What do you need/where can you divide trains?

[Lampshade]

Didn't these things run in pairs on the GW. I'm sure I've been on a 10 coach 180. Maybe my mind's playing tricks again.

They've definitely run as a ten coach train under FGW (and Hull Trains if I'm not mistaken) but they supposedly had a list of what will couple to what and vice versa, seems GC has been saddled with the ones that don't like each other.

Also, why don't these companies 'play trains' in the privacy of a depot. Why do it in a station and worse, on a scheduled train. Surely you'd learn that on day one of even the most basic managerial course.

Because that's common sense and has no place on the railway

 

[ungreat]

Something that does not appear to have changed is the access of a second (or even third) train into an already occupied platform at a terminus
For example at Glasgow Central
The first train will receive a single amber and stop in the platform
The second train will also receive a single amber, rather than a "call-on" signal, on passing that signal the driver wil not be aware the platform is already occupied, but will be aware of this on approaching the platform
Hence why the speed limit is lower beyond the final signal

Where on earth did you hear/dredge up/make up/dream up THAT? So you are saying the signaller will allow a train into a platform on a main aspect that is already occupied without any advance warning to the train driver? Dear me,you REALLY know nothing about operations.Please do not post such drivel..it implies slack working practices and also shows you in a very bad light as some folk might just believe what you have posted

You NEVER get a main aspect into an occupied platform..EVER

You would get a sub to indicate an occupied line..never,ever a main aspect!

Mind you what would I know about signals..only been on the footplate 23 years!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I used to observe many of the join / splits at Carstairs
However the loco brakes on the main train would be applied throughout

If the loco brakes are applied they aint gonna be on the train..just the loco!

Please stop posting rubbish..you obviously dont know what you are on about so please stop making posts that have no basis in fact

 

[driver9000]

Does anyone know if a 15 car 180 is allowed? Also, could a train split in the sidings south of Doncaster or does it have to be in a platform?

The TMS on the 180 is only set up for 2 sets to operate in multiple, so 10 cars is the maximum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There used to be an instruction that the driver stopped 6-8 feet short, then drew forward to couple.

The rule to stop 6ft off another vehicle before drawing forward still exists. We are then required to stop again at 2ft before setting on to the other vehicle.

 

[CarterUSM]

Coming into the Central, you get the cats eyes and the associated platform number on gantry 'A' as always when the platform is occupied . On the subject of units splitting on the move, Scotrails 156 fleet had a couple of incidents of this a few years ago, can't remember why exactly, but as a result of this, blue lights were installed on the cab bulkheads behind the driving position, that when lit, prove the coupling integrity after having been carried out. During fitting of these, units in multiple were to run with the gangway doors locked out of use until completion.

 

[rail-britain]

Coming into the Central, you get the cats eyes and the associated platform number on gantry 'A' as always when the platform is occupied

It used to be a red/yellow and/or call-on
If the platform was occupied the signal would remain at red for 30 seconds, before changing to yellow
The only time I saw a call-on being given was when the next section was occupied, resulting in the next call-on being red, ie the unit was sitting beyond the signal and into the junction (platform 9)

 

[MCR247]

Normally the front unit would be left open until the rear unit arrives, but the doors MUST be closed on both units during the coupling operation for two very good reason.

On all units? I have been on a 444 that has been joined to by another 444 with doors open.

But I'm sure I have had this discussion before (dunno if it was with you)

 

[33056]

It used to be a red/yellow and/or call-on
If the platform was occupied the signal would remain at red for 30 seconds, before changing to yellow
The only time I saw a call-on being given was when the next section was occupied, resulting in the next call-on being red, ie the unit was sitting beyond the signal and into the junction (platform 9)

I am sure that they don't do (and never have done) things any different up in Scotland - as ungreat says, you will NEVER get a proceed aspect into an occupied road or platform; always red with a position light or subsidiary signal in mechanical areas.

Where there is no such signal then the driver would have to be authorised to pass the main aspect signal at danger by the signalman and that would only normally be done in exceptional circumstances such as rescuing a failed train.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It used to be a red/yellow and/or call-on
If the platform was occupied the signal would remain at red for 30 seconds, before changing to yellow
The only time I saw a call-on being given was when the next section was occupied, resulting in the next call-on being red, ie the unit was sitting beyond the signal and into the junction (platform 9)

You would never get signalled into an occupied section on a main aspect.
The yellow aspect tells the driver that the line is clear as far as the next stop signal which will be showing a red aspect. That simply isn't true if the platform is occupied!

