Chesterfield ticket. There is no good reason for that situation.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks.

So, would it be correct to say that LNER are responsible for providing a fare for all permitted routes?

In theory, there ought to be a fare for all permitted routes. But with the introduction of more restrictive fare routes over recent years (in a vain attempt to eradicate the "unclear" term Any Permitted) this is often no longer the case.

In other circumstances, as @Starmill alludes to, new services or timetable changes mean there are fastest routes that are not permitted, because these weren't considered plausible at the time of privatisation, when the fares system was largely set in aspic.

The TSA gives fare setters various obligations, but it has been ridden over roughshod so many times over recent years, without any notable penalty, that compliance now seems to be regarded among TOCs as 'desirable' rather than mandatory. The DfT and ORR certainly don't seem to have any interest in enforcing its provisions.

 

[yorkie]

So, would it be correct to say that LNER are responsible for providing a fare for all permitted routes?

Quite possibly. I'd like to see an enquiry take place to determine who was to blame, and who was complicit, in this erosion of passenger rights. To what extent was it Avanti, LNER, the DfT themselves?

If only there was an effective passenger watchdog and a proactive rail ombudsman. We can but dream!

 

[AY1975]

On a side note, it appears Avanti have introduced some nicely priced walk-up fares from Manchester to Edinburgh - £45 for an Off Peak single route “Avanti&Northern”.

If you don't mind changing, that's very good value compared to TransPennine Express's cheapest available walk-on Manchester-Edinburgh fare: a £83.10 Anytime Single (TPE does not appear to offer Manchester-Edinburgh Off Peak Singles at all). If you're lucky (and don't mind booking in advance and committing to a specific train) you can sometimes get TPE Advance tickets from Manchester to Edinburgh for £42.50, for example, though.