Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[MotCO]

Also TfL seem to have accepted that garages do not yet have sufficient electric bus infrastructure, and it takes time to install it, so seem happy for new contracts to commence with conversion to electric bus many months after start date.

I presume an electric contract is more expensive than an 'existing diesel' contract, so TfL would not be in too much of a hurry for the new electric buses to be introduced.

 

[Goldfish62]

I presume an electric contract is more expensive than an 'existing diesel' contract, so TfL would not be in too much of a hurry for the new electric buses to be introduced.

It depends. If bidders do not have suitable existing diesel buses available then there's no option but to award based on new buses, which as explained are likely to be electric.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2021 ==

I suspect no one is even offering to make a hybrid to TfL spec anymore which is why there are no competitve bids with them.

ADL still offer the E400H to TfL spec.

 

[MotCO]

It depends. If bidders do not have suitable existing diesel buses available then there's no option but to award based on new buses, which as explained are likely to be electric.

But if they are the existing contractor, they will have diesel buses. They may start to get to be too old (not sure if TfL have an age limit), but reliability could start to reduce with age. One thing that I have found strange recently, is that London bus companies are selling TfL compliant buses to other London operators - in the past, they would just send them to other parts of the country. Thus there could be a supply of existing diesel buses.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much supply there is of smaller single decks - for example, when the Roundabout routes in Orpington come up for tender renewal in 2 years' time, will there be any non-time expired diesel buses available. The existing fleet is 2010 - 2012 mostly.

Conversely, are there any suitable small 9.0m electric buses? ADL's smallest E200 EV is 9.6m long. Are the Mellor Strata robust enough?

 

[Goldfish62]

But if they are the existing contractor, they will have diesel buses.

If they've served two contract terns they won't be accepted. In fact anything more than 15-16 years old at the end of the contract term being bid for is unlikely to be accepted.

On this basis existing bidders are often unable to offer bids based on existing vehicles.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Conversely, are there any suitable small 9.0m electric buses? ADL's smallest E200 EV is 9.6m long.

Switch Mobility are advertising that both their Solo and MetroCity are available in lengths of less than 9 meters (Solo is 7.8-9.9m and MetroCity is 8.7-11.5). Both are advertised as having a greater range than the ADL/BYD E200EV too (both Switch vehicles have a range of "up to 190 miles" with the E200EV having "up to 160 miles" on one charge).
(Information for Switch vehicles found on the Current Switch Vehicles page, and for ADL vehicles found in the specification sheet, accessed from the E200EV page.)

 

[GusB]

If referring to an external source you should put the text in QUOTE tags, provide details of the source (a hyperlink, if possible) and make a relevant comment to promote discussion.

 

[Goldfish62]

Switch Mobility are advertising that both their Solo and MetroCity are available in lengths of less than 9 meters (Solo is 7.8-9.9m and MetroCity is 8.7-11.5). Both are advertised as having a greater range than the ADL/BYD E200EV too (both Switch vehicles have a range of "up to 190 miles" with the E200EV having "up to 160 miles" on one charge).
(Information for Switch vehicles found on the Current Switch Vehicles page, and for ADL vehicles found in the specification sheet, accessed from the E200EV page.)

So essentially the same lengths as the diesel range, given that the 7.1m Solo was deleted a couple of years ago.

 

[Jordan Adam]

So essentially the same lengths as the diesel range, given that the 7.1m Solo was deleted a couple of years ago.

Probably because they are the exact same vehicles underneath minus the running gear. One of the main selling points of Optare's products is that the drivetrains are easily interchangeable between diesel and electric. Theoretically an operator could buy a 5 year old diesel Solo SR, convert it to the electric drivetrain and it would be the exact same as a brand new Solo EV.

 

[Mikey C]

The bottom line is no new diesels. As hybrid single decks don't really work it means for new single decks electric is really the only option. As mentioned above hybrid is still an option for new double deck bids, but as I understand it operators are pricing electric so competitively it hadn't for a while been worth awarding based on hybrids.

In respect of existing vehicles offered as alternative bids pretty much anything still goes, including diesel.

Why is that the case? I don't see why ADL couldn't have produced a hybrid E200 if TfL has insisted 7 years ago that all single deckers had to be hybrid

But if they are the existing contractor, they will have diesel buses. They may start to get to be too old (not sure if TfL have an age limit), but reliability could start to reduce with age. One thing that I have found strange recently, is that London bus companies are selling TfL compliant buses to other London operators - in the past, they would just send them to other parts of the country. Thus there could be a supply of existing diesel buses.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much supply there is of smaller single decks - for example, when the Roundabout routes in Orpington come up for tender renewal in 2 years' time, will there be any non-time expired diesel buses available. The existing fleet is 2010 - 2012 mostly.

Conversely, are there any suitable small 9.0m electric buses? ADL's smallest E200 EV is 9.6m long. Are the Mellor Strata robust enough?

I think the tendering process is going to become quite messy, due to future electrification rules and TfL's dodgy finances.

