Is it time to scrap operator specific tickets when Great British Railways begins?

[Djgr]

If we are ever seriously going to start to tackle the over-complexity (anarchy) of fares then TOC only tickets need to be binned.

 

[Ianno87]

I envisage TOC specific fares will largely be withdrawn and replaced by fixed train Advances, purchasable up until departure time.

 

[JonathanH]

I envisage TOC specific fares will largely be withdrawn and replaced by fixed train Advances, purchasable up until departure time.

If our objective is to reduce aggravation for staff and complexity for passengers that doesn't really do it. I'm sure that if the fare for a single from London to Manchester was £50 off-peak single and £100 peak single and that was the only possible fare, double for first class, there would be far fewer complaints about complexity and a much easier life for the traincrew.

 

[unlevel42]

So your solution is an unattractive commute on a packed fast train, or an unattractive torturously slow commute on a crowded all-stations train.

The solution is extra capacity on the fast trains. Aren’t there now an increased number of 6-car TPE trains on the route?

You say all-stations - they are not.
You say crowded - they are not and they would not be. They are attracting people who are happy to go on a slower train with a seat for less and in the process reducing the crush on the EMT and TPE which still ran/run single sets despite the publicity.

 

[Ianno87]

If our objective is to reduce aggravation for staff and complexity for passengers that doesn't really do it. I'm sure that if the fare for a single from London to Manchester was £50 off-peak single and £100 peak single and that was the only possible fare, double for first class, there would be far fewer complaints about complexity and a much easier life for the traincrew.

There's nothing remotely complex about walking up to a ticket machine at Euston, selecting the 10:20 to Manchester (or the 1040 if it's cheaper), being quoted a fare, buying it, and then boarding the train. Far less bamboozling than the 20-odd fares displayed today.

Does exactly what it says on the tin. Basically how it's done in many European countries, plus in the UK on LNER's TVMs.

More passengers are more likely to whack open their phone App on the way to the station these days anyway.

 

[oddiesjack]

The idea of you misreading a "...Park and Ride at New Mills Central..." instead of "...around a new P&R station at New Mills", didn't actually make me laugh out loud. I've made mistakes like that myself.
From my nearly 50 experience of New Mills Central (and 35 years since the Chord at Hazel Grove!) and its history I know it does not have to be there anymore. On closure of the Hayfield branch it should have been re-sited to between the Coop and South Junction and the trains from terminating there or in the former bays at Chinley. This would have provided an interchange.

Cyclists on trains? Hikers on commuter trains? I was thinking more about the permanent residents not the seasonal visitor.

An even better location for an Even Newer Mills Central would have been between Church Road Bridge and Hyde Road Bridge, where Stafford's coal yard (was rail-connected) used to be, so room for a station and some car parking with level access from Hyde Bank Road. Easy access to the bus stop by the Queens, too which would be useful for people from Birch Vale and Hayfield, who like me and my family were regular users of the Hayfield branch.

 

[Hadders]

The problem with offering more Advance tickets is that they will be quota controlled and guess what the price will be on a busy day a few minutes before departure.

 

[Ianno87]

The problem with offering more Advance tickets is that they will be quota controlled and guess what the price will be on a busy day a few minutes before departure.

The price would logically be the Any Permitted walk up price.

Or you select a later train that still has availability and grab a coffee/pint.

 

[Hadders]

The price would logically be the Any Permitted walk up price.

Or you select a later train that still has availability and grab a coffee/pint.

So passengers pay more and lose flexibility. Not exactly passenger friendly.

 

[Ianno87]

So passengers pay more and lose flexibility. Not exactly passenger friendly.

The minority of passengers who want to travel on the cheap train and rock up with no tickets a few minutes before departure and desperately have to travel immediately lose out, yes.

In these days of Apps and technology, grab the Advance on the way to the station as soon as you know what train you want to be on.

 

[yorkie]

The overall result is that the cheaper fares will disappear. Those who think simplification will save them money may find that it's not like that. Similar to those who called for flexi season tickets thinking they would get a much better deal and were then disappointed.

I agree.

I oppose any proposals which would result in the abolition of good value fares.

