Sunday a ATW train free day again

[Greenback]

Unfortunately I think you, and Greenback's similar comments above, are accurate. Unions are within every right to fight to retain any privilege or allowance that their workers have. TOCs should do more work to introduce Sundays as part of normal rostas and adequately compensate staff for this change, but in the meantime I suspect it's easier to blame unions whilst only making half an effort as the changes would be better for public service and not necessarily for profit!

Exactly. tbtc's comment re longer franchises are pertinent too. There may be more incentive for TOC's to get to grips with Sudnays (if they haven't already) when they may have more chance to recoup some of the initial outlay down the years.

One thing is certain, no business will want to negotiaite anyhting that doesn;t benefit their balance sheet in some way. Unfortunately, despite what Mr Williams says, the views of passengers seem to be the least important on the privatised railway.

 

[Tom B]

I actually like working weekends and having days off in the week - particularly down in England with the horribly restrictive Sunday trading rules, you can do so much more with a weekday off. Perhaps those with families etc think differently. I'm also no stranger to overtime, having once put in a timesheet for 102 hours in a week. (Not, I hasten to add, on the railways).

In a previous discussion, someone mentioned that pay may be related to it - decades ago, railway pay was below the average so staff would want to work the overtime to get more cash in - now railway pay is very good in comparison to other industries, so the motivation to do extra hours isn't there.

It does flummox me slightly that a company should rely on the good will of staff to work overtime in order to cover one day of the week; surely that's not good from a business continuity point of view, or whatnot.

 

[TheBigD]

having once put in a timesheet for 102 hours in a week...

Don't you have a social life?

 

[paul1609]

That is a silly and ignorant observation. My employment contract says I do not have to work on a Sunday. Therefore, if I don't want to, I won't. It is not possible to force someone to work when they don't have to. If the place you work suddenly starts 7-day operation of your job, I presume you'll work Sundays for standard pay or resign then. What you should have said is, it is reckless to run a 7-day business operation without contractually obliging your staff to work 7 days a week.

whilst I agree with what you say, it's ludicrous in 2010 that people whose job entails a huge subsidy from the public purse are still allowed contracts that dont provide for 7 day working. I dont really see that providing a rail service should be any different from any other public service.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

whilst I agree with what you say, it's ludicrous in 2010 that people whose job entails a huge subsidy from the public purse are still allowed contracts that dont provide for 7 day working. I dont really see that providing a rail service should be any different from any other public service.

"Allowed"!!! Last time I checked when I applied for my job many moons ago Sunday was not part of the working week, thats the contract I signed and without decent Compensation I will not give up my sunday, that is my RIGHT, always makes me laugh people criticise folks on the railway, we all sign a contract when we start employment, it is up to that company to compensate its employees if they want to change the contract, if the companies are not willing, then why on earth would anyone in their right mind give something up for nothing, people should have a go at the toc's and NOT the staff, most staff would give up their sundays if it was deemed worthwhile, but most toc's do not deem it worthwhile hence the Status Quo

 

[Tom B]

Don't you have a social life?

I'm pretty sure I squeezed a quick trip to the pub in there, too!

 

[Greenback]

I actually like working weekends and having days off in the week - particularly down in England with the horribly restrictive Sunday trading rules, you can do so much more with a weekday off. Perhaps those with families etc think differently. I'm also no stranger to overtime, having once put in a timesheet for 102 hours in a week. (Not, I hasten to add, on the railways).

In a previous discussion, someone mentioned that pay may be related to it - decades ago, railway pay was below the average so staff would want to work the overtime to get more cash in - now railway pay is very good in comparison to other industries, so the motivation to do extra hours isn't there.

It does flummox me slightly that a company should rely on the good will of staff to work overtime in order to cover one day of the week; surely that's not good from a business continuity point of view, or whatnot.

The pay situation is also a very relevant point. When I was on the railway, Sundays were extra at 1.75 time, which was very useful for a low paid booking clerk! If I worked 3 Sundays in four weeks (voluntarily) it made a real difference to my take home pay.