 

[Tomnick]

Coming into the Central, you get the cats eyes and the associated platform number on gantry 'A' as always when the platform is occupied .

Thanks for the confirmation - I suspected as much but didn't want to be caught out by some local peculiarity! That confirms my suspicions that rail-britain's talking nonsense .

Perhaps someone with route knowledge or access to the LNE Sectional Appendix could confirm for me that Skegness is an exception (with signalling from many, many years ago) though? There's no subsidiary arm under the inner home, and I was under the impression that - by local instruction - drivers were to always expect to have to stop short of another train...?

 

[driver9000]

It used to be a red/yellow and/or call-on
If the platform was occupied the signal would remain at red for 30 seconds, before changing to yellow
The only time I saw a call-on being given was when the next section was occupied, resulting in the next call-on being red, ie the unit was sitting beyond the signal and into the junction (platform 9)

Having looked at Glasgow Centrals local instructions just in case, there is no mention of entering an occupied platform on main aspects. To do so is in total violation of signalling principles and the rulebook. If I was signalled on top of a train with a main aspect it would be a serious irregularity and treated as a serious incident. As others have already said, trains are NEVER signalled in to occupied platforms on main aspects.

 

[CarterUSM]

It used to be a red/yellow and/or call-on
If the platform was occupied the signal would remain at red for 30 seconds, before changing to yellow
The only time I saw a call-on being given was when the next section was occupied, resulting in the next call-on being red, ie the unit was sitting beyond the signal and into the junction (platform 9)

I don't think i've ever seen that, even before the new interlocking was put in place.

 

[Crossover]

Coming into the Central, you get the cats eyes and the associated platform number on gantry 'A' as always when the platform is occupied.

Just to clarify - are the "cats eyes" the shunt signals that are down at track level? (2 reds and a white light or something like that?)

 

[CarterUSM]

Just to clarify - are the "cats eyes" the shunt signals that are down at track level? (2 reds and a white light or something like that?)

No, theres none down at ground level anymore, these were all taken away during the new interlocking installation a few years ago. They are in association with the main aspect on the gantry and are only lit when calling on. You do get ground position light signals like that elsewhere though. One with two red lights is a limit of shunt indicator, one with a red and a white light is a shunt signal in the 'ON' position, it will show two white lights angled at 45 degrees when 'OFF' or cats eyes as we call them.

 

[Tomnick]

Just to clarify - are the "cats eyes" the shunt signals that are down at track level? (2 reds and a white light or something like that?)

They're the position lights associated with a main signal - two white lights arranged diagonally when cleared and no indication the rest of the time, with the red aspect of the main signal above.

 

[GB]

One with two red lights is a limit of shunt indicator, one with a red and a white light is a shunt signal in the 'ON' position, it will show two white lights angled at 45 degrees when 'OFF' or cats eyes as we call them

.

Most modern GPLs show either two red for "ON" or two white for "OFF". I believe the one red + one white for "ON" is the older style.

 

[CarterUSM]

.

Most modern GPLs show either two red for "ON" or two white for "OFF". I believe the one red + one white for "ON" is the older style.

Yes, absolutely correct, i forgot to mention that!

 

[33056]

They're the position lights associated with a main signal - two white lights arranged diagonally when cleared and no indication the rest of the time, with the red aspect of the main signal above.

Though this is not in conjunction with a station platform, attached below is an example with associated route indicator - you can see there is a blanking plate where the left hand red light would be; this it's mechanical equivalent . Also, here is an example of a modern ground position light signal with no associated main aspect.

 

[O L Leigh]

Most modern GPLs show either two red for "ON" or two white for "OFF". I believe the one red + one white for "ON" is the older style.

That's correct for ground position light signals (GPL's), but not for position light signals associated with a main aspect signal, such as you would need for permissive working. Those are just the two white lights at 45 degrees and no red lights. When not lit the driver would be signalled instead by the main aspect signal so would disregard the position light signal.

Have been on others through (such as the 375's uncoupling at Faversham) where the doors have been open when it is has taken place

Uncoupling is different. Once the two portions are split electrically they are two separate trains, even if still joined physically. Therefore you can easily uncouple away from a portion with the doors still open.

O L Leigh

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That's correct for ground position light signals (GPL's), but not for position light signals associated with a main aspect signal, such as you would need for permissive working. Those are just the two white lights at 45 degrees and no red lights. When not lit the driver would be signalled instead by the main aspect signal so would disregard the position light signal.