 

[Hadders]

The minority of passengers who want to travel on the cheap train and rock up with no tickets a few minutes before departure and desperately have to travel immediately lose out, yes.

In these days of Apps and technology, grab the Advance on the way to the station as soon as you know what train you want to be on.

Many people I know make a late decision to have a day out, go to the coast, visit friends etc. Are you really saying they will have to plan weeks ahead to obtain good value fares.

 

[PeterC]

Many people I know make a late decision to have a day out, go to the coast, visit friends etc. Are you really saying they will have to plan weeks ahead to obtain good value fares.

I generally make such decisions at 3 days notice which is as far as you can really rely on the weather forecast. If a trip is to be by rail I look at the off peak day return fare to give me flexibility for the return journey.

If you are going to keep to levels of fare on the same route, depending on the trains' calling patterns then everyting stays "confusing" for the passenger. It doesn't matter who runs the trains but the different services will require distinct branding. Tickets will simply become "sector" specific rather than operator specifc. Some changes on ticketing regulations may be needed so that we don't get people claiming that their "regional" ticket is valid on "inter city" just because Great British Railway have contracted the same company to run both between the stations in question.

 

[87 027]

I have been making lots of journeys between London and the North West England suburbs over the last 6 months. Initially during lockdown I used my car exclusively, the M1 and M6 being relatively quiet and with an overall doorstep-to-doorstep travel time similar to the best of rail (a fraction under 4 hours). Plus I didn't have to take the risk of sharing a metal cabin with anyone else and quick 10-minute leg stretch at Watford Gap services was good for a short break en route.

Once the vaccinations started rolling out I switched to doing the journey by train, and there were some very competitive fares on Avanti which I made use of on a number of occasions. Then with late releases of tickets Avanti wasn't so competitive any more so I changed to using a combination of London North Western and Northern as a trade-off between price and journey time. But now, even fares on TrainSplit are at a substantial premium over the price of a tank of diesel in my car and for a longer travel time as well. So I have reverted to driving.

I really would like rail to be the best option taking into account overall cost and and travel time. I am disappointed by my recent experience that even when I am prepared to commit to specific rail services, it is still quicker and cheaper by quite some margin (over 30%) to drive.

 

[bramling]

The minority of passengers who want to travel on the cheap train and rock up with no tickets a few minutes before departure and desperately have to travel immediately lose out, yes.

In these days of Apps and technology, grab the Advance on the way to the station as soon as you know what train you want to be on.

Oh dear, got stuck in traffic, missed our booked train, next time we'll use the car all the way.

 

[NoRoute]

At root the problem is bad design with the lack of a clear, easy to recognise link between the ticket, the operator and the train.

If you got bright red ticket, which clearly said "You can only use this on red trains, you cannot use it on other trains" and every train was painted a specific colour according to its operator, then when a blue painted train pulls into the station it isn't difficult to understand you need to wait for your red train to arrive.

But that basic design task of establishing a clear unambiguous link between the ticket, the operator and the train which rolls into the station isn't done very well. It has to be immediately obvious that the ticket is for a specific operator, it has to be obvious while waiting for a train which operator is due to arrive and when a train does roll up, exactly which operator it is.

As an example, think of a gift voucher from shop, they have the colours, logo and branding of the shop they can be used in, and that shop uses the same colours and logo linking the two. Now look at a typical railway ticket, there's no colours or logo from the operator, not even a monochrome logo, often the text used for the operator's name is shortened or condensed to fit in the space, so you need to decipher it, the design and layout is really bad.

It's not surprising passengers get confused.

 

[A0]

Having witnessed several occasions today of passengers having an operator specific ticket and the time and effort it takes for the train manager to explain that the ticket isn't valid I was wondering whether these tickets will or should be part of the future of our railways?

I feel so sorry for those who have to check tickets for the arguments that they have to have over tickets and I admire their patience.

No. You can't legislate for stupidity. Tickets are clearly marked when they are only valid on one operator. These are the kind of people who would try to use a Tesco Clubcard voucher in Morrisons.

 

[NoRoute]

No. You can't legislate for stupidity. Tickets are clearly marked when they are only valid on one operator. These are the kind of people who would try to use a Tesco Clubcard voucher in Morrisons.