Now, if I was on a higher salary and a lower payment for working Sundays (voluntarily) I may not have been quite so keen to work them! If I'd been on an even higer slary and Sundays were compulsory, but inside the working week meaning I still I had 2 days off guaranteed a week, I'd have been quite happy as well.

People in general are much more family focussed now than in years gone by. It didn;t used to be considered manly to want to spend time with your wife and kids, but these attitudes are much less commonplace now.

"Allowed"!!! Last time I checked when I applied for my job many moons ago Sunday was not part of the working week, thats the contract I signed and without decent Compensation I will not give up my sunday, that is my RIGHT, always makes me laugh people criticise folks on the railway, we all sign a contract when we start employment, it is up to that company to compensate its employees if they want to change the contract, if the companies are not willing, then why on earth would anyone in their right mind give something up for nothing, people should have a go at the toc's and NOT the staff, most staff would give up their sundays if it was deemed worthwhile, but most toc's do not deem it worthwhile hence the Status Quo

I don't think allowed is the right word to use. It implies that it is the staff who are responsible for the conditions in the contract, rather than the employer. Every time I have obtained a job I have had absolutely no influence on the contract I signed! As an employer now, I have a lot of influence on the contracts of my staff!

 

[tbtc]

The pay situation is also a very relevant point. When I was on the railway, Sundays were extra at 1.75 time, which was very useful for a low paid booking clerk! If I worked 3 Sundays in four weeks (voluntarily) it made a real difference to my take home pay.

Now, if I was on a higher salary and a lower payment for working Sundays (voluntarily) I may not have been quite so keen to work them! If I'd been on an even higer slary and Sundays were compulsory, but inside the working week meaning I still I had 2 days off guaranteed a week, I'd have been quite happy as well.

I agree with you and Tom.

When I started working, I did 50/60 hours each week on £3.85 per hour. Now, I'm on a more reasonable wage and don't work anything like those hours.

Unions will never admit this, but rail wages have gone up considerably over the last ten/fifteen years (partly because different TOCs have to compete for staff, and have a bigger incentive not to have strikes). But bigger wages means less incentive to give up precious weekends etc.

 

[CarterUSM]

Funnily enough, i get paid my normal rest day working minimum payment for a sunday, or more if the hours dictate. I'm not complaining though. Don't get paid such a thing as overtime anymore!

 

[Dennis]

So are a lot of rail staff devout churchgoing Christians or is there something else special about Sundays? Time off with family seems a poor excuse to me. How many days a year to children actually attend school? Only about 200, so plenty of other opportunities to spend time with the family.

The rest of society is moving inexorably towards a 7 day week, the Keep Sunday Special campaign seems to have been defeated circa 1985.

As an aside, I'm slightly surprised that in todays multicultural, largely secular society Sundays should be so problematical anyway.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not working Sunday is not refusing work, I already work 4 days a week, and rest days/Sundays as I choose for extra money, but not volunteering to work your day off is not refusing to work. How is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

It is perceived by the public to be refusing work,and as 99% of all ATW trains
did not run last Sunday again, who can blame them, when they are shunted on to buses, doubling the journey time, or buses not even turning up,

 

[CarterUSM]

It is perceived by the public to be refusing work,and as 99% of all ATW trains
did not run last Sunday again, who can blame them, when they are shunted on to buses, doubling the journey time, or buses not even turning up,

Thats a good point Merlodlliw, but still not the fault of the staff that are being 'perceived ' to be refusing work.

 

[richw]

in the modern day lifestyle, as mentioned above, wouldnt people rather work sundays in the 4 day rota, and have a day off in the week when the stores and places are open. i always work sundays, admittedly in a completely different industry, because there is so little to do with a day off on a sunday compared to haveing 2-3 days in the week off, where there is so much to do!

 

[87015]

Thats a good point Merlodlliw, but still not the fault of the staff that are being 'perceived ' to be refusing work.

Yes must be all the fault of nasty management who won't give in to every union pay demand like wanting more money for driving over a new level crossing on a route being added to there card despite the fact they drive over umpteen other level crossings every day.

Very constructive ideology...

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes must be all the fault of nasty management who won't give in to every union pay demand like wanting more money for driving over a new level crossing on a route being added to there card despite the fact they drive over umpteen other level crossings every day.