My area of NW London seems to have lot of aging buses. Metroline have masses of 10.2m 2008-2010 E200s for example, and very few newer E200MMCs, so it's not as if there are "newer" existing buses to be cascaded to replace the older ones.

 

[Jordan Adam]

As hybrid single decks don't really work it means for new single decks electric is really the only option. As mentioned above hybrid is still an option for new double deck bids, but as I understand it operators are pricing electric so competitively it hadn't for a while been worth awarding based on hybrids.

Why is that the case? I don't see why ADL couldn't have produced a hybrid E200 if TfL has insisted 7 years ago that all single deckers had to be hybrid

ADL did produce the E350H, although only 27 were ever built for the UK - 22 of them operate here with Stagecoach Bluebird. They're generally very reliable buses and have never went wrong for Bluebird. They even use them on some longer distance work in Aberdeenshire, for example for the past three days the 14:55 10 from Aberdeen to Keith and 16:55 return journey has been operated by 29021 or 29022, that's a round trip of around 100 miles and they manage it fine.

The issue with past Hybrid buses is they use technology which has fallen obsolete, Hybrids now are mostly plug-ins with the ability to run on Electric only, whereas with the E200H/E350H/E400H the engine has to be running at all times. ADL are now offering a Enviro400ER which is essentially a plug-in Hybrid however it's arguably game five years too late to the market as almost all major operators are swiftly moving to Battery and Fuel Cell Electrics. You then also had the Volvo B5LH which while decent enough vehicles are woeful on start-stop work with their clunky I-Shift gearboxes which are designed for HGVs and coaches not a city bus.

 

[computerSaysNo]

ADL did produce the E350H, although only 27 were ever built for the UK - 22 of them operate here with Stagecoach Bluebird. They're generally very reliable buses and have never went wrong for Bluebird. They even use them on some longer distance work in Aberdeenshire, for example for the past three days the 14:55 10 from Aberdeen to Keith and 16:55 return journey has been operated by 29021 or 29022, that's a round trip of around 100 miles and they manage it fine.

Can the E350H go as fast as the E200/E300? I'm sure I've seen messages on here in the past which I've taken to imply that some older hybrid vehicles can't go as fast and so aren't used on rural routes if avoidable, I'm not sure how true that is though.

You then also had the Volvo B5LH which while decent enough vehicles are woeful on start-stop work with their clunky I-Shift gearboxes which are designed for HGVs and coaches not a city bus.

Couldn't the B5LH have been bought with a different gearbox though? I'm sure the standard B5TL was available with a choice of gearboxes, both fully automatic and automated manual, so it would make sense to me that the B5LH would also be available with a choice.

 

[Surreyman]

ADLs site at Slyfield, Guildford has large 'To Let' signs outside, "157,000 sq ft to let".
No idea how much of the site this includes.

 

[Goldfish62]

Couldn't the B5LH have been bought with a different gearbox though? I'm sure the standard B5TL was available with a choice of gearboxes, both fully automatic and automated manual, so it would make sense to me that the B5LH would also be available with a choice.

No, it's an integral part of the hybrid driveline.

 

[Eyersey468]

ADLs site at Slyfield, Guildford has large 'To Let' signs outside, "157,000 sq ft to let".
No idea how much of the site this includes.

Do ADL own the site or rent it?

 

[computerSaysNo]

No, it's an integral part of the hybrid driveline.

Ahh right, didn't know that, thanks.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Can the E350H go as fast as the E200/E300? I'm sure I've seen messages on here in the past which I've taken to imply that some older hybrid vehicles can't go as fast and so aren't used on rural routes if avoidable, I'm not sure how true that is though.

The 12 plate examples (29001-19) do 46MPH while the three 63 plates (29020-22) do 52MPH, so while the top speed isn't the greatest they're equally not that much slower than many of the conventional diesel buses in the fleet. The E350Hs by far work best in the city, but my point more was that if needed they can be used on long rural routes without any problem. It's a shame more were not built as they're fantastic city buses, especially given they have a low floor through the entire bus with no steps.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The 12 plate examples (29001-19) do 46MPH while the three 63 plates (29020-22) do 52MPH, so while the top speed isn't the greatest they're equally not that much slower than many of the conventional diesel buses in the fleet. The E350Hs by far work best in the city, but my point more was that if needed they can be used on long rural routes without any problem. It's a shame more were not built as they're fantastic city buses, especially given they have a low floor through the entire bus with no steps.

Ah right, is the top speed limited by the drivetrain then or by the maximum power output of the engine? (Also, are the original product lines/specifications available online anywhere? I tried looking at the ADL website using the Wayback Machine a while ago but it wouldn't load the ADL website correctly.)

 

[Jordan Adam]

Ah right, is the top speed limited by the drivetrain then or by the maximum power output of the engine? (Also, are the original product lines/specifications available online anywhere? I tried looking at the ADL website using the Wayback Machine a while ago but it wouldn't load the ADL website correctly.)

