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Rail decarbonisation: What are the solutions?

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reddragon

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You may mock the Las Vegas system, but it has provided a emission free transport system that works that would never have otherwise been built.

Who is to say that a small UK branch line would not end up as rows of EVs on a track? Luton, Gosport & Cambridge got diesel buses.

If we are to reopen closed lines with the central areas built over or make a small diesel branch line viable by building a town loop tunnel, that achieved decarbonisation.
 
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Bald Rick

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You may mock the Las Vegas system, but it has provided a emission free transport system that works that would never have otherwise been built.

It wa built as an experiment. If you are going to build a tunnel in urban areas - with all the embedded carbon that entail - and put guided electric vehicles in them, it is far more efficient to make them high capacity. Also known as a train.
 
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reddragon

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It wa built as an experiment. If you are going to build a tunnel in urban areas - with all the embedded carbon that entail - and put guided electric vehicles in them, it is far more efficient to make them high capacity. Also known as a train.
The first steam train was on a circular railway. The loco blew up. Was it a failure?
The first electric trams in Blackpool, the first in the world did not work as sand blocked the conduits. Was it a failure?

The simple point is that us in Europe are sort of happy to spend huge sums on Metro systems, high speed rail etc but in the USA they are not.

In the UK, we find it hard to build a decent station for $50m, yet they have build a "metro" with 3 stops, one under ground capable of 8000 passengers per hour, flexible enough to allow 'cars' to go beyond the system.

That is not a failure, it works even if you don't like it.
 

Bald Rick

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In the UK, we find it hard to build a decent station for $50m, yet they have build a "metro" with 3 stops, one under ground capable of 8000 passengers per hour, flexible enough to allow 'cars' to go beyond the system.

That is not a failure, it works even if you don't like it.

I didn’t say it was a failure.

I do say it is an inappropriate use of known technology.

I also say that their accounting is highly dubious!
 

HSTEd

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They dug a tunnel that is so small you can't even get the door of the Tesla in it fully open.

They should have gone for a larger 5.2m tunnel, it would double the amount of removed material but you could have a fully regulator approved tube line in it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have looked at it and it is comedy of the highest order. A badly built tunnel not much larger then a sewer fitted with LED disco lights through which a Tesla 'self' drives you at 40mph max.

It doesn't self drive any more, now its got taxi drivers running loops
 

reddragon

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They dug a tunnel that is so small you can't even get the door of the Tesla in it fully open.

They should have gone for a larger 5.2m tunnel, it would double the amount of removed material but you could have a fully regulator approved tube line in it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



It doesn't self drive any more, now its got taxi drivers running loops
It has never been used as self drive with passengers, but that is the intention as are more suitable vehicles.
 

Royston Vasey

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Porterbrook claim that they "have calculated that every ‘half-life’ rail vehicle that we dispose of results in 77 tonnes of carbon dioxide being wasted"
In perspective, a Boeing 777 will emit about that much carbon between London and Tokyo, one way. It's not an earth-shattering volume of carbon, in the big picture.

Assuming we scrapped a 2 car DMU (based on Northern Class 158 data here, roughly 2 kg per train km emitted), electrified the line and replaced it with a new EMU:

- Emissions 3 kg per train mile/1.5 kg per vehicle mile
- 77 tonnes of carbon will be emitted per vehicle in about 50,000 miles
- At 500 miles per day, that's only 100 days of CO2 emissions (purely by the diesel engines, not accounting for full life cycle)

Put another way, if you scrap a DMU that's only half-expired but replace it with an EMU on low carbon electricity, it will take only a few months to save the CO2 generated by the operation of that train.

To get more of a lifecycle view, Porterbrook here report the RSSB estimate for the CO2 equivalent of producing "an electric train" in 2011 was 146 tonnes - not sure how many vehicles that assumes, but let's assume that's worst case, 146 tonnes per vehicle:

Carbon cost of replacing two car DMU with two car EMU = 292 tonnes CO2e
Carbon emissions avoided by operating EMU over DMU = 77 tonnes per 100 days
Carbon payback time = 379 days

So electrification is critical - I realise this is back of the envelope and this ignores the cement and steel required, and the current carbon emissions of National Grid electricity. However this gives an order of magnitude to the value in avoided carbon given by electrification. The payback in environmental terms is incredibly short.
 

