Far North Sleeper - DMU?

[Irascible]

Now there’s a challenge. I’m thinking of on demand Helicopters with beds in...

I'm sure there's to-be-retired medevac choppers that still have Useful life.

 

[option]

Why wouldn't you just use the ferry to Aberdeen?
You can arrive into Aberdeen at 7am on the overnight ferry from Kirkwall, & be in Edinburgh by 10:30. Less than 12hours end to end.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Why wouldn't you just use the ferry to Aberdeen?
You can arrive into Aberdeen at 7am on the overnight ferry from Kirkwall, & be in Edinburgh by 10:30. Less than 12hours end to end.

Theoretically for a couple of reasons. The Scrabster-Stromness and Pentland ferries boats run several times a day but the Aberdeen one is only a few times a week, and the journey time from the Central belt can be less. The main issue is that getting there is a lot more awkward and complicated, taking a couple of trains and a boat where the timings aren't necessarily in sync. A direct boat train or sleeper would take the hassle out of it and make the route a lot more attractive. Caithness could also do with improved links to the rest of the country.

But, for various reasons it's not gonna work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2021 ==

Was there ever a sleeper on the Far North line?

The Highland Railway had a couple of unusual Pullman sleeper coaches that I think were used on that route (Balmoral and Dunrobin), but I can't remember where I read that.

Other than that, there was the Jellicoe express and wartime troop trains for sure. The Duke of Sutherland also semi-regularly operated his own train with sleeping accommodation, or specials for his guests.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think the underfloor engines would complete defeat the purpose of a sleeper train, but a train with an intermediate power pack car like on the 755s could work I guess.

Additional sound deadening and thicker carpets would mostly get around that issue.

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

The Highland Railway had a couple of unusual Pullman sleeper coaches that I think were used on that route (Balmoral and Dunrobin), but I can't remember where I read that.

Other than that, there was the Jellicoe express and wartime troop trains for sure. The Duke of Sutherland also semi-regularly operated his own train with sleeping accommodation, or specials for his guests.

Vallance's The Highland Railway says there was a Wick-Inverness (in that direction only) sleeper introduced in May 1878, but it only lasted a few months.

 

[philthetube]

Virtually everyone on the far north line is either local or going for the ride,a sleeper misses both these markets.

 

[gingerheid]

Just spent a pleasurable half hour reacquainting myself with the middle thread, and the comparison with an on demand helicopter service. I must have been on the cheap wine that weekend

What this thread is lacking is identification of a really specialist target market in a manner that's just not really thought through at all. I don't know if someone can come with something better, but the best I can think of is something like:

- a link between Great Yarmouth, Hull and Invergordon because there might be people that might work in the offshore industry that might want to travel between the three
- a Cumbrian Coast - Far North sleeper, because there might be people that worked in the nuclear industry that might have links between the two places and might want to travel between them.

Ofc the thing we need to make this work is an implausible re-opening of a route that doesn't really exist any more and closed for a good reason, or a strange technology. I can't really think of anything for the first, so I'm wondering if the MV Pentalina could be modified to carry the 158 sleeper train, so that people could remain asleep on board until the ferry arrived in the Orkneys?

Additionally, this could work EVEN better if some other completely uncommercial project with a vague historical basis happened in order to make it viable. Have there ever been and shipping links between Invergordon and any ports in Norway?

On a serious note, I feel sorry for the people that have to prepare reports demonstrating serious consideration of proposals like this.

 

[Journeyman]

You forgot to mention class 442s and reopening Woodhead!

 

[CW2]

Is there space for a hovercraft in this thread? I'm thinking of a hovercraft train ferry so the class 153 sleeper could provide direct rail + sea sleeping accomodation to the Shetlands.

 

[Irascible]

Is there space for a hovercraft in this thread? I'm thinking of a hovercraft train ferry so the class 153 sleeper could provide direct rail + sea sleeping accomodation to the Shetlands.

Amphibious 153s, perhaps? I mean, the corrosion issue can't be too hard to sort out surely.

 

[Journeyman]

Amphibious 153s, perhaps? I mean, the corrosion issue can't be too hard to sort out surely.

Deploy the inflatable skirts!

 

[Irascible]

Deploy the inflatable skirts!

Is anyone any good at poster painting? I'd *love* to see a mock 1980s BR poster advertising this service...

 

[JKF]

Is there space for a hovercraft in this thread? I'm thinking of a hovercraft train ferry so the class 153 sleeper could provide direct rail + sea sleeping accomodation to the Shetlands.

I had considered adding the use of one of the old giant cross channel hovercrafts for the Dornoch crossing to my suggestion, but not sure it would fit a sleeper HST.

 

[Irascible]

I had considered adding the use of one of the old giant cross channel hovercrafts for the Dornoch crossing to my suggestion, but not sure it would fit a sleeper HST.

There were four, weren't there? you could couple all the hovercraft together & load it that way.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There were four, weren't there? you could couple all the hovercraft together & load it that way.

There were six SRN-4s built, but only one survives - and hasn't now been flown for a few months short of 20 years...

I'll happily sell you a fleet of NGH*, though, but you'll have to pay for the final detail design costs...


*http://www.hover-gen.com/test-static/

This is an artist’s impression of a new giant hovercraft currently undergoing the early stages of development. The pictured version is approximately equal to the size of the SRN4 Mark 2, but with greater capacity. A stretched version with the lower deck given over 100% to cars would more or less match the capacity of the Seacat vessels, but with SRN4 type performance.

