TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Bletchleyite]

There is the Saturday S6 from Bangor to PenYPass via Capal. From Capal to Bewts, there is the hourly S2.

Unfortunately the network isn't set up for quality connections, so unless you're going to do that (which to be fair I think they should) a through service has value.

 

[Dai Corner]

I hadn't come across this 2020 North Wales Regional Bus Strategy Report before

Included in the Strategic services are a number of TrawsCymru services.
TrawsCymru is a network of long distance bus services covering the whole of Wales. It is a combination of tendered and commercial services, provided by a number of operators but with a common branding. The origin of TrawsCymru is the Traws Cambria Bangor – Cardiff service which was introduced in 1979. This was partly an attempt to improve connectivity between north and south Wales. As devolution gave greater powers to Wales and the strategic focus on the needs of Wales developed, the potential for an expanded network of long distance bus services was highlighted. In 2008, the Welsh Government's Transport Strategy 'Connecting Wales' promised expansion of the Traws Cambria network. Subsequent developments and investment, together with a re-branding in 2011 as TrawsCymru, have led to the current operation of 10 main services and 4 TrawsCymru Connect services.

One of the main criteria applied to potential TrawsCymru services is that they should supplement, rather than duplicate, the rail network, so that they form part of a single long distance network. In the North Wales region, there are significant areas which are not part of this long distance public transport network.

As part of the TrawsCymru Review 2019, carried out for Welsh Government by The BusMan Transport Consultancy, the University of Southampton produced a Demand Prediction Model for analysing the potential demand for new TrawsCymru services. This suggested there was a case for converting some existing bus services into TrawsCymru routes. Those proposed were:
T15 Rhyl – St. Asaph – Denbigh – Ruthin – Wrexham.
This is currently the Arriva X51 service which has been suspended east of Denbigh due to the Lockdown. Its future post-pandemic is uncertain giving an opportunity for the proposal to be implemented. Connections would be made with the rail network at Rhyl and Wrexham.
T16 Corwen – Ruthin – Mold – Chester
This service would combine 2 existing tendered routes using the same resources but connecting with the T3 at Corwen and linking parts of Denbighshire and Flintshire to Chester and the rail network.
The introduction of these services needs to be considered in implementing the North Wales Bus Strategy.

 

[markymark2000]

Unfortunately the network isn't set up for quality connections, so unless you're going to do that (which to be fair I think they should) a through service has value.

Are many people going Bangor to Bewts though or would it instead be better increase the frequencies of the S6 and improve connections of the S2?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are many people going Bangor to Bewts though or would it instead be better increase the frequencies of the S6 and improve connections of the S2?

In the case of Snowdonia it's about enabling more "accommodation to activity" and "accommodation/activity to railway station" type journeys, which means taking a holiday there (or a day trip from nearby places like Chester, Liverpool and Manchester) without a car becomes more feasible. So any connectivity improvement is a good thing. Personally I think there's a strong case for timed, planned connections Swiss-style in this context, but that's probably one for another thread. But more "cross city"* operations are at least a start.

* Yes, I know it's not a city, but pairing up routes where you have a cross-city demand is a common strategy in urban networks, and it's basically the same idea.

 

[markymark2000]

In the case of Snowdonia it's about enabling more "accommodation to activity" and "accommodation/activity to railway station" type journeys, which means taking a holiday there (or a day trip from nearby places like Chester, Liverpool and Manchester) without a car becomes more feasible. So any connectivity improvement is a good thing. Personally I think there's a strong case for timed, planned connections Swiss-style in this context, but that's probably one for another thread. But more "cross city"* operations are at least a start.

* Yes, I know it's not a city, but pairing up routes where you have a cross-city demand is a common strategy in urban networks, and it's basically the same idea.

I fully agree with you about some cross demand which could and should be picked up on but in some cases, it can be done with no additional buses. Just Gwynned Council don't have the braincells to do it (literally no buses connect in Llanberis at all and half of them don't even stop in the interchange loop, instead using the main road but that is a different story). What I am trying to point towards is if you have 2 buses, what do you do with them in the region to improve the bus network. T10 surely isn't the route you would come up with.

 

[carlberry]

I fully agree with you about some cross demand which could and should be picked up on but in some cases, it can be done with no additional buses. Just Gwynned Council don't have the braincells to do it (literally no buses connect in Llanberis at all and half of them don't even stop in the interchange loop, instead using the main road but that is a different story). What I am trying to point towards is if you have 2 buses, what do you do with them in the region to improve the bus network. T10 surely isn't the route you would come up with.