Very constructive ideology...

I never implied that. But now that you mention it......


Anyway, if it really is that much of a problem, then something WILL be done about it, be it, negotiation, more staff, or new contracts.

 

[TDK]

Yes must be all the fault of nasty management who won't give in to every union pay demand like wanting more money for driving over a new level crossing on a route being added to there card despite the fact they drive over umpteen other level crossings every day.

Very constructive ideology...

The problem here is now that ATW are in the DB group the ATW drivers are looking at what the other divisions get, this has been brewing for a while when Arriva took over XC, an example here for instance, a driver from TOC "A" drives from a to b for 44k a year, a driver from TOC "B" drives the same route for 32k a year, it isn't rocket science why the ATW drivers are in dispute. As for the Sundays, I mentioned the unions do not want Sundays in the working week and as pointed out that is in fact incorrect, it's the drivers that do not and any union that imposes it or agrees with it will lose drivers. The unions of course want sundays in and a rest day working ban as such, this in turn employs more drivers but also gives the unions more subs, so work it out for yourself who is at fault. Drivers for not wanting Sundays in the working week, the unions for not negociating a sound deal or the TOC's for not offering a good deal. I still blame the TOC's as this could have easily been sorted out long ago but would have cost the TOC'smoney, now they are suffering because of their original contract drafting.

 

[Greenback]

I wonder whether there are that many drivers who don't want Sundays inside at any cost. Perhaps it is just a small but very vocal minority, maybe the drivers who attend every branch meeting and thus inflouence local policy? I don't know, but the drivers I do know are just interested in doing their job.

There is plenty of debate within ASLEF and the union movement as whole about the diesirability of everyone moving towards 7 day rosters. From what I see, hear and read amongst my contacts and on union websites, there does appear to be some staff who want Sundays to remain outside just so that they can work as many of them as they can. I think others have a more pragmatic and realistic attitude, although I think many realise that the current arrangements are a very useful bargainign chip when pay negotiations come around!

 

[scotsman]

The rest of society is moving inexorably towards a 7 day week, the Keep Sunday Special campaign seems to have been defeated circa 1985.

The Keep the Sabbath Holy brigade talk a load of crap!

The whole idea is keeping an entitlement - 2 rest days + Sunday if required. If you want it taken off, then there rightly has to be some compensation.

As for a case study on The Sabbath, have a look at the crew of the MV Isle of Lewis.

These crews work a rota of 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. Until 2009, the ferry never sailed on Sundays. The isles are highly religious, and when CalMac announced the Sunday sailings (one, instead of the usual Mon-Sat 2/3) they said any crew member who did not wish to work for religious reasons would not have to. One crew member requested this.

For the record, many of the Catering Ratings are RMT members.

 

[mumrar]

So are a lot of rail staff devout churchgoing Christians or is there something else special about Sundays? Time off with family seems a poor excuse to me. How many days a year to children actually attend school? Only about 200, so plenty of other opportunities to spend time with the family.

The rest of society is moving inexorably towards a 7 day week, the Keep Sunday Special campaign seems to have been defeated circa 1985.

As an aside, I'm slightly surprised that in todays multicultural, largely secular society Sundays should be so problematical anyway.

It doesn't matter what the reason is, as I've said at least three times, I do not have to justify what I do with my contracted day off to anyone but my wife probably. If I want to spend the day infront of the computer, or at a soft play centre or on the toilet, then I will.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think we have gone full circle on this, Ill suggest to my Council Leader,

"As a ratepayer, the Wrexham County Council ratepayers subsidy given to Arriva Trains Wales, to run the Wrexham/Bidston trains on Sunday, be withdrawn and replaced with a proper bus service, due to ATW being unable to run its contracted trains on Sundays" this would then ensure buses turned up to get the travelling public to a destination,

This would not be laughed at, I am sure Powys/Carmarthen/Gwynedd Councils to name a few might find this cheaper during this period of funding cuts.


my opinion

 

[TDK]

