British Transport Police - caution or interview under caution? Confused!

[WesternLancer]

Maybe it’s because they are looking into it so it’s taking a bit longer. It’s so hard to carry on with life. Equally to not be angry with myself because it’s all my own doing too. I am renowned for beating myself up for anything however minor or major it is & so you can imagine how much I am beating myself up for this.

No, it's cos they have too much to do and not enough people to do it (a bit like the NHS!).
But try not to beat yourself up. Not easy I know, but best try to think about anything else you can think about.
Don't even think about what might have happened to the letter for 4 to 6 weeks.

 

[SillyTraveller]

No, it's cos they have too much to do and not enough people to do it (a bit like the NHS!).
But try not to beat yourself up. Not easy I know, but best try to think about anything else you can think about.
Don't even think about what might have happened to the letter for 4 to 6 weeks.

True! Ok, well it’s been 3 weeks tomorrow so I’ll give it more time until I panic more. I want to start writing my letter but equally I don’t want to until I get it so I know what I’m replying to. I know what I want to say in my head. I just want the whole thing over & done with now. All I keep thinking is worst case - my mind works like that unfortunately. But I will try and think of something else & see it as I’m trying to put right what I’ve done wrong & hope they see it like that, too.

 

[SillyTraveller]

Hi all,

So my letter came today whilst at work so I’ve not yet seen it as I don’t get back until late & I’m on the train home (the irony) I’m in work tomorrow too (we work 12 hour shifts & with my commute I’m out the house for 16 hours) so I need to write it Saturday when I have the day off.

As predicted, just asks for my version of events. Husband said it’s not a scary letter. Will follow advice on here.
will post on here first if okay! Hopefully my remorse and true reflective account has gone in my favour as at least it wasn’t a court summons (so far).

My anxiety has settled a bit since because I hope that by being cooperative in the first instance & truthful will help be able to settle this out of court. At least now i am able to eat which I couldn’t do a week ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2021 ==

 

[Hadders]

Feel free to post a draft of your letter on here and we can proof it for you.

 

[SillyTraveller]

Feel free to post a draft of your letter on here and we can proof it for you.

Thank you. Will post it on Saturday once I’ve done it. I appreciate it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. Will post it on Saturday once I’ve done it. I appreciate it.

Probably best advice is that you need to try not to make it too long, whilst being genuine in your apology and remorse. Good luck.

Those are long shifts by the way! A tough job. Respect to those that do it.

 

[SillyTraveller]

Probably best advice is that you need to try not to make it too long, whilst being genuine in your apology and remorse. Good luck.

Those are long shifts by the way! A tough job. Respect to those that do it.

Thank you for the advice. Will follow that. Genuinely sorry & feel stupid so hopefully it’ll come across that way.

The shifts are indeed long and I work in quite an acute busy area so it’s exhausting all the time. Luckily I enjoy my job or else i couldn’t do it!

A question though, do I tell them how long it was for? Lots on here have said no to but in my initial statement I told them and I told them it was longer than it was (to make sure I didn’t look like I was lying) but it’s actually a shorter period of time. So do I just outrightly say how long it was for?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A question though, do I tell them how long it was for? Lots on here have said no to but in my initial statement I told them and I told them it was longer than it was (to make sure I didn’t look like I was lying) but it’s actually a shorter period of time. So do I just outrightly say how long it was for?

At the risk of sounding like a primary school teacher, my feeling is that ‘honesty is the best policy’. That’s mainly a gut reaction on my part, but in favour of this view I’d add
- if the case goes to court, then evidence is given on the basis that it’s the whole truth: that is, there’s a strong presumption that you should not make only partial disclosure and I doubt if the magistrate would approve of you doing so. It seems to me that it’s only fair to you and the railway (the other side) to make full disclosure throughout.
- you should aim to be happy with what you tell the other side: if you feel that you haven’t explained what you think is important you will always worry that maybe you could have done better with a different statement
- in this case, what you now consider to be the truth is more to your benefit than what you initially said so it makes sense to share it. But you will need to explain why your new opinion is more accurate than what you said in the first place (I assume that it’s because you have had a chance to think more carefully and look at your records: it would be good if you were able to back up your new thoughts by bank statements and so on that show when you started paying the reduced fare).