Part of the problem is the number of different agendas. Gwynedd for the local buses, the national park for Sherpa and the Welsh Government for Traws. However it's clear that the T10 isn't the result of somebody asking how two buses could make a difference somewhere, it's the result of somebody looking at a map and saying that theres a gap that Traws could fill. The fact half of the gap would be better served with an improved Sherpa service and the other part is a gap because the local population of sheep/buffalo don't catch buses isn't going to stop a new service idea!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Part of the problem is the number of different agendas. Gwynedd for the local buses, the national park for Sherpa and the Welsh Government for Traws. However it's clear that the T10 isn't the result of somebody asking how two buses could make a difference somewhere, it's the result of somebody looking at a map and saying that theres a gap that Traws could fill. The fact half of the gap would be better served with an improved Sherpa service and the other part is a gap because the local population of sheep/buffalo don't catch buses isn't going to stop a new service idea!

My thoughts encapsulated. There's a fundamental issue in that TC have a raison d'etre and that's long distance bus services which is where the T10 comes in. It meets the criteria but one half of the route is sheep and seagulls (and buffalo) and not much else. The other half, where any demand will be for tourism, is served by a relatively low frequency so it will fail to be attractive to walkers.

Whilst the Demand Prediction Model was used for the potential T15/T16 (and is based on existing corridors and routes), I wonder what the research was for the T10 in justifying its introduction. I suspect it is, as @carlberry suggests, some arbitrary filling in of gaps on a map.

 

[Rhydgaled]

half of the gap would be better served with an improved Sherpa service and the other part is a gap because the local population of sheep/buffalo don't catch buses

Sheep and buffalo don't catch buses, but are there people who want to be able to cross that sheep-infested gap to get to somewhere on the other side? I don't know that part of Wales to answer that question, but an example from my patch is Cardigan to Haverfordwest. After Eglwyswrw there's about 15 miles populated by little other than sheep. As a result, there is no reasonable bus service between Cardigan and Haverfordwest - compared to driving the T5 via Fishguard takes forever. Sometimes, you just need to cross vast expanses of nothingness to get somewhere; the Far North and West Highland railway lines in Scotland do this and I think long-distance bus services sometimes need to do the same sort of thing. If there is a demand to cross the gap, maybe an improved Sherpa service at that end connecting with a TrawsCymru / TrawsCymru Connect service that goes further at the east end is the answer?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sheep and buffalo don't catch buses, but are there people who want to be able to cross that sheep-infested gap to get to somewhere on the other side? I don't know that part of Wales to answer that question, but an example from my patch is Cardigan to Haverfordwest. After Eglwyswrw there's about 15 miles populated by little other than sheep. As a result, there is no reasonable bus service between Cardigan and Haverfordwest - compared to driving the T5 via Fishguard takes forever. Sometimes, you just need to cross vast expanses of nothingness to get somewhere; the Far North and West Highland railway lines in Scotland do this and I think long-distance bus services sometimes need to do the same sort of thing. If there is a demand to cross the gap, maybe an improved Sherpa service at that end connecting with a TrawsCymru / TrawsCymru Connect service that goes further at the east end is the answer?

That works when you have two places that you need to traverse so Far North links Thurso and Wick with Inverness, or West Highland to Fort William and Skye to the rest of Scotland.

In this instance, you have no population centre (Corwen?) and even if you extended to Wrexham or Oswestry, I would question the demand. Going off your example, is there any need for a Cardigan to Haverfordwest service? Remember, travel patterns are generally well established which is why converting and upgrading existing tendered services to TC makes sense but arbitrarily joining up dots is not a sensible approach.

 

[burns20]

Looking outside the box would a different service pattern work

Llandudno-Betws-Llangollen every 2 hours
Llandudno-Betws-Llanberis every 2 hours
Blaenau-Betws-Llanberis every 2 hours

All timed to connect at Betws improving journey opportunities

OK Blaenau folk now have to change to reach Llandudno but with no time penalty

Is an improved rail service in the offing post 2023?

 

[Rhydgaled]

In this instance, you have no population centre (Corwen?) and even if you extended to Wrexham or Oswestry, I would question the demand. Going off your example, is there any need for a Cardigan to Haverfordwest service? Remember, travel patterns are generally well established

So, how do you tell if there is an established travel pattern on a given route? I've no idea if there is an existing flow of (car) traffic between Betws and Wrexham/Oswestry. Between Cardigan and Haverfordwest, the B4329 is far from completely empty although again I don't know if that equates to an established regular travel pattern.