I think we have gone full circle on this, Ill suggest to my Council Leader,

"As a ratepayer, the Wrexham County Council ratepayers subsidy given to Arriva Trains Wales, to run the Wrexham/Bidston trains on Sunday, be withdrawn and replaced with a proper bus service, due to ATW being unable to run its contracted trains on Sundays" this would then ensure buses turned up to get the travelling public to a destination,

This would not be laughed at, I am sure Powys/Carmarthen/Gwynedd Councils to name a few might find this cheaper during this period of funding cuts.


my opinion

You may need to aquire the contract that ATW have regarding trains run on a Sunday before you approach any one

 

[merlodlliw]

You may need to aquire the contract that ATW have regarding trains run on a Sunday before you approach any one

The 0844/1114/21/14 are the three trains & return paid for by Wrexham County Council, it was a move to bring more people into the town on a Sunday.

ATW under the contract are only obliged to run 1314/1614 & 1844 services to Bidston.

This became public, when ATW stole a service off the late Chester to Wrexham service to run the 2114 service to Bidston, After the outcry ATW put on a new ex CTR Sunday service at 2204 to Wrexham, this being a busy train for students returning to the University & those returning to Chester at 2240 for connections,

 

[Tom B]

I presume/hope that if the company do not bother running a service, they get a proportion of the subsidy payment deducted?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Other non driving traincrew I've spoken too are generally less than impressed with their driver brethren, especially as some of them come from a depot where the drivers complain they don't have enough driving hours due to the depot being overmanned for the timetable on the line.

Has train driver pay rocketed to the same degree as infrastructure costs since privitisation?

 

[Flamingo]

When it suits management, we are heavily encouraged to work our booked Sundays - when it suits. However, a few weeks ago, train crew in my depot were told (with three days notice) that they were not required to work their booked Sunday as there were no turns for them due to engineering work - so tough, no overtime for you. (Booked Sundays are published on the off-duty up to six months in advance like all rostered shifts.)

The TOC's want to run trains (and take revenue) on Sundays, but are not prepared to pay the extra staff who would be required if they were to treat Sunday as another working day. We only get one day off on the weeks where we work our booked Sundays. Some depots have one in two Sundays rostered. Then to cap it all, if we are not required, the TOC can cancel us at three days notice, even if we have arranged our home and family life around working that shift.

If the TOC's don't feel obliged to bring us in on booked Sundays if it doesn't suit them, why should I feel any obligation to come in on a booked Sunday if it doesn't suit me?

 

[merlodlliw]

I presume/hope that if the company do not bother running a service, they get a proportion of the subsidy payment deducted?

Knowing how County Councils operate, I doubt they would be aware,until the public complain.

 

[TDK]

The 0844/1114/21/14 are the three trains & return paid for by Wrexham County Council, it was a move to bring more people into the town on a Sunday.

ATW under the contract are only obliged to run 1314/1614 & 1844 services to Bidston.

This became public, when ATW stole a service off the late Chester to Wrexham service to run the 2114 service to Bidston, After the outcry ATW put on a new ex CTR Sunday service at 2204 to Wrexham, this being a busy train for students returning to the University & those returning to Chester at 2240 for connections,

So, Bob, does ATW only have a binding contract to only run 3 trains on a Sunday outside their initial franchise agreement?

 

[Gareth Marston]

So, Bob, does ATW only have a binding contract to only run 3 trains on a Sunday outside their initial franchise agreement?

As were all aware ATW will only do "whats in the franchise agreement" unless someone else pays at hopefully above the going rate.

 

[tbtc]

As were all aware ATW will only do "whats in the franchise agreement" unless someone else pays at hopefully above the going rate.

Which, as I've said before is the same with Northern, with the old "Regional Railways" parts of FGW etc etc. ATW aren't different in that respect - in the way that they aren't the only TOC to have problems getting staff to run on a Sunday.

Wales isn't unique

 

[Greenback]

No it's not, but I think merlodlliw is also frustrated about the lack of trains on a Sunday due to engineering works. I don't know what is happening in West Wales, but almost every weekend the lines are closed overnight at the weekend, which involves road transport for all or part of the journey west of Swansea on Saturday nights. I cna understand why it may appear that ATW are simply not interested in running trains on Sundays!