 

[Hadders]

As I said earlier on in the thread keep your reply short and concise, don't ramble on. I'd just reply about the specific incident(s) referred to in the letter.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does the letter refer to a specific incident? For example “when you were stopped for travelling without a ticket on X date”? Or does it ask for details of all your fare evading?

 

[SillyTraveller]

Attached it. Just says an incident.

 

[WesternLancer]

A question though, do I tell them how long it was for? Lots on here have said no to but in my initial statement I told them and I told them it was longer than it was (to make sure I didn’t look like I was lying) but it’s actually a shorter period of time. So do I just outrightly say how long it was for?

I'm not 100% sure on your question, but if it were me, and given your general approach to the whole incident and your clear regrets, and desire to be honest, I would err to the same advice @Fawkes Cat has stated.

The risk of you not stating it all is that they have the notes where you already admitted it, they will then see in your reply that you have now opted not to admit it, and that may reduce their desire to settle with you (or increase their motivation to prosecute), which clearly all along you are very much seeking to avoid.

 

[AlterEgo]

The letter asks for "any further comment" on the incident. I would simply state you are sorry that you were caught without a valid ticket on the date shown the letter, and wish to settle the matter out of court to the satisfaction of both parties.

Give no further details. Make no further admission.

 

[Haywain]

What’s important is not to lie. It is fine for you to say you made a stupid decision without specifying when you made that decision. Just use words that cannot be seen as denial of the number of times you’ve done this whole not admitting the number of times.

 

[WesternLancer]

What’s important is not to lie. It is fine for you to say you made a stupid decision without specifying when you made that decision. Just use words that cannot be seen as denial of the number of times you’ve done this whole not admitting the number of times.

Yes, I guess this is very important advice. The rest is probably for the OP's conscience to decide.

 

[AlterEgo]

What’s important is not to lie. It is fine for you to say you made a stupid decision without specifying when you made that decision. Just use words that cannot be seen as denial of the number of times you’ve done this whole not admitting the number of times.

Precisely. Hence my advice to give as succinct an answer as possible.

A fulsome explanation of everything yet again is merely more evidence. We don't know, for example, that the inspector's notebook hasn't been lost, destroyed or unreadable, or what, if any, other evidence the train company has.

Apologise for the incident where you were stopped without a ticket on X DATE, say you are sorry, ask respectfully for a settlement.

Advice to the OP saying "hey be honest it'll make you feel better" could be very costly, and is, at best, very naive. I don't think it is wise to say anything unless presented with evidence of your wrongdoing.

 

[CloudySkies]

View attachment 100101

Attached it. Just says an incident.

Do they always ask for the occupation and NI number when it comes to cases of this sort? I remember the advice given to me (I'm in a similar but worse situation) was to not mention that I'm under a regulatory body because that might just make them want to inflate the settlement figure. But if I get a same-ish letter, I would have to tell them what my job is. Also, why do they ask for the NI number? Is it just to confirm the identity of the person or give them an idea of how much you're on?

 

[island]

Southeastern‘s standard letter requests these items of data, yes. One of the reasons is to head off claims of mistaken identity by passengers.

Whilst one is under no obligation to provide them (or any information at all), someone looking to secure an out-of-court settlement would generally be well-advised to cooperate fully.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also, why do they ask for the NI number? Is it just to confirm the identity of the person or give them an idea of how much you're on?

I don't 100% know for sure, but I would have thought it would not be possible for the Railway Company to know what your income was simply if you gave them your NI number. That would require access to HMRC income records etc.
others who may know better could clarify.

Perhaps if it ultimately went to court having that sort of info might more easily permit things like attachment of earnings orders to obtain court imposed penalties etc, but that's a different matter and may not be applicable at this stage.

However, I do agree with Island's point of view that in general co-operation is a good idea, but as I say I can't see that they could find out what your income was from your NI number anyway.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The letter asks for "any further comment" on the incident. I would simply state you are sorry that you were caught without a valid ticket on the date shown the letter, and wish to settle the matter out of court to the satisfaction of both parties.

Give no further details. Make no further admission.

Just a small, pedantic, point. Don't say "you're sorry you were caught" that could be interpreted as not being sorry you did it-just sorry you were found out!