The Enviro350H is a series Hybrid so the engine purely acts as a generator with the bus using 100% electric propulsion. It's essentially the same as a battery electric vehicle but with a engine instead of excessive amounts of batteries.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I understand that, my question is though, is it the diesel engine that limits the overall maximum power output and maximum road speed (the alternator/electric motors could handle more power but the diesel engine can't supply any more) or is it the rest of the drivetrain that limits the max power/road speed (the diesel engine is limited in its maximum output to prevent damage to the alternator/electric motors)?
It's not really that important, I was just wondering what the limiting factor was.

 

[GALLANTON]

Would appear Whitelaws are in the process of receiving the first short MCV bodied B8rles. Photo shows a Whitelaws B8RLE.

G11WHW

Seen on delivery on the M74 at Uddingston is brand new MCV EvoRa bodied Volvo B8RLE G11WHW for Whitelaw of Stonehouse.

www.flickr.com

 

[Jordan Adam]

I understand that, my question is though, is it the diesel engine that limits the overall maximum power output and maximum road speed (the alternator/electric motors could handle more power but the diesel engine can't supply any more) or is it the rest of the drivetrain that limits the max power/road speed (the diesel engine is limited in its maximum output to prevent damage to the alternator/electric motors)?
It's not really that important, I was just wondering what the limiting factor was.

I couldn't say for certain but i'd imagine it's more down to the electric motors. The engine used in the E350H is the same 4 cylinder Cummins ISB unit used in most Enviro200s. Most Battery Electric buses have the same limitations to top speed.

Would appear Whitelaws are in the process of receiving the first short MCV bodied B8rles. Photo shows a Whitelaws B8RLE.

G11WHW

Seen on delivery on the M74 at Uddingston is brand new MCV EvoRa bodied Volvo B8RLE G11WHW for Whitelaw of Stonehouse.

www.flickr.com

These are the second batch, Sanders Coaches in East Anglia have already taken delivery of 4 short examples a few months ago.

Photo of a Sanders 10.8M Evora.

Sanders Coaches: 520 / BV21OOC

Sanders Coaches - Volvo B8RLE / MCV eVoRa - 520 / BV21OOC seen in Sheringham operating the 'Coast Hopper' CH1 service to Cormer on July 26th 2021

www.flickr.com

 

[GusB]

I think we should draw the discussion about the Enviro 350H to a close, considering that it's no longer within the current Alexander-Dennis product line-up. We already have quite a few threads that discuss buses that are no longer in production, so feel free to start a new one if necessary and try to keep this one for more current affairs.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Do ADL own the site or rent it?

They sold it about 20 years ago and rented it back. As far as I know they have about 4 years left on the lease that they are hoping to get out of. All that's left in there are about 6 buses that are basically test vehicles and some stock/scrap that is waiting to be disposed of.

 

[Eyersey468]

They sold it about 20 years ago and rented it back. As far as I know they have about 4 years left on the lease that they are hoping to get out of. All that's left in there are about 6 buses that are basically test vehicles and some stock/scrap that is waiting to be disposed of.

Thanks

 

[cnjb8]

Would appear Whitelaws are in the process of receiving the first short MCV bodied B8rles. Photo shows a Whitelaws B8RLE.

G11WHW

Seen on delivery on the M74 at Uddingston is brand new MCV EvoRa bodied Volvo B8RLE G11WHW for Whitelaw of Stonehouse.

www.flickr.com

These are the same length as some of the Evoras on the way for Stagecoach in Orkney

 

[Blindtraveler]

These might need sampling at some point in the not too distant once we get some Jen about what routes they're on

 

[GALLANTON]

These might need sampling at some point in the not too distant once we get some Jen about what routes they're on

I'd imagine they'll be used on any of Whitelaws routes, it'll probably be a case of going to Hamilton bus station and just waiting for one to appear.

 

[Beemax]

It's interesting looking at the Optare website that there's absolutely no acknowledgement of 'Switch' vehicles, only diesel Solos and Metrocities.. You'd expect a statement along the lines of 'if you're looking for electric versions of our vehicles please see the following link...' .......but nothing. Are the companies going to separate completely?

 

[Mikey C]

It's interesting looking at the Optare website that there's absolutely no acknowledgement of 'Switch' vehicles, only diesel Solos and Metrocities.. You'd expect a statement along the lines of 'if you're looking for electric versions of our vehicles please see the following link...' .......but nothing. Are the companies going to separate completely?

There is if you scroll down the page

Optare PLC

Advanced and reliable passenger vehicles, designed for a global market.

www.optare.com

I find the double branding a bit bizarre, but it's interesting that the Metrodecker now only appears on the Switch page, as presumably they've given up trying to sell the diesel version!

 

[cnjb8]

There is if you scroll down the page

Optare PLC

Advanced and reliable passenger vehicles, designed for a global market.

www.optare.com

I find the double branding a bit bizarre, but it's interesting that the Metrodecker now only appears on the Switch page, as presumably they've given up trying to sell the diesel version!

Makes sense, considering most of them are electric