Being the county town of Pembrokeshire (and much bigger than Ceredigion's county town in Aberaeron) I'd hazard a guess that travel to Haverfordwest is quite important for Cardigan, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the longer journey to Carmarthen or Aberystwyth wins out for Cardigan residents?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, how do you tell if there is an established travel pattern on a given route? I've no idea if there is an existing flow of (car) traffic between Betws and Wrexham/Oswestry.

It's a bit hard to tell. There is lots of traffic along that bit of the A5 nominally between Oswestry and Betws, but what is important to know about that is that most of it (in terms of the tourist traffic) has come from Birmingham or even further beyond, as M1-M6-M54-A5 is the sensible way to Snowdonia from most of the South East. I do wonder if someone saw how busy that bit of the A5 gets and made some (incorrect) assumptions.

 

[krus_aragon]

Looking outside the box would a different service pattern work

Llandudno-Betws-Llangollen every 2 hours
Llandudno-Betws-Llanberis every 2 hours
Blaenau-Betws-Llanberis every 2 hours

All timed to connect at Betws improving journey opportunities

OK Blaenau folk now have to change to reach Llandudno but with no time penalty

Is an improved rail service in the offing post 2023?

That's an interesting idea. Llandudno services combining to give an hourly frequency? (likewise Llanberis?) I'm not sure that the Llanberis services would fit well under the TrawsCymru label, though. Llandudno's role as a tourist resort could serve as a good railhead (bushead?) for day trips into Snowdonia.

Other than improved rolling stock come 2023, there's no sniff of a frequency improvement for the Conwy Valley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's an interesting idea. Llandudno services combining to give an hourly frequency? (likewise Llanberis?) I'm not sure that the Llanberis services would fit well under the TrawsCymru label, though.

I'd operate something like that under the Snowdon Sherpa brand, not Traws, though you might want to make Sherpa a sub-brand of Traws and apply the quality requirements to it?

Other than improved rolling stock come 2023, there's no sniff of a frequency improvement for the Conwy Valley.

Though there is a plan to run electric Traws buses alongside it - the ideal there is an hourly pattern with every third one a train with a single fare system on both, but I somehow suspect that won't happen because the UK seems terminally incapable of proper integration.

 

[krus_aragon]

Though there is a plan to run electric Traws buses alongside it - the ideal there is an hourly pattern with every third one a train with a single fare system on both, but I somehow suspect that won't happen because the UK seems terminally incapable of proper integration.

I wonder how Gwynedd Council managed to do that in the 90s(?), when it seems so impossible these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how Gwynedd Council managed to do that in the 90s(?), when it seems so impossible these days.

I knocked around there a fair bit on North and Mid Wales Day Rangers in the 90s, and it wasn't really. For instance, while that Ranger had bus validity it tended to get refused in that typical "that's not a bus ticket innit mate*" manner more times than not. So it was theoretical, really. Maybe better than now but certainly not up to the kind of level I would say is needed to get the best out of an infrequent rural network.

* nid tocyn bws mo hynny, innit mate?

 

[krus_aragon]

I knocked around there a fair bit on North and Mid Wales Day Rangers in the 90s, and it wasn't really. For instance, while that Ranger had bus validity it tended to get refused in that typical "that's not a bus ticket innit mate*" manner more times than not. So it was theoretical, really. Maybe better than now but certainly not up to the kind of level I would say is needed to get the best out of an infrequent rural network.

* nid tocyn bws mo hynny, innit mate?

I was thinking specifically of the inter-available tickets for the Conwy Valley, rather than broader Ranger tickets. But we're ranging off-topic now. :/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So, how do you tell if there is an established travel pattern on a given route? I've no idea if there is an existing flow of (car) traffic between Betws and Wrexham/Oswestry. Between Cardigan and Haverfordwest, the B4329 is far from completely empty although again I don't know if that equates to an established regular travel pattern.

Being the county town of Pembrokeshire (and much bigger than Ceredigion's county town in Aberaeron) I'd hazard a guess that travel to Haverfordwest is quite important for Cardigan, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the longer journey to Carmarthen or Aberystwyth wins out for Cardigan residents?