 

[SillyTraveller]

Ok, thanks for all the advice guys. Ultimately I just want to put it right. I feel really remorseful and ashamed of the whole thing. It wasn’t right what I did, just hope they can see that too & that it’s out of character because it’s not something I’ve ever done before.

Do they always ask for the occupation and NI number when it comes to cases of this sort? I remember the advice given to me (I'm in a similar but worse situation) was to not mention that I'm under a regulatory body because that might just make them want to inflate the settlement figure. But if I get a same-ish letter, I would have to tell them what my job is. Also, why do they ask for the NI number? Is it just to confirm the identity of the person or give them an idea of how much you're on?

I just read your story (I tend not to read much on here now because i just scare myself). I think they ask for the NI number Incase you need to go to court but I think it’s standard procedure to ask that.
I’m not saying what we did is right at all and we both know that but I can’t believe how many people in the same profession are/have done it through the pandemic. I would like to stipulate that I’m not using that as a justification at all. I paid my normal full fare the whole time but not this occasion. I know others who have done it the whole time too. Obviously they were not caught but if you’re anything like me you will have beaten yourself up badly over it (more than a court could i think for me!), so be kind to yourself. We made a big mistake, we won’t do it again, it’s a life lesson. My view is if we tell the truth (which we have), cooperate and pay back what we owe we have to put it down as an error of judgement and a huge mistake. If you’re like me ive never done anything wrong in my life (don’t speed, never taken drugs, never stole anything etc etc), so for me this is something that is completely out of my character. The last year hasn’t been easy working in this environment (again, not an excuse) but that does have impact on your clarity of thinking of repercussions too to some extent I think. Hope it all goes okay for you. I’ll keep my post updated so it helps you too. Take care, the anxiety gets a bit easier to some extent.

 

[XAM2175]

Also, why do they ask for the NI number? Is it just to confirm the identity of the person or give them an idea of how much you're on?

I don't 100% know for sure, but I would have thought it would not be possible for the Railway Company to know what your income was simply if you gave them your NI number. That would require access to HMRC income records etc.

This is correct - the National Insurance number is a piece of corroborative information that can help in uniquely identifying one person and one person only, generally more so than some other identifiers because most people who are ordinarily resident in the UK can be expected to have one. The number itself discloses nothing and having it does not confer the ability to request information about the holder.

 

[Hadders]

I would keep your reply short and concise, and mention the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

 

[SillyTraveller]

Ok, so so far I have written the below. I feel like it is concise to the point but I don't know if it gets across how sorry I am, I feel like the only way I can do this is is if I babble on for ages, which clearly they do not want to hear. Also I know that they don't want a sob story and I am not going to give one, however I feel like my actions have been skewed by working in a high acute area during a very stressful pandemic (I am just finishing some counselling for this like many NHS staff) and I am NOT in any way saying that this is an excuse AT ALL but I don't know whether to add this in as a reason for my mind being slightly impaired?

Anyway here is the letter so far:

Dear Southeastern,

Thank you for your letter dated the 20/7/21, received on the 22/7/21 regarding an incident on 22/6/21. I can confirm that it was me who travelled and as requested I have filled out the information at the bottom of your letter.

I firstly wanted to express my sincere apologies for this incident. I have since learned that rail fare evasion costs both the railway and the taxpayer a significant amount of money and I am terribly ashamed that I have added to this. The decision I made was unacceptable and I am very sorry for the time and inconvenience I have cost your rail company. The actions I took are very out of character for me and have reflected considerably on it since it happened and have been very angry with myself.

I hope that you will allow me to settle the matter without the need for court action. I will be fully cooperative and engaging with you in any questions you may have. I hope that you will allow me to pay back what I owe Southeastern, including your administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

Once again, please accept my sincere apologies as a result of my actions and I hope that I am able to put this right with you. Please be assured that I will never, ever do this again.

Happy to take advice on this. You guys will know better than I do.

Thank you.

 

[Haywain]

Ok, so so far I have written the below. I feel like it is concise to the point but I don't know if it gets across how sorry I am, I feel like the only way I can do this is is if I babble on for ages, which clearly they do not want to hear. Also I know that they don't want a sob story and I am not going to give one, however I feel like my actions have been skewed by working in a high acute area during a very stressful pandemic (I am just finishing some counselling for this like many NHS staff) and I am NOT in any way saying that this is an excuse AT ALL but I don't know whether to add this in as a reason for my mind being slightly impaired?

