Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Whistler40145]

Did anyone expect longitudinal seating, which is generally used only where high proportions of standees are expected?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2021 ==

The railway seems to be plagued by projects to re-purpose rolling stock which take an age to bring to any sort of fruition, a significant proportion of which then end up as failures. 769s - yet to be seen, but deadly slow to come on stream. 442s - expensive refurbs, only to be ditched. SWT 455s - re-tractioned, only to be dispensed with relatively shortly after. 230s - extremely slow development, and seemingly riddled with problems. Am I being too negative?

No, you're definitely not negative

It's very much a make do with what we've got attitude

 

[Speed43125]

Did anyone expect longitudinal seating, which is generally used only where high proportions of standees are expected?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2021 ==

The railway seems to be plagued by projects to re-purpose rolling stock which take an age to bring to any sort of fruition, a significant proportion of which then end up as failures. 769s - yet to be seen, but deadly slow to come on stream. 442s - expensive refurbs, only to be ditched. SWT 455s - re-tractioned, only to be dispensed with relatively shortly after. 230s - extremely slow development, and seemingly riddled with problems. Am I being too negative?

I would say not 'too negative', but I might add that hindsight is a wonderful thing, the difficulty of 442s and HSTs for example didn't become completely obvious until they'd started doing the work on them.

230s and 769s were again, perhaps overly optimistically lauded as the solution to the DMU shortage at the time, but again, in the grand scheme of things, back then, it was probably difficult to prove they would suffer the delays they had suffered.

 

[northernbelle]

I would say not 'too negative', but I might add that hindsight is a wonderful thing, the difficulty of 442s and HSTs for example didn't become completely obvious until they'd started doing the work on them.

Actually some of us did point out it was a daft idea from the start!

 

[Ashley Hill]

Are these 230s DOO,DCO or do they have guards? The reason I ask is that the report on the fire incident quotes the swift action of the driver. No mention of a guard!

 

[craigybagel]

Are these 230s DOO,DCO or do they have guards? The reason I ask is that the report on the fire incident quotes the swift action of the driver. No mention of a guard!

They will have guards when operating in passenger service who will work the train the same way they do for every other TfW service. However, as this was not a passenger service there was no requirement for a guard to be onboard - it may well have been a DOO ECS movement.

 

[Ashley Hill]

They will have guards when operating in passenger service who will work the train the same way they do for every other TfW service. However, as this was not a passenger service there was no requirement for a guard to be onboard - it may well have been a DOO ECS movement.

Cheers

 

[DelW]

The railway seems to be plagued by projects to re-purpose rolling stock which take an age to bring to any sort of fruition, a significant proportion of which then end up as failures. 769s - yet to be seen, but deadly slow to come on stream. 442s - expensive refurbs, only to be ditched. SWT 455s - re-tractioned, only to be dispensed with relatively shortly after. 230s - extremely slow development, and seemingly riddled with problems. Am I being too negative?

Keeping it brief as it's o/t for this thread, but I don't think it's fair to include SWT 455s in that. The AC traction kit is reliable, passengers liked the new interiors, they've justified the work done, and they're only being replaced because the new(ish) regime wants a uniform inner suburban fleet.

 

[wobman]

The driver would have spoken to the signaller who contacted the fire service probably the to TFW maintenance control, the guards don't have the traction knowledge of a driver. The DI on that 230 has been testing them over 18 months now, so he would know the traction better than anyone.
The fire was at croes newydd loop close to the signal box, so to access the unit the fire brigade would need to access through a garden of one of the houses as shown in the picture.
The issues with these engines has been brought up numerous times but nothing seems to be happening, there was talk of using a better suited engine but that's gone quiet it seems.

 

[mmh]

Did anyone expect longitudinal seating, which is generally used only where high proportions of standees are expected?

They do have longitudinal seating, in the sections behind the driving cabs.

 

[Gareth]

At least they'll be warm in the winter.

 

[sw1ller]

At least they'll be warm in the winter.

Hahaha. That made me chuckle.

I’m led to believe it was a battery that went up too, so it’s nothing to do with the 2017 fire which was a faulty fuel pipe. If this is the case I’m surprised it was kept under control.

it’s not good news though, I’ll be very interested to hear from the battery supplier on the issue.

 

[wobman]

Hahaha. That made me chuckle.

I’m led to believe it was a battery that went up too, so it’s nothing to do with the 2017 fire which was a faulty fuel pipe. If this is the case I’m surprised it was kept under control.

it’s not good news though, I’ll be very interested to hear from the battery supplier on the issue.

I have asked this question and got told I was being negative about the 230's ! the regen system creates lots of energy & this constantly recharging the battery packs, it's untested on the UK rail network & if a battery pack goes on fire I wouldn't go near it personally it would be 999 and leave the fire brigade to it. I've seen a battery car go on fire, it was that bad they just let the car burn out which is worrying.