 

[JKF]

There were four, weren't there? you could couple all the hovercraft together & load it that way.

Or use the four of them as the basis of a pontoon bridge, a mobile pontoon bridge which can also provide a crossing of the Cromarty Firth from Nigg to the Black Isle earlier in the journey.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Oh god now I'm embarrassed to have started this thread...

Any thoughts on implementing the AmphibiSprinter? The water might drown out the noise of the underfloor engines enough for passengers to sleep, though the pitching and rolling might be slightly uncomfortable - has anyone ever had a sleeper train with hammocks???

Or, we could instead develop a Sea-73 (it rhymes!) and tow a waterproofed 442 behind it...

 

[Andy Pacer]

Obvious answer to what question ? What demand is there, on a route which even now has just four through trains a day, which would justify the huge expense of providing and operating an overnight service, bearing in mind that Scotland/London sleepers only survive thanks to massive public subsidy ?

Good point. I'd be tempted to simply propose an overnight trip (as a standard train) and see what the uptake is initially.

 

[gingerheid]

Oh god now I'm embarrassed to have started this thread...

Don't worry. Your username is totally appropriate for the discussion

 

[XAM2175]

Oh god now I'm embarrassed to have started this thread...

At least you caught on quickly, rather than doubling-down on your position!

 

[Bald Rick]

Having thought about it a little more, none of these proposals are sufficiently ambitious.

There is a Spaceport proposed in Sutherland, about 40 miles north of the Far North Line at Lairg. Class 153s have been converted to carry bikes, so I’m sure one could be converted to carry a couple of beds and some rocket engines. A decent bit of new line to give them a run up, and a sleeper service from London to Orbit must be possible.

 

[Irascible]

Or use the four of them as the basis of a pontoon bridge, a mobile pontoon bridge which can also provide a crossing of the Cromarty Firth from Nigg to the Black Isle earlier in the journey.

A hoverbridge! geinuis!

I'll happily sell you a fleet of NGH*, though, but you'll have to pay for the final detail design costs...

Ooh, I shall follow this story with glee - who knows what it's final proposed form will end up as.

Oh god now I'm embarrassed to have started this thread...

Any thoughts on implementing the AmphibiSprinter? The water might drown out the noise of the underfloor engines enough for passengers to sleep, though the pitching and rolling might be slightly uncomfortable - has anyone ever had a sleeper train with hammocks???

Or, we could instead develop a Sea-73 (it rhymes!) and tow a waterproofed 442 behind it...

It's all good fun I'm still chuckling at the idea that anyone could sleep on a helicopter. Perhaps semi-retired air ambulance staff could keep passengers under anaesthesia.... sleep guaranteed!

You could sling hammocks above seats, and they'd deal with a lot of movement from bad riding & rough track. ( In all seriousness I'd love to take a train journey while lying in a hammock... )

 

[Highlandspring]

Personally I think the best way to serve the Far North with a sleeper service is with a portion of the existing Fort William train. You’d spilt at Spean Bridge and run via the rebuilt Invergarry & Fort Augustus then a new alignment along the north side of Loch Ness to join the Far North at Clachnaharry. Obviously you wouldn’t be able to serve Inverness station but that’s not a problem because by far the biggest market is folk going to/from Brora, Invershin and Scotscalder.

The southbound service would depart Wick at 15:30 in place of the 16:00 sprinter and the northbound service would arrive in Wick at 18:30 in place of the 14:00 sprinter from Inverness having departed Spean Bridge at 10:00. Note non-sleeping car passengers wouldn’t be permitted on either service. Obviously to run these you’d need two sets of coaches and four locos because of the gradients.

 

[zwk500]

Personally I think the best way to serve the Far North with a sleeper service is with a portion of the existing Fort William train. You’d spilt at Spean Bridge and run via the rebuilt Invergarry & Fort Augustus then a new alignment along the north side of Loch Ness to join the Far North at Clachnaharry. Obviously you wouldn’t be able to serve Inverness station but that’s not a problem because by far the biggest market is folk going to/from Brora, Invershin and Scotscalder.

 

[mcmad]

Now there’s a challenge. I’m thinking of on demand Helicopters with beds in...

probably cheaper that running a sleeper on Far North to be fair.

 

[dazzler]

Oh god now I'm embarrassed to have started this thread...

Any thoughts on implementing the AmphibiSprinter? The water might drown out the noise of the underfloor engines enough for passengers to sleep, though the pitching and rolling might be slightly uncomfortable -

...and it'll be even worse once you get off the rails and out to sea...

I'll get my Oilskin & Sou'wester!

 

[PeterC]

Good point. I'd be tempted to simply propose an overnight trip (as a standard train) and see what the uptake is initially.

Far too sensible.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Far too sensible.

*takes a bow*

Seriously though you're right. There is always the mindset of either do nothing, or go over the top.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good point. I'd be tempted to simply propose an overnight trip (as a standard train) and see what the uptake is initially.

The trouble with that is that there would be several hundred people wanting to do it, many of who frequent this forum, purely to have the one off experience of a sleeper on the FNL. It would not be representative of real demand at all.

 

[Journeyman]

The trouble with that is that there would be several hundred people wanting to do it, many of who frequent this forum, purely to have the one off experience of a sleeper on the FNL. It would not be representative of real demand at all.

Absolutely. The demand for boat trains on that route is practically zero.