Anyway here is the letter so far:

Dear Southeastern,

Thank you for your letter dated the 20/7/21, received on the 22/7/21 regarding an incident on 22/6/21. I can confirm that it was me who travelled and as requested I have filled out the information at the bottom of your letter.

I firstly wanted to express my sincere apologies for this incident. I have since learned that rail fare evasion costs both the railway and the taxpayer a significant amount of money and I am terribly ashamed that I have added to this. The decision I made was unacceptable and I am very sorry for the time and inconvenience I have cost your rail company. The actions I took are very out of character for me and have reflected considerably on it since it happened and have been very angry with myself.

I hope that you will allow me to settle the matter without the need for court action. I will be fully cooperative and engaging with you in any questions you may have. I hope that you will allow me to pay back what I owe Southeastern, including your administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

Once again, please accept my sincere apologies as a result of my actions and I hope that I am able to put this right with you. Please be assured that I will never, ever do this again.

Happy to take advice on this. You guys will know better than I do.

Thank you.

I think that is a very good letter.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think that is a very good letter.

As do I - brief, courteous, apologetic and clear.

Now get it in the post! You're close to the end of the seven days allowed to respond, so get it posted sooner rather than later. You might want to send it by one of the Royal Mail's 'signed-for' options so that you know when it gets to Southeastern - see https://www.royalmail.com/sending/uk/signed-for-1st-class

 

[SillyTraveller]

Thank you. Yes, definitely sending today 100% and definitely will send next day delivery.
No need to add anything else?

 

[Haywain]

No need to add anything else?

No, it's just fine as it is.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Thank you. Yes, definitely sending today 100% and definitely will send next day delivery.
No need to add anything else?

Do remember that "signed for" isn't guaranteed next day. It usually is, just not guaranteed.
Special Delivery is guaranteed next day, but is more expensive. A lot more expensive.
Signed For really adds nothing that proof of posting (which is free) gives. Arguably they can't say they didn't get it when they did, but that's very unlikely anyway and not really worth paying extra for in my opinion.

 

[SillyTraveller]

Do remember that "signed for" isn't guaranteed next day. It usually is, just not guaranteed.
Special Delivery is guaranteed next day, but is more expensive. A lot more expensive.
Signed For really adds nothing that proof of posting (which is free) gives. Arguably they can't say they didn't get it when they did, but that's very unlikely anyway and not really worth paying extra for in my opinion.

Ok thank you. I will see what they say at the post office. I just want to get it there ASAP.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2021 ==

My mum is a solicitor and she has changed it slightly, I am not sure what your thoughts on this are:

Dear Southeastern,

Thank you for your letter dated the 20/7/21, received on the 22/7/21 regarding an incident on 22/6/21. I can confirm that it was me who travelled and as requested I have filled out the information at the bottom of your letter.

I firstly wanted to express my sincere apologies for this incident. I have spent the time since reflecting on the situation and I understand how not paying your full fare impacts on the rail company. The action I took was very much out of character for me, and can only think that the pressure that the last 18 months has had on me as an ******** (job description here, too personal to add in as it might identify where I work) affected my personal judgement. Of course, this is not an excuse for what I have done.

I have been travelling with South eastern for xxxxxxxxx and am grateful to the drivers so that I can get to work through this pandemic. I have evidence of me paying full fare apart from a handful of occasions before being stopped, it is important to me that you know this.

On the day of the incident I was on my way to work to start a 12 hours shift, I thought I was being interviewed by a police officer, which made me nervous and I was also concerned that I was going to be late for work, therefore much of what I said is a blur. Waiting for your letter and subsequently after this waiting for your decision will cause me huge emotional and psychological strain, as I said this is because I am an honourable honest person and have never been in a situation like this, there can be nobody that is angrier at me than myself.

In providing you with a background to me I humbly ask that you allow me to settle the matter without the need for court action. I will be fully cooperative and engaging with you in any questions you may have. I hope that you will allow me to pay back what I owe Southeastern.

Once again, please accept my sincere apologies as a result of my actions and I hope that I am able to put this right with you. Please be assured that I will never, ever do this again.