 

[reddragon]

I eat my hat! They look far better inside than I feared they would.

The seats were quite firm but comfortable and the aircon was prone to leaking water I guess due to inactivity / newness

Yes 010 doing a shuttle on battery from Honeyborne. Rail is tweeting details.

It ran on batteries in one direction only. In the afternoon that was from Rail Live to Honeybourne but returned on diesel when there very few passengers. On start up I found it to be noisy and plenty of vibration but once the engine quickly warmed up it was fine.

 

[DavidGrain]

GWR was unable to supply trains for the Rail Live shuttle so TfW agreed to 010 standing in.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Class 230s have long been a disaster. It's telling that even their defenders and apologists on the forum no longer defend or apologise for them. Unfortunately it's a project which has failed. Give it five years and the few which manage to hobble into service will probably be quietly and unceremoniously disposed of.

You are entitled to your own thoughts obviously

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2021 ==

Did anyone expect longitudinal seating, which is generally used only where high proportions of standees are expected?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2021 ==

The railway seems to be plagued by projects to re-purpose rolling stock which take an age to bring to any sort of fruition, a significant proportion of which then end up as failures. 769s - yet to be seen, but deadly slow to come on stream. 442s - expensive refurbs, only to be ditched. SWT 455s - re-tractioned, only to be dispensed with relatively shortly after. 230s - extremely slow development, and seemingly riddled with problems. Am I being too negative?

I agree that certain senior figures appear to have made somewhat questionable decisions, but because the industry has been so utterly fragmented there no longer seems to be a central core of sense. Acquiring a huge fleet of 701s whilst spending a fortune retractioning eighteen utterly non standard plastic pigs seemed a strange concept when it was announced. And so it has proved. In my view shipping the ex Scotrail 170s to Northern was another questionable idea. The DfT should simply have extended the class 195 order and moved the ex TS 170s straight to EMR.

Are the TfW 230s really riddled with problems? Or is it actually a radically different concept to 35 year old 2nd gen DMU technology.? I admit I am not totally confident of Vivarail''s D78 plan, but the positive I personally see is that Vivarail appear to have ditched the hydrogen concept and stuck with electricity in both battery and current collection forms. I think battery technology has to play some part in eradicating diesels over the next decades

 

[js1000]

Class 230s have long been a disaster. It's telling that even their defenders and apologists on the forum no longer defend or apologise for them. Unfortunately it's a project which has failed. Give it five years and the few which manage to hobble into service will probably be quietly and unceremoniously disposed of.

Inclined to agree. Same will be said of the 769s I suspect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the very first thread that was on this website concerning the Vivarail "new lamps for old" pantomime Class 230 project, there was one certain website member of advanced years who ventured that all might not be as Vivarail had hoped and was roundly decried for daring to venture such an opinion as Mr Shooter had knowledge of rail industry matters far in excess of an armchair critic, albeit an armchair critic who was a Senior Head of Projects in a consultancy before taking retirement and had spent ten years heading the consultancy office in Toronto from 1995-2004 where they were the project lead in a multi-million Canadian dollar hydro-electric project.

In Biblical terms...."and it came to pass....."

 

[sw1ller]

On the very first thread that was on this website concerning the Vivarail "new lamps for old" pantomime Class 230 project, there was one certain website member of advanced years who ventured that all might not be as Vivarail had hoped and was roundly decried for daring to venture such an opinion as Mr Shooter had knowledge of rail industry matters far in excess of an armchair critic, albeit an armchair critic who was a Senior Head of Projects in a consultancy before taking retirement and had spent ten years heading the consultancy office in Toronto from 1995-2004 where they were the project lead in a multi-million Canadian dollar hydro-electric project.

In Biblical terms...."and it came to pass....."

Yeah, you called it, but it was still unfair to criticise it so heavily before the project had even started. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Edit:

also, I don’t think it’s now the failure you say it is. They run a little heavy on diesel, sure, and one prototype battery got a bit hot. Or whatever happened, I still think they’ll come into service soon.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yeah, you called it, but it was still unfair to criticise it so heavily before the project had even started. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Edit:

also, I don’t think it’s now the failure you say it is. They run a little heavy on diesel, sure, and one prototype battery got a bit hot. Or whatever happened, I still think they’ll come into service soon.

Hindsight is when you speak of matters after they had occurred. As you correctly observe, criticism prior to a project commencing is most certainly NOT hindsight.

If you look back a few postings ago, it was the website member with the user name @mmh who stated "Class 230s have long been a disaster". Perhaps it would have been better if you wished to make a posting of rebuttal, it would have been better to have made a posting response to that website member. I did notice that you made no mention of the fire in the raft containing the diesel unit some years ago that caused the cancellation of the 12-month trial contract for the Coventry to Nuneaton line service.