It's a bit hard to tell. There is lots of traffic along that bit of the A5 nominally between Oswestry and Betws, but what is important to know about that is that most of it (in terms of the tourist traffic) has come from Birmingham or even further beyond, as M1-M6-M54-A5 is the sensible way to Snowdonia from most of the South East. I do wonder if someone saw how busy that bit of the A5 gets and made some (incorrect) assumptions.

Travel patterns are generally formed by natural geography, so generally from along the coast, or up valleys/along rivers. What you don't tend to see that run at right angles to valleys etc so heading straight across the Presceli Hills doesn't seem likely. Same with a route that traverses open land from Corwen as opposed to following the River Dee.

I have travelled the A5 many a time, and yes, there are plenty of cars on that stretch of road. Often with canoes on the roof or mountain bikes on the back.

There many things that can be done to improve services in Snowdonia, and indeed, some opportunities to improve TrawsCymru. I just think there are better things to do with the money that will be spent on the T10.

 

[carlberry]

So, how do you tell if there is an established travel pattern on a given route? I've no idea if there is an existing flow of (car) traffic between Betws and Wrexham/Oswestry.

The Betws - Corwen part of the route hasn't seen any large population or additional commercial/employment opportunities; it has seen huge growth in tourism however it's mostly to get to Snowdonia or Llangollen. Therefore a useful indication is what the route could support back before bus usage declined. In 1968 Crosville did operate an express service on the route all the way from Liverpool however it was summer weekends only. Also in 1968 Corwen - Betws - Llanrwst operated a few times a day (the symbols about several journeys mean they only operated on Market day. By 1976 the express service had become the 867 as part of National Express and would be withdrawn during the 1980s, the bus service had reduced to a few days a week and, I believe, a reduced version of that was what still ran until fairly recently. So the T10 is going to provide the best service the area has had, certainly since the early 1960s, and possibly ever.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Betws - Corwen part of the route hasn't seen any large population or additional commercial/employment opportunities; it has seen huge growth in tourism however it's mostly to get to Snowdonia or Llangollen. Therefore a useful indication is what the route could support back before bus usage declined. In 1968 Crosville did operate an express service on the route all the way from Liverpool however it was summer weekends only. Also in 1968 Corwen - Betws - Llanrwst operated a few times a day (the symbols about several journeys mean they only operated on Market day. By 1976 the express service had become the 867 as part of National Express and would be withdrawn during the 1980s, the bus service had reduced to a few days a week and, I believe, a reduced version of that was what still ran until fairly recently. So the T10 is going to provide the best service the area has had, certainly since the early 1960s, and possibly ever.

Working on that basis, I'm looking forward to some "Bat Guano Crazy" idea to have a Lampeter - Llandovery - Trecastle - Brecon service to provide missing links that have been absent for the last X years and that no one knew was missing, and there's no research to determine that there is any such demand!!

Mind you, interesting timetables. Looks like it was a round trip operated by Caernarfon depot on a Saturday but on a Friday and Sunday, there was a meeting of coaches in Corwen and a swap of drivers, possibly with Caernarfon gaining a Liverpool coach on a Friday and returning in on a Sunday, and same with Liverpool depot.

 

[carlberry]

Working on that basis, I'm looking forward to some "Bat Guano Crazy" idea to have a Lampeter - Llandovery - Trecastle - Brecon service to provide missing links that have been absent for the last X years and that no one knew was missing, and there's no research to determine that there is any such demand!!

Mind you, interesting timetables. Looks like it was a round trip operated by Caernarfon depot on a Saturday but on a Friday and Sunday, there was a meeting of coaches in Corwen and a swap of drivers, possibly with Caernarfon gaining a Liverpool coach on a Friday and returning in on a Sunday, and same with Liverpool depot.

I managed to find an even older one! 22nd June 1952 so at the time of the peak in bus travel and the route had three journeys (one not daily during winter) plus two express journeys (one during winter) plus some shorts at the Corwen end of the route. So the T10 is by far the best service the area has ever had.

 

[johntrawscymru]

the Traws network is a Welsh Assembly subsidised long distance bus network

Quite right . Trawscymru (Across Wales) was supposed to link the major towns and cities of Wales

Corwen has a population of 2326, strange place to terminate a long distance bus route!

Correct . Just like Barmouth the termination of the T3 which has a population of 2522). Just like Machynleth the termination of the T12 which has a population of 2235. Barmouth has the single attraction of a seaside location whilst Machynleth has no such attraction other than the depot of the T12 service provider.