But the example is poor, nobody tries to use Morrisons vouchers in Tesco's because the vouchers have the supermarket's name and logo in large multicoloured print, you can't miss it. And the supermarket has its logo and branding on massive signs at the store entrance and on boards everywhere you look.

Standard train tickets have no branding, or logos and have a little bit of badly printed and often abbreviated text on which operator to use. Branding ofnthe trains is hit and miss.

The two situations aren't comparable.

 

[A0]

But the example is poor, nobody tries to use Morrisons vouchers in Tesco's because the vouchers have the supermarket's name and logo in large multicoloured print, you can't miss it. And the supermarket has its logo and branding on massive signs at the store entrance and on boards everywhere you look.

Standard train tickets have no branding, or logos and have a little bit of badly printed and often abbreviated text on which operator to use. Branding ofnthe trains is hit and miss.

The two situations aren't comparable.

I disagree - the ticket clearly states at the bottom if there's an operator or time restriction. Reality is people try buying the cheapest ticket then get on whatever train they like. They're either dishonest and trying it on or are stupid for not reading what their ticket says. It's due to such people in society that a jar of peanut butter has to state "contains nuts".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==

A great idea in principle, especially on short routes like Stockport to Manchester or Stevenage to London.

It would however the removal of operator specific fares would result in huge fare increases for many passengers.

With no price differential between, for example, the slower West Midlands Trains service and faster Avanti service between London and Birmingham the Avanti trains would quickly become over crowded.

There will always be ticketing issues on trains, if it’s not invalid operators it’ll be a dispute over whether an off peak ticket is valid, or someone sat in 1st class with a standard class ticket. There is always going to be some complication with over 2,500 stations involved…

But to use your Stevenage - London example, that predates privatisation as there were tickets which were valid on Inter City and not valid on Inter City along with pick up / set down only stops on the IC services which served Stevenage, so the current situation is a development of that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree - the ticket clearly states at the bottom if there's an operator or time restriction. Reality is people try buying the cheapest ticket then get on whatever train they like. They're either dishonest and trying it on or are stupid for not reading what their ticket says. It's due to such people in society that a jar of peanut butter has to state "contains nuts".

Always good when a poor example adds to a poor argument (which it is - ticketing is not clear at all). The reason you get MAY contain nuts on peanut packets is in fact that peanuts are not nuts but a type of bean (legume), and they may contain nuts because they are made in factories that process things that ARE nuts.

 

[Journeyman]

Far less flexibility for passengers though…

Here we go, slagging off advances again. Not everyone needs, or wants to pay for, flexibility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2021 ==

If our objective is to reduce aggravation for staff and complexity for passengers that doesn't really do it. I'm sure that if the fare for a single from London to Manchester was £50 off-peak single and £100 peak single and that was the only possible fare, double for first class, there would be far fewer complaints about complexity and a much easier life for the traincrew.

There would also be far more cases of some trains being massively overcrowded, and others empty.

 

[camflyer]

I can see TOC specific fares being removed as part of fares simplification along with a number of other things that can save people money.

The overall result is that the cheaper fares will disappear. Those who think simplification will save them money may find that it's not like that. Similar to those who called for flexi season tickets thinking they would get a much better deal and were then disappointed.

Indeed. People always complain about complicated pricing structures and call for simplification but when that leads to some prices inevitably going up then people always complain.

In short, whatever you do people will always complain.

 

[A0]

Always good when a poor example adds to a poor argument (which it is - ticketing is not clear at all). The reason you get MAY contain nuts on peanut packets is in fact that peanuts are not nuts but a type of bean (legume), and they may contain nuts because they are made in factories that process things that ARE nuts.

The point, as well you know, is that people with nut allergies are allergic to peanuts (although they are a legume) but to have to state as a warning that a substance which is known to contain peanuts by its very description is a nonsense. Putting said warning on a packet of chocolate biscuits however because of where they are prepared is totally different.

Such warnings are being put on products where it is already clear what the contents are owing to people who are stupid and refuse to read things properly - same with train tickets.

And I didn't say a packet of peanuts, so try reading my posts properly.

