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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

swt_passenger

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Software development is a mine-field. If you took the exact same software from one Aventra and put it on a new build which had 1 or two different components and I guarantee it will not work. Its not as simple as changing a line of code as each piece of code is dependent on another, thats why so many companies dont change computer systems of components. Cash machines still use 20 year old Windows NT and components that are the size of old TV's because they know it works. Trains however, we want new things, new PIS, wifi, aircon, powersaving lighting, CCTV, USB and plug sockets, power management, anti slip, remote monitoring and lower costs. Thats a lot of things to be integrated into one system. Thats a lot more than is going on in your PC and Windows is about 3GB of code and supported by a team of thousands. I could go on for hours, but give the Derby guys a break, software development and testing is hard which is why it pays well!
If I'm right, the 701's are the sole DC only variant of the family, which if so, could easily be the source of the problem.
Not necessarily, the 701s include a couple of dual voltage variants for initial type approval purposes, (just as the 707s did), the rest will be fitted “for but not with” dual voltage capability.
 
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RailUK Forums

Energy

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If I'm right, the 701's are the sole DC only variant of the family, which if so, could easily be the source of the problem.
701s are effectively dual voltage with the pantograph equipment removed, some of the 710 are also dual voltage.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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All the Aventras have standard MITRAC inverter packages. DC is either plugged in direct from the third rail to the VVVF inverter or rectified first from the output of the transformer so this shouldn't be an underlying reliability issue.

The cab was changed for the 701 but can't see the basic components of the cab being any different than a 720 although the layout of controls, gauges, screens may have been altered so software ought to be unaffected. What was new on the 701's was the ABDO system so is the source of problems although i guess thats less of an issue at this stage of getting reliability into basic functionality of the train.
 

crablab

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The TCMS on the 710s, 720s, and 701s ought to be almost completely rewritten.
Rewriting software from scratch is significantly more expensive, time consuming and risky than adapting and extending existing software.
You lose all the prior knowledge, known issues, workarounds etc. that's been developed whilst building up that software for a start.
There's a reason Windows is still based on NT (80s) and the Linux kernel is still the same lineage is the original by Tourvalds.

For an example of what happens when you make too many significant architectural changes to software in one go, look at Windows Vista.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Could SWR give up on 701s altogether if the delays continue to pile on?
The Belgium/Dutch gave up on Ansaldo Breda V250 so its possible but more than likely the rolling stock owners will take all the compensation due under the contract and SWR will just plod along with it as they have no urgency to change the stock and are saving the govt expensive leasing charges.
 

hwl

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The Belgium/Dutch gave up on Ansaldo Breda V250 so its possible but more than likely the rolling stock owners will take all the compensation due under the contract and SWR will just plod along with it as they have no urgency to change the stock and are saving the govt expensive leasing charges.
The difference there was that they had big mechanical/structural issues.
Once the cab mods have been completed it is software fix territory.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The difference there was that they had big mechanical/structural issues.
Once the cab mods have been completed it is software fix territory.
Indeed the Aventra is sound mechanically and electrically and i said this is a waiting game with the only loser being Alstom if they didn't factor in the costs for dealing with the issues and compensation to Rock rail who are the owners when they bough Bombardier Rail. SWR leasing bill has been kept down over the last 12 months so Dept of Transport have had to find less to keep it running. The passengers that are about aren't in overcrowded trains currently so not really missing the benefits of the air con.
 

Goldfish62

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Indeed the Aventra is sound mechanically and electrically and i said this is a waiting game with the only loser being Alstom if they didn't factor in the costs for dealing with the issues and compensation to Rock rail who are the owners when they bough Bombardier Rail. SWR leasing bill has been kept down over the last 12 months so Dept of Transport have had to find less to keep it running. The passengers that are about aren't in overcrowded trains currently so not really missing the benefits of the air con.
Agreed except on the last point. A hot train is a hot train, whether it's crowded or not!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Agreed except on the last point. A hot train is a hot train, whether it's crowded or not!
Indeed its fair to say ventilation on the York build EMUs wasn't the best and i was fortunate that on my regular commute we we went from slam doors to Electrostars so only had to suffer them occasionally which was especially bad on stock stabled all day and bought out for a peak duty.
 

Domh245

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Agreed except on the last point. A hot train is a hot train, whether it's crowded or not!

A hot train is more tolerable when it's not too busy - there's a bit of airflow and a lot less 'body heat' coming off everyone else.
 

Goldfish62

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A hot train is more tolerable when it's not too busy - there's a bit of airflow and a lot less 'body heat' coming off everyone else.
Yes, but still unpleasant. I was on a 458 during the recent very brief hot spell. It was a quiet train, but the aircon had failed and all the windows were open. It was very unpleasant.
 

Roast Veg

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Rewriting software from scratch is significantly more expensive, time consuming and risky than adapting and extending existing software.
You lose all the prior knowledge, known issues, workarounds etc. that's been developed whilst building up that software for a start.
There's a reason Windows is still based on NT (80s) and the Linux kernel is still the same lineage is the original by Tourvalds.

For an example of what happens when you make too many significant architectural changes to software in one go, look at Windows Vista.
Not rewriting from scratch forces you to be burdened with years of technical debt. It has to be done sooner or later for each component of your software. We tend to call them major revisions, of which Linux has had several. Don't forget MITRAC has been around for more than 20 years.
 

Domh245

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Not rewriting from scratch forces you to be burdened with years of technical debt. It has to be done sooner or later for each component of your software. We tend to call them major revisions, of which Linux has had several. Don't forget MITRAC has been around for more than 20 years.

The Aventra software was written from scratch (ish) from the 710s upward - it was cited as one of the major reasons for the delay to those units
 

crablab

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Not rewriting from scratch forces you to be burdened with years of technical debt.
Tech debt has a clue in the name though ;) It tends to impact those writing the software, rather than those using it (until it slows down delivery - at which point you have some spikes to deal with the tech debt).

Point remains that tech debt can be known and quantified - in the backlog. Whereas, new software is completely unknown.

We tend to call them major revisions
In the agile world it's just another iteration
 

samuelmorris

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Updated Modern Railways data here - for the most recent data point, I've taken the mean of the MTIN and MP701D figures on the assumption that presumably only the latter is likely to see use moving forward, but not being sure how they will ultimately differ. This is not the reason for the big drop in scores, however, even the MTINs are greatly reduced for this period for most of the Aventra fleets.

It might soon be time to start trimming the 2017 data off, the X axis is getting a bit small!

 

Roast Veg

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Tech debt has a clue in the name though ;) It tends to impact those writing the software, rather than those using it (until it slows down delivery - at which point you have some spikes to deal with the tech debt).

Point remains that tech debt can be known and quantified - in the backlog. Whereas, new software is completely unknown.

In the agile world it's just another iteration
Our agile iterations are rarely breaking changes. We have specific mitigations to avoid them at all costs. In the past year we only had one!

The next major revision will be a codebase fork.
 

spark001uk

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Yeah they definitely won't be required to pompey now they're getting another hand-me-down.! :D
 

swt_passenger

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I think it is not to be taken literally. More implies occasional trips to Basingstoke/Haslemere probably first/last thing or weekends depending on diagramming.
Yes, we had a quick discussion of that map/diagram last June, the consensus was it‘s definitely not representative of likely real life services:
 

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