In other words, the position light authorises you to pass the main aspect at danger, when the main aspect cannot be cleared because the line is occupied.

 

[GB]

That's correct for ground position light signals (GPL's), but not for position light signals associated with a main aspect signal, such as you would need for permissive working. Those are just the two white lights at 45 degrees and no red lights. When not lit the driver would be signalled instead by the main aspect signal so would disregard the position light signal.

Yes I am aware of that OLL but my post was in reply to CarterUSM regarding GPLs (not subs).

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Blimus people, there's a lot off cross-talk going on here about shunt signals.

A shunt signal mounted on the ground - occasionally on a post is a signal to control a shunt movement. They used to show one red light and one white light horizontally whilst in the "on" position and two white lights at an angle of forty five degrees when in the "off" position. There was concern that if the red light failed a driver or person in charge of a train movement might not be savvy enough to question the aspect so now the signal shows two horizontal red lights when in the "on" position.

A subsidiary signal is mounted below or next to a main aspect signal. It's purpose is to allow a train to pass the main aspect at danger for shunting purposes. When cleared it will display two white lights at an angle of forty five degrees. If it is cleared to-gether with an indication of route or platform number it acts as a "calling-on" signal to indicate that the section of line ahead is occupied. In a few places the signal will display with a small "C" illuminated - this also indicates a "calling-on" move.

I'm not sure how many yellow shunt signals there are now. These would be located in sidings where there was a turn-out to a running line. They only applied to a movement if it was routed to where the signal route was.

I've described colour light versions. There's plenty of discs still about, painted white with a horizontal red bar and either floodlit as per southern or showing either a green or red light at night.
Then there's the minature arm subsidiary in an semaphore area which consists of a white arm with red edged.

 

[O L Leigh]

In other words, the position light authorises you to pass the main aspect at danger, when the main aspect cannot be cleared because the line is occupied.

Erm, well...

No, not as such. You're not being authorised to pass a main aspect at danger. It is simply that a main aspect signal showing a proceed aspect has a different meaning to a position light signal associated with that main aspect signal.

A proceed aspect on a main aspect signal means that you can proceed as far as the next main aspect signal; i.e. that the entire signal section is clear. Where a train needs to enter a permissive platform that is already occupied this would not be possible because the other train stands between you and the next main aspect signal (even if it is the fixed red on top of the stops at a terminus), therefore it is not possible to show anything other than a red on the main aspect signal.

The meaning of the associated position light signal is that a train may proceed at caution as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop as the line ahead may be occupied. This is not the same thing as being authorised to pass a signal at danger, as a cleared associated position light signal is still a proceed aspect even though it is not a main aspect.

Yes I am aware of that OLL but my post was in reply to CarterUSM regarding GPLs (not subs).

I appreciate that you do. I'm just adding some further clarification for others who might still not be totally clear.

O L Leigh

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Erm, well...

No, not as such. You're not being authorised to pass a main aspect at danger. It is simply that a main aspect signal showing a proceed aspect has a different meaning to a position light signal associated with that main aspect signal.

I'm going to have to take issue with you here old flower. The clearance of a subsidiary signal is authorisation to pass the main aspect at danger, that's why the subsidiary is not cleared/illuminated for a normal movement. If a train is in the section ahead the main aspect cannot be cleared as the line is not clear to the next signal and the overlap beyond. A subsidiary signal is provided to allow a train to pass the signal at danger for the purposes of shunting or entering an occupied section of line. If no subsidiary is provided then the signalman will authorise the train to pass the signal verbally. Section "C" of the good book used to (it may still do) list fifteen ways in which a train could be authorised to pass a signal at danger. Clearing of an associated subsidiary signal was one of them.

A proceed aspect on a main aspect signal means that you can proceed as far as the next main aspect signal; i.e. that the entire signal section is clear. Where a train needs to enter a permissive platform that is already occupied this would not be possible because the other train stands between you and the next main aspect signal (even if it is the fixed red on top of the stops at a terminus), therefore it is not possible to show anything other than a red on the main aspect signal.

The meaning of the associated position light signal is that a train may proceed at caution as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop as the line ahead may be occupied. This is not the same thing as being authorised to pass a signal at danger, as a cleared associated position light signal is still a proceed aspect even though it is not a main aspect.



I appreciate that you do. I'm just adding some further clarification for others who might still not be totally clear.

O L Leigh

.....