Stealing revenue from commercial routes makes them less viable

The takeover of multiple local bus routes like the T11 and T12 are perfect examples of the WG bumping up passenger numbers on the Trawscymru Network the easy way by stealing passengers. They are not long distance bus routes. The T11 is ridiculous when the T5 links the same 2 destinations in a third of the time. The T12 is ridiculous with a combination of 3 local services taking 3.5 hours to cover the route when a car would take 1.5 hours.

We've suggested a T1C to Aberystwyth in the morning but so far I don't think tfw been.interested

There's no logical reason to my mind why the T1C shouldn't operate daily in both directions.

It was simply to replace the 701 on a like for like basis

The 701 had 2 services per day and the T1C has only one. The T1C route Aberystwyth to Cardiff is a distance of 97.8 miles whereas the T4 Newtown to Cardiff route is 97.6 miles. You have to ask the question why Cardiff with a population of 481,082 has five T4 Trawscymru services going Northwards to Newtown with a population of 11,357 and yet there are no T1C services Northwards from Cardiff to Aberystwyth with a population of 18,749. The distance is the same, the population of Aberystwyth is approximately double that of Newtown when all 9835 University students are in residence. In addition to having a University, Aberystwyth has Welsh Government and County Council Offices, The National Library of Wales ( 95,133 visitors per annum ), National Broadcast Archive, Bronglais Hospital (Major hospital 200 beds with major trauma A and E) , Vale of Rheidol steam railway, and has many coastal static caravan sites with owners predominantly from South Wales and the Midlands. You have to ask the question why the 481,082 population of Cardiff want 5 Trawscymru services to Newtown, ( when Newtown has none of the facilities available in Aberystwyth), and yet the 481,082 population want no services to Aberystwyth. The excuse of competition with rail does not wash as the T4 does actually compete with a rail journey from Cardiff to Newtown via Shrewsbury which is approx the same time as the bus. The train Cardiff to Newtown takes just over 3 hours and the train Cardiff to Aberystwyth takes 4.5 hours . The T4 is competing with the train whereas the T1C is not as the rail line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth was closed. Aberystwyth residents can visit Cardiff for a day (4 hours in Cardiff) or go for a weekend staying overnight returning on Sunday evening. The 481,082 population of Cardiff cannot visit Aberystwyth for a day or go for a weekend staying overnight. There is every logical reason for having T1C services departing from Cardiff to Aberystwyth. It is not a logical argument to say no services Northwards has been the situation in the past therefore no services Northwards is the solution for the future. I understand the original Trawscambria service did run Northwards as Carwyn said in the Welsh Assembly that he used it from Bridgend when he was a student in Aberystwyth. Why do we have seven T3 services per day from Wrexham (population 136,126) to the seaside at Barmouth (population 2522) and no T!C services from Cardiff (population 481,082) to to the seaside at Aberystwyth (population 18,749). It is not logical when Trawscymru (Across Wales) was supposed to link the major towns and cities of Wales . The WG logic with both the T1C, the T1 and the T2 is that efficient connections on public transport between South and North Wales along the West coast is not necessary, which is why traffic volumes along the A487 are so high. Traffic volumes are key to deciding where Trawscymru bus routes should be employed and where connections are to be made. I would be very interested to see a comparison of the traffic volumes Machynlleth to Caersws on the A470 and A489 with traffic volumes Aberystwyth to Caersws on the A44 and A470. Machynlleth to Caersws is not very busy whereas Aberystwyth to Caersws is very busy . The T12 should be operating as a direct long distance service between Aberystwyth and Wrexham via Llanidloes, Newtown, Welshpool and Oswestry with no meandering diversions off along local bus routes. Remember the Bevan recommendations on diversions and the route of the T3 ?

 

[daodao]

Quite right . Trawscymru (Across Wales) was supposed to link the major towns and cities of Wales


Correct . Just like Barmouth the termination of the T3 which has a population of 2522). Just like Machynleth the termination of the T12 which has a population of 2235. Barmouth has the single attraction of a seaside location whilst Machynleth has no such attraction other than the depot of the T12 service provider.



The takeover of multiple local bus routes like the T11 and T12 are perfect examples of the WG bumping up passenger numbers on the Trawscymru Network the easy way by stealing passengers. They are not long distance bus routes. The T11 is ridiculous when the T5 links the same 2 destinations in a third of the time. The T12 is ridiculous with a combination of 3 local services taking 3.5 hours to cover the route when a car would take 1.5 hours.