HSTEd

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77 tonnes of carbon dioxide is the emissions from the combustion of ~24.5 tonnes of diesel, or about 29,000 litres

Given that a typical DMU vehicle might have an ~1800 Litre fuel tank, it won't take too long for intensive service use to burn through that much diesel.
 

nlogax

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Half of the M180 motorway in Lincs is going to be wired for an electric lorry freight pilot, according to The Graun.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorries

The government will fund the design of a scheme to install overhead electric cables to power electric lorries on a motorway near Scunthorpe, as part of a series of studies on how to decarbonise road freight.

The electric road system – or e-highway – study, backed with £2m of funding, will draw up plans to install overhead cables on a 20km (12.4 miles) stretch of the M180 near Scunthorpe, in Lincolnshire. If the designs are accepted and building work is funded the trucks could be on the road by 2024.



Road freight is one of the hardest parts of the economy to decarbonise, because no technology exists yet on a large scale that is capable of powering long-haul lorries with zero direct exhaust emissions.
 

Meerkat

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Ken H

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Well electrification assumes the electric is 100 carbon free
I am not really happy about too much nuclear either. OK, no carbon but what about the waste, and what about accidents like Cherobyl?
But the real way to cut carbon is to get people out of cars. Thats where the real carbon reductions are.
 

zwk500

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Any chance the could fund electrifying the London Gateway and Felixstowe branches?
Electric roads could be a big problem for rail freight.
I hope ORR are being as strict on the safety standards!
For £2m? Not a chance. Motorways have the advantage of already being gauge-cleared, as it were.
 

Rhydgaled

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Well electrification assumes the electric is 100 carbon free
I am not really happy about too much nuclear either. OK, no carbon but what about the waste, and what about accidents like Cherobyl?
But the real way to cut carbon is to get people out of cars. Thats where the real carbon reductions are.
I fear getting people out of cars (at least for journeys that are too far to walk/cycle) will be like getting blood out of a stone now that we have COVID-19 around, but I agree it needs to be done.

I don't think any means of generating electricity is 100% carbon free. Nuclear fission is probably relatively low carbon (not no carbon) and not renewable either (we will run out of radioactive elements to fuel the reactors eventually). I also have concerns about the waste, and about accidents like Cherobyl, but how do you choose between that risk and the near-certainty of climate breakdown if we keep burning fossil fuels? For the longer term, I've seen it suggested that modified reactor designs might be possible that produce waste which is much-less-radioactive and phyiscally cannot meltdown, but we're some way away from that yet (possibly, and I may be talking rubbish here, because governments have pushed development away from such designs and towards what we have now because a by-product of the current approach is material that can be used to make nuclear weapons).

Electric roads could be a big problem for rail freight.
No bigger than Diesel lorries!
No bigger than diesel lorries in the case of most rail freight in the UK at the moment, which is of course diesel hauled. However electric roads could be a problem where electrically hauled rail freight is chosen/subsidised/promoted over road freight because road freight (at the moment) is stuck with diesel HGVs. Electric roads would make road freight look a lot 'greener' and therefore rail could lose the advantage of being perceived as 'greener' (electric rail would potentially still be lower carbon than electric roads depending on the amount of freight that needs shifting).
 

Meerkat

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As strict as tramways or trolleybuses, which are the obvious exemplar?
They are in a low speed town environment and presumably the rules around driver training and maintenance are still pretty strict??
No bigger than Diesel lorries!
If lorries are electric then diesel trains’ green credentials evaporate, and the justification for subsidising rail freight reduces to just traffic rather than traffic and being much greener than lorries.
 