 

[PeterC]

I disagree - the ticket clearly states at the bottom if there's an operator or time restriction. Reality is people try buying the cheapest ticket then get on whatever train they like. They're either dishonest and trying it on or are stupid for not reading what their ticket says.

If designing any system you need to design out the potential for mistakes.

 

[TUC]

Of course they shouldn't be abolished. This is the kind of argument run by people who say there shouldn't be a choice of energy companies because some people lack the initiative/too lazy to look for the best deal. It's argument made by people with more money than sense,

 

[Journeyman]

Of course they shouldn't be abolished. This is the kind of argument run by people who say there shouldn't be a choice of energy companies because some people lack the initiative/too lazy to look for the best deal. It's argument made by people with more money than sense,

Completely. There's no way a product should be abolished just because understanding of how it works is less than 100%. One of the reasons the railway network has seen such phenomenal growth in the last twenty years is the development of very sophisticated price and demand management tools, which have filled seats that would otherwise be empty.

 

[bramling]

No. You can't legislate for stupidity. Tickets are clearly marked when they are only valid on one operator. These are the kind of people who would try to use a Tesco Clubcard voucher in Morrisons.

You don’t, however, tend to visit a Tesco’s which is all branded up as Morrisons, which can be the case when stock is hired from one TOC to another, and likewise Tesco hasn’t really changed its identity or brand in my lifetime, whereas rail franchise brands come and go. I can get why it can be confusing.

Look at the whole Gatwick Express situation in recent years for a prime example.

 

[Hadders]

But to use your Stevenage - London example, that predates privatisation as there were tickets which were valid on Inter City and not valid on Inter City along with pick up / set down only stops on the IC services which served Stevenage, so the current situation is a development of that.

I can't say I remember tickets that were only/were not valid on Inter City services but I do remember pick-up and set down restrictions at places like Stevenage.

Here we go, slagging off advances again. Not everyone needs, or wants to pay for, flexibility.

I've nothing against Advance tickets as such but we do need to be very careful when claims are made about their value, the price fluctuates at the behest of the TOC. There is absolutely no transparency about how many tickets there actually are at any given price. Walk up fares provide a ceiling above which Advance fares cannot go. Some TOCs would love to abolish cheaper walk up fares (like Super Off Peaks at weekends) so that they could raise the price of Advance fares.

I'm also against Advance fares on local routes with a frequent service. LNER have introduced Advance fares recently between Stevenage and London, between London and Stevenage there are around 9 or 10 trains an hour. I'd wager that if someone checked the exact train passengers travelled on with these Advance tickets they would find many simply travelled on a GTR service. Far better in my opinion to make sure there is a good value walk up fare in place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm also against Advance fares on local routes with a frequent service. LNER have introduced Advance fares recently between Stevenage and London, between London and Stevenage there are around 9 or 10 trains an hour. I'd wager that if someone checked the exact train passengers travelled on with these Advance tickets they would find many simply travelled on a GTR service. Far better in my opinion to make sure there is a good value walk up fare in place.

That or you do Advances differently - release a load of them at a fixed price and promote that, and then you can just walk up and buy one, and buy one on the way back too when you know which train you will use.

OK, this doesn't allow for things like break of journey, but this sort of journey does not really facilitate that anyway given that there are no intermediate stops.

I have long said that single fare pricing solves a lot of problems - and one of them is allowing for this sort of thing.

 

[Hadders]

That or you do Advances differently - release a load of them at a fixed price and promote that, and then you can just walk up and buy one, and buy one on the way back too when you know which train you will use.

OK, this doesn't allow for things like break of journey, but this sort of journey does not really facilitate that anyway given that there are no intermediate stops.

I have long said that single fare pricing solves a lot of problems - and one of them is allowing for this sort of thing.

The problem with sound Advance tickets like this is that it just gives the TOCs/DfT a license to put up the price at popular times. For example:

A hot bank holiday - increase the fare if you want to go to the seaside
Football at Wembley - kerching that’ll cost more
Off to a music festival- better get used to paying more to get there

What’s wrong with fixed prices for walk-up tickets, even better if there’s single leg pricing.

To be fair dynamic pricing is used in areas like hotels and airlines but being utterly frank do we really want to see more of it on the railway?