The 701 had 2 services per day and the T1C has only one. The T1C route Aberystwyth to Cardiff is a distance of 97.8 miles whereas the T4 Newtown to Cardiff route is 97.6 miles. You have to ask the question why Cardiff with a population of 481,082 has five T4 Trawscymru services going Northwards to Newtown with a population of 11,357 and yet there are no T1C services Northwards from Cardiff to Aberystwyth with a population of 18,749. The distance is the same, the population of Aberystwyth is approximately double that of Newtown when all 9835 University students are in residence. In addition to having a University, Aberystwyth has Welsh Government and County Council Offices, The National Library of Wales ( 95,133 visitors per annum ), National Broadcast Archive, Bronglais Hospital (Major hospital 200 beds with major trauma A and E) , Vale of Rheidol steam railway, and has many coastal static caravan sites with owners predominantly from South Wales and the Midlands. You have to ask the question why the 481,082 population of Cardiff want 5 Trawscymru services to Newtown, ( when Newtown has none of the facilities available in Aberystwyth), and yet the 481,082 population want no services to Aberystwyth. The excuse of competition with rail does not wash as the T4 does actually compete with a rail journey from Cardiff to Newtown via Shrewsbury which is approx the same time as the bus. The train Cardiff to Newtown takes just over 3 hours and the train Cardiff to Aberystwyth takes 4.5 hours . The T4 is competing with the train whereas the T1C is not as the rail line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth was closed. Aberystwyth residents can visit Cardiff for a day (4 hours in Cardiff) or go for a weekend staying overnight returning on Sunday evening. The 481,082 population of Cardiff cannot visit Aberystwyth for a day or go for a weekend staying overnight. There is every logical reason for having T1C services departing from Cardiff to Aberystwyth. It is not a logical argument to say no services Northwards has been the situation in the past therefore no services Northwards is the solution for the future. I understand the original Trawscambria service did run Northwards as Carwyn said in the Welsh Assembly that he used it from Bridgend when he was a student in Aberystwyth. Why do we have seven T3 services per day from Wrexham (population 136,126) to the seaside at Barmouth (population 2522) and no T!C services from Cardiff (population 481,082) to to the seaside at Aberystwyth (population 18,749). It is not logical when Trawscymru (Across Wales) was supposed to link the major towns and cities of Wales . The WG logic with both the T1C, the T1 and the T2 is that efficient connections on public transport between South and North Wales along the West coast is not necessary, which is why traffic volumes along the A487 are so high. Traffic volumes are key to deciding where Trawscymru bus routes should be employed and where connections are to be made. I would be very interested to see a comparison of the traffic volumes Machynlleth to Caersws on the A470 and A489 with traffic volumes Aberystwyth to Caersws on the A44 and A470. Machynlleth to Caersws is not very busy whereas Aberystwyth to Caersws is very busy . The T12 should be operating as a direct long distance service between Aberystwyth and Wrexham via Llanidloes, Newtown, Welshpool and Oswestry with no meandering diversions off along local bus routes. Remember the Bevan recommendations on diversions and the route of the T3 ?

There is a frequent regular bus service (TrawsCymru T1) from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen (hourly Mon-Stat, 4 journeys on Sundays), calling at Carmarthen railway station for connections with direct trains to Cardiff. This is presumably the main recommended way to travel from Aberystwyth to Cardiff by public transport.

 

[Markdvdman]

Carmarthen to Cardiff on rail is FAR more expensive than the T1C. You can get cheap advance tickets but walk on fares - it is a completely different ball game!

 

[Dai Corner]

Carmarthen to Cardiff on rail is FAR more expensive than the T1C. You can get cheap advance tickets but walk on fares - it is a completely different ball game!

If you want to travel more cheaply, try the First Cymru X11 Carmarthen-Swansea and X10 Swansea-Cardiff. Or if there are social or political reasons why a ridiculously cheap fare should be available between Aberystwyth and Cardiff the Welsh Government could introduce a combined bus and train one.

 

[johntrawscymru]

There is a frequent regular bus service (TrawsCymru T1) from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen (hourly Mon-Stat, 4 journeys on Sundays), calling at Carmarthen railway station for connections with direct trains to Cardiff. This is presumably the main recommended way to travel from Aberystwyth to Cardiff by public transport.

It is not the main recommended way to travel from Aberystwyth to Cardiff by public transport.

Advice is “”There are 3 ways to get from Cardiff to Aberystwyth by bus, train or car. The bus option is the T1C taking 3.5 hours. There is no rail Cardiff to Carmarthen/T1 Carmarthen to Aberystwyth advice as it is not a practical option because of the long journey time/cost..