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm going to have to take issue with you here old flower. The clearance of a subsidiary signal is authorisation to pass the main aspect at danger, that's why the subsidiary is not cleared/illuminated for a normal movement. If a train is in the section ahead the main aspect cannot be cleared as the line is not clear to the next signal and the overlap beyond. A subsidiary signal is provided to allow a train to pass the signal at danger for the purposes of shunting or entering an occupied section of line. If no subsidiary is provided then the signalman will authorise the train to pass the signal verbally. Section "C" of the good book used to (it may still do) list fifteen ways in which a train could be authorised to pass a signal at danger. Clearing of an associated subsidiary signal was one of them.

Sorry old fruit, but that is not included as one of the 15 reasons still listed within the Rules why you may be authorised to pass a signal at danger. The closest you get is where a "...section signal is to be passed at danger for shunting purposes" (S5 A 1.1), but this suggests something a little out of the ordinary to deal with some sort of out-of-course situation rather than a regular method of working (e.g. permissive working). No mention is made of subsidiary signals at all within this section.

However your explanation is actually not so very far from my own, particularly where it relates to the reasons why the main aspect signal cannot be cleared. The key difference is that you are not being authorised to pass a signal at danger. The associated position light signal is almost like having an additional proceed aspect on the main aspect signal but with a specific meaning. The fact that the main aspect signal will continue to show red is neither here nor there.

O L Leigh

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Sorry old fruit, but that is not included as one of the 15 reasons still listed within the Rules why you may be authorised to pass a signal at danger. The closest you get is where a "...section signal is to be passed at danger for shunting purposes" (S5 A 1.1), but this suggests something a little out of the ordinary to deal with some sort of out-of-course situation rather than a regular method of working (e.g. permissive working). No mention is made of subsidiary signals at all within this section.

However your explanation is actually not so very far from my own, particularly where it relates to the reasons why the main aspect signal cannot be cleared. The key difference is that you are not being authorised to pass a signal at danger. The associated position light signal is almost like having an additional proceed aspect on the main aspect signal but with a specific meaning. The fact that the main aspect signal will continue to show red is neither here nor there.

Oh dear Oh dear. If the train is not being authorised to pass the main aspect signal at danger, why is a subsidiary signal provided? Why isn't the main (red) aspect extinguished when the subsidiary is cleared? It's because the train is passing a red signal which cannot be cleared after being authorised to by the clearance of the subsidiary. If a train is going to be passing a red signal it needs authorisation, that's what the subsidiary signal is doing. COLOR]

O L Leigh

.....

 

[GB]

As far as Im concerned, the sub is part of the whole signal therefore if the sub is off, the whole signal is to be considered off.

If it really is considered "passing a signal at danger", then why are drivers not required to give a blast of their horn when proceeding?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

As far as Im concerned, the sub is part of the whole signal therefore if the sub is off, the whole signal is to be considered off.

If it really is considered "passing a signal at danger", then why are drivers not required to give a blast of their horn when proceeding?

Because it's not an exceptional move, it's normal signalling.

 

[O L Leigh]

Oh dear Oh dear. If the train is not being authorised to pass the main aspect signal at danger, why is a subsidiary signal provided?

Because a proceed aspect at a main aspect signal means that the train is clear to proceed as far as the next main aspect signal. Therefore you cannot signal a train into an occupied permissive platform using a main aspect signal, as the train coming in cannot proceed as far as the next main aspect. Therefore you need an associated position light signal.

Why isn't the main (red) aspect extinguished when the subsidiary is cleared?

I don't know, but the fact that it isn't is not significant.

It's because the train is passing a red signal which cannot be cleared after being authorised to by the clearance of the subsidiary. If a train is going to be passing a red signal it needs authorisation, that's what the subsidiary signal is doing.

This is not the same thing as being authorised to pass a signal at danger and, not matter what the Rules USED to say, subsidiary signals are no longer mentioned in the relevant section. Likewise, working a train into a permissive platform is not covered by the same rules as are required to be carried out if you were being authorised to pass a signal at danger because, say, a level crossing had failed.

O L Leigh

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I've just had a look at the current rule book.

The normal aspect for a position-light signal is unlit. This means obey the main signal.

WHich suggests to me if the position light is lit it means you do not obey the main signal, thus you pass it at danger.

 

[button_boxer]

WHich suggests to me if the position light is lit it means you do not obey the main signal, thus you pass it at danger.

I think what the other posters are trying to say is that the main and subsidiary aspects together count as one signal. If the position light says you can proceed then the signal as a whole is not "at danger" regardless of what the main aspect says.