Rhydgaled

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If lorries are electric then diesel trains’ green credentials evaporate, and the justification for subsidising rail freight reduces to just traffic rather than traffic and being much greener than lorries.
If a diesel train if much more energy-efficient than diesel lorries then an electric train is probably still much more energy efficient than electric lorries. Unfortunately decision-makers might not see it like that, and they seem to love spending on roads so if electric roads prove feesible I fear we'll end up with more of them than electric railways.
 

Meerkat

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If a diesel train if much more energy-efficient than diesel lorries then an electric train is probably still much more energy efficient than electric lorries. Unfortunately decision-makers might not see it like that, and they seem to love spending on roads so if electric roads prove feesible I fear we'll end up with more of them than electric railways.
That isn’t guaranteed is it? The electric lorry will go direct, the container on the electric train will probably go a long way round, and to somewhere not particularly near its destination so will need a lorry leg as well. How do container lorries compare with container trains on empty running?
 

Rhydgaled

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That isn’t guaranteed is it? The electric lorry will go direct, the container on the electric train will probably go a long way round, and to somewhere not particularly near its destination so will need a lorry leg as well.
True, but don't the same arguments apply to diesel lorries versus a diesel train? The amount of cargo you need to move is also a factor, if you only have one container to move between A (or anywhere near A) and B (or anywhere near B) then a diesel lorry is almost certainly going to be a better option than a train and possibly even better than an electric lorry if you consider embedded carbon (I have no idea how to even begin answering that).

However, I would have thought that rail would (technically, but perhaps not pollitically) retain the advantage on a flow where diesel train is currently better than diesel lorry if both the railway and the road were electrified. That's just my gut feeling, but it intuitively seems correct. Have you some factors I may not have considered that would make it different?
 

Meerkat

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However, I would have thought that rail would (technically, but perhaps not pollitically) retain the advantage on a flow where diesel train is currently better than diesel lorry if both the railway and the road were electrified. That's just my gut feeling, but it intuitively seems correct. Have you some factors I may not have considered that would make it different?
Sure, as long as the reason they are using the train isn’t the green points. And it’s yet another excuse for the DfT not to electrify things.
 

zwk500

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However, I would have thought that rail would (technically, but perhaps not pollitically) retain the advantage on a flow where diesel train is currently better than diesel lorry if both the railway and the road were electrified. That's just my gut feeling, but it intuitively seems correct. Have you some factors I may not have considered that would make it different?
In the UK, I don't think there are many flows where it's a case of road v rail in direct competition. Road is suited to small-scale or flexible distribution patterns, such as journeys to the point of sale. Rail is suited to large-scale bulk flows with predictable long-term patterns, such as products from Ship to Central Warehouse. The UK's small size means the relative advantages of the two modes don't overlap too much.

My gut feeling is that electric roads aren't going to lead to great swathes of containers suddenly jumping ship (pardon the pun) to road haulage, just as wiring every inch of the rail network wouldn't take 100s of lorries off the roads.
 

Mikey C

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In the UK, I don't think there are many flows where it's a case of road v rail in direct competition. Road is suited to small-scale or flexible distribution patterns, such as journeys to the point of sale. Rail is suited to large-scale bulk flows with predictable long-term patterns, such as products from Ship to Central Warehouse. The UK's small size means the relative advantages of the two modes don't overlap too much.

My gut feeling is that electric roads aren't going to lead to great swathes of containers suddenly jumping ship (pardon the pun) to road haulage, just as wiring every inch of the rail network wouldn't take 100s of lorries off the roads.
Agreed

"Road electrification" is fascinating technology, but has a lot of technical and operational questions to be resolved anyway. And what happens with road works or accidents where the electrified lane is closed?
 

zwk500

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And what happens with road works or accidents where the electrified lane is closed?
Tbh, this is the least of the questions - nobody is proposing OLE into industrial estates etc, so you'd still need some form of alternative mode. If the lane is closed, use the alternative mode and setup service stations with charging points.
The questions will be about power draw, safety in the event of a dewirement, visibility of VSL/Smart motorway gantry signals and how much of the road network is suitable for this equipment.
 
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