Trainline website quotes “”It takes an average of 5h 52m to travel from Cardiff Queen Street to Aberystwyth by train, over a distance of around 75 miles (121 km). There are normally 11 trains per day travelling from Cardiff Queen Street to Aberystwyth and tickets for this journey start from £21.50 when you book in advance.””

The option of train plus T1 would take 4 hours 50 minutes (1 hour faster than the train) with a change in Carmarthen, but would be more expensive than direct travel by train.

Cardiff to Carmarthen by train is 2 hrs 5 minutes Average wait time for the T1 to Aberystwyth in Carmarthen is 25 minutes T1 to Aberystwyth journey is 2 hours 20 minutes. Total 4 hours 50 minutes. T1C takes 3.5 hours.

I would suggest that the WG should provide Northbound journeys on the T1C as the public transport options between Cardiff and Aberystwyth are not adequate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2021 ==

If you want to travel more cheaply, try the First Cymru X11 Carmarthen-Swansea and X10 Swansea-Cardiff. Or if there are social or political reasons why a ridiculously cheap fare should be available between Aberystwyth and Cardiff the Welsh Government could introduce a combined bus and train one.

Yes I have used that option plus T1S from Carmarthen to Swansea, but again it takes such an incredible amount of time. OK if you want to travel all day and not return the same day then fine. Are we really saying that passengers travelling 75 miles between Cardiff and Aberystwyth by bus cannot return the same day by bus on the same route.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The takeover of multiple local bus routes like the T11 and T12 are perfect examples of the WG bumping up passenger numbers on the Trawscymru Network the easy way by stealing passengers. They are not long distance bus routes. The T11 is ridiculous when the T5 links the same 2 destinations in a third of the time. The T12 is ridiculous with a combination of 3 local services taking 3.5 hours to cover the route when a car would take 1.5 hours.

The T11 and T12 are at least branded as TrawsCymruConnect, rather than just TrawsCymru. I think it's fair enough that the Welsh Government would want to highlight the fact that they are funding the service, but I think they need more consistency regarding what constitutes a TrawsCymru route versus TrawsCymruConnect and a clearer seperation between the two. For example the 460 and X43 retain their old service numbers while the T11 has been renumbered as if it was a TrawsCymru route. Personally, I think TrawsCymruConnect (that really needs a shorter name, perhaps TrawsConnect as I've heard some drivers call it) should use the traditional route numbers and the most of the current services should be under the 'Connect' brand rather than TrawsCymru. That would leave a small number of services (possibly just the T1C to start with, depending on whether TrawsCymru wants to be an express coach network or a long-distance bus network - if it's going to try to be both then really the long-distance trains should have been branded TrawsCymru as well instead of TfW) under the TrawsCymru banner with the T prefixes (I still prefer the original, never implemented, plan of using TC prefixes, which of course would limit it to 10 routes numbered TC0 to TC9).

The T4 is competing with the train whereas the T1C is not as the rail line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth was closed.

The rail lines between Newtown and Brecon/Merthyr were also closed. Also, the T1C is a long-distance express coach while the T4 (in common with other TrawsCymru routes) is a long-distance local bus. They are two different things; some could argue that Cardiff-Aberystwyth is better served than Cardiff-Newtown for this reason (because Cardiff-Aberystwyth has 1 express coach per day and Cardiff-Newtown has none).

 

[Markdvdman]

The T11 and T12 are at least branded as TrawsCymruConnect, rather than just TrawsCymru. I think it's fair enough that the Welsh Government would want to highlight the fact that they are funding the service, but I think they need more consistency regarding what constitutes a TrawsCymru route versus TrawsCymruConnect and a clearer seperation between the two. For example the 460 and X43 retain their old service numbers while the T11 has been renumbered as if it was a TrawsCymru route. Personally, I think TrawsCymruConnect (that really needs a shorter name, perhaps TrawsConnect as I've heard some drivers call it) should use the traditional route numbers and the most of the current services should be under the 'Connect' brand rather than TrawsCymru. That would leave a small number of services (possibly just the T1C to start with, depending on whether TrawsCymru wants to be an express coach network or a long-distance bus network - if it's going to try to be both then really the long-distance trains should have been branded TrawsCymru as well instead of TfW) under the TrawsCymru banner with the T prefixes (I still prefer the original, never implemented, plan of using TC prefixes, which of course would limit it to 10 routes numbered TC0 to TC9).


The rail lines between Newtown and Brecon/Merthyr were also closed. Also, the T1C is a long-distance express coach while the T4 (in common with other TrawsCymru routes) is a long-distance local bus. They are two different things; some could argue that Cardiff-Aberystwyth is better served than Cardiff-Newtown for this reason (because Cardiff-Aberystwyth has 1 express coach per day and Cardiff-Newtown has none).

That is a valid point coach v bus. HOWEVER, the coach they use on the T1C service is very old school! It does not even have USB ports for charging phones. In this day and age for a 3.5hr journey (or 7hrs for return) that is unforgiveable! The T4 has them and for a bus is very decent! It is not simply Coach v Bus in 2021!
At least National Express have coaches with USB ports or plugs for chargers. So I am baffled as to how the T1C coach was conceptualised on the basis of old school attitudes?

 

[johntrawscymru]

some could argue that Cardiff-Aberystwyth is better served than Cardiff-Newtown for this reason (because Cardiff-Aberystwyth has 1 express coach per day and Cardiff-Newtown has none).

It is possible to go from Cardiff to Newtown and return the same day. The same is not true of Cardiff to Aberystwyth. There are 5 services per day from Cardiff to Newtown and one service per day from Cardiff to Aberystwyth. How can there be an argument that Cardiff-Aberystwyth is better served than Cardiff-Newtown ?

It does not even have USB ports for charging phones. In this day and age for a 3.5hr journey (or 7hrs for return) that is unforgiveable! The T4 has them and for a bus is very decent! It is not simply Coach v Bus in 2021!

Cardiff-Newtown is better served than Cardiff-Aberystwyth in terms of USB port provision. I would take the Cardiff-Newtown timetable for the Cardiff-Aberystwyth route using the same buses Cardiff-Newtown without the USB port provision. The whole point of Trawscymru was to link the major towns and cities. Plush seats, on board toilets and USB ports are nice extras but passengers just need to get from A to B with an adequate timetable. The T1C timetable Cardiff-Aberystwyth is not adequate.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is possible to go from Cardiff to Newtown and return the same day. The same is not true of Cardiff to Aberystwyth. There are 5 services per day from Cardiff to Newtown and one service per day from Cardiff to Aberystwyth. How can there be an argument that Cardiff-Aberystwyth is better served than Cardiff-Newtown ?

I said "some could argue" not that I was arguing that. Perhaps playing devil's advocate is a good description of what I was trying to do there. Maybe what I should have said was that "Cardiff-Aberystwyth is better served by coach than Cardiff-Newtown". While it is possible to go from Cardiff to Newtown and return the same day on the T4, I think you would get less than two and a half hours in Newtown.

Cardiff-Newtown is better served than Cardiff-Aberystwyth in terms of USB port provision. I would take the Cardiff-Newtown timetable for the Cardiff-Aberystwyth route using the same buses Cardiff-Newtown without the USB port provision. The whole point of Trawscymru was to link the major towns and cities. Plush seats, on board toilets and USB ports are nice extras but passengers just need to get from A to B with an adequate timetable. The T1C timetable Cardiff-Aberystwyth is not adequate.

The interior specification (which I have no knowlegdge of in the context of the T1C and only out-of-date knowledge of for the T4) is only one part of the question. Apart perhaps from the T9, isn't the T1C the only express/limited-stop service on the TrawsCymru network? If so, it's a different kind of service even if normal buses were used on it.

On a slightly different matter, but playing devil's advocate again perhaps, given the length of the journey, and the fact I cannot see how an on-board toilet could be provided/used (no space for water and sewage tanks on a low-floor bus and no standing allowed on a coach), I would suggest that the 5 services per day from Cardiff to Newtown and one service per day from Cardiff to Aberystwyth are both of fairly limited use. While I can probably go four hours without a toilet if I don't drink anything, I suspect there are many who would welcome the opportunity to make use of fixed toilet facilities during an interchange. In that case an hourly (or better) bus service (if one exists, I've no idea what is provided) between Cardiff and Carmarthen with 7-15 minutes at Carmarthen rail/bus station (provided the waiting room and toilets are open at the time) before joining the hourly T1 to Carmarthen could be seen by some as a better service than the T4 with two hours to wait for the next bus if you need to get off to use the loo at some point. With an hourly service, you would potentially have 10 journey opportunities per day compared to the 5 on the T4.