 

[reddragon]

Hindsight is when you speak of matters after they had occurred. As you correctly observe, criticism prior to a project commencing is most certainly NOT hindsight.

If you look back a few postings ago, it was the website member with the user name @mmh who stated "Class 230s have long been a disaster". Perhaps it would have been better if you wished to make a posting of rebuttal, it would have been better to have made a posting response to that website member. I did notice that you made no mention of the fire in the raft containing the diesel unit some years ago that caused the cancellation of the 12-month trial contract for the Coventry to Nuneaton line service.

Paul

We know that you totally adore these trains and cannot wait for all the trains in your area to be D78s to fulfil your desire for lower embedded emissions in trains for the further of the children of today & our plant.

You cannot therefore deny that the roll out of brand new highly embedded emission trains has been in any way smooth or timely either!

As far as I know, no D78's have had any major structural failures, bits falling off etc as have some new trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul

We know that you totally adore these trains and cannot wait for all the trains in your area to be D78s to fulfil your desire for lower embedded emissions in trains for the further of the children of today & our plant.

You cannot therefore deny that the roll out of brand new highly embedded emission trains has been in any way smooth or timely either!

As far as I know, no D78's have had any major structural failures, its falling off etc as have some new trains.

Unlike others, even though I was aware that my views concerning the Vivarail project from inception would be seemed as heretical against the "Gospel according to Shooter", I was able to speak from ten years project experience on a far larger project in cost and size of scope in Canada.

Immolation does seem more of a problem with Vivarail having been affected by more than one traction mode rather than the "falling off" items that you so rightly draw attention to, but whilst CAF do have an undeniable new product problem with yaw dampers, I could aid your case by bringing to mind of carden shafts on the much older Class 142 Pacer units, lovingly described by me as "Newton Heath's Finest" when like Miss Jean Brodie, they were in their prime.

 

[reddragon]

Unlike others, even though I was aware that my views concerning the Vivarail project from inception would be seemed as heretical against the "Gospel according to Shooter", I was able to speak from ten years project experience on a far larger project in cost and size of scope in Canada.

Immolation does seem more of a problem with Vivarail having been affected by more than one traction mode rather than the "falling off" items that you so rightly draw attention to, but whilst CAF do have an undeniable new product problem with yaw dampers, I could aid your case by bringing to mind of carden shafts on the much older Class 142 Pacer units, lovingly described by me as "Newton Heath's Finest" when like Miss Jean Brodie, they were in their prime.

Luckily, being actively involved in significant capital programmes & projects that affect the railway and working at a senior technical level, I can be objective rather than personal about a delivery project.

I see much more significant failings in other train procurement plans than I do in this one and that this one is not an outlier compared with the pack.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Luckily, being actively involved in significant capital programmes & projects that affect the railway and working at a senior technical level, I can be objective rather than personal about a delivery project.

I see much more significant failings in other train procurement plans than I do in this one and that this one is not an outlier compared with the pack.

I think if you make reference to the postings of regular commuters on the Marston Vale line thread, they can speak from experience of how the Vivarail units have performed on that particular line.

 

[reddragon]

I think if you make reference to the postings of regular commuters on the Marston Vale line thread, they can speak from experience of how the Vivarail units have performed on that particular line.

Or those on Anglian lines still awaiting trains due years ago or the MML who have to make do & mend for a while, the list goes on.

I'm sure those on GWR surviving without enough serviceable class 800's envy the Marston Vale commuters! My local service on GWR, that is supposed to be half hourly currently runs just hourly, with cancellations and poor connections making a journey that was 30 mins often exceed 3 hours!

 

[Royston Vasey]

On the very first thread that was on this website concerning the Vivarail "new lamps for old" pantomime Class 230 project, there was one certain website member of advanced years who ventured that all might not be as Vivarail had hoped and was roundly decried for daring to venture such an opinion as Mr Shooter had knowledge of rail industry matters far in excess of an armchair critic, albeit an armchair critic who was a Senior Head of Projects in a consultancy before taking retirement and had spent ten years heading the consultancy office in Toronto from 1995-2004 where they were the project lead in a multi-million Canadian dollar hydro-electric project.

In Biblical terms...."and it came to pass....."

I agree, my own past postings around that time include "TOCs are ordering new stock left right and centre... I can't see how this company will make money from these cut and shut noddy trains" (May 2018). I like you was in a small minority at the time. We were told how many had been ordered and how they were therefore a success! We were told how these longstanding rail professionals weren't acting like hobbyists but hard nosed business people and rail engineers with valuable breakthrough integration IP, that had seen a great opportunity! You were even told at the same you were naysaying and your forecasts had resoundingly not come true!

I also pointed out the flaws in bumping the front of one into an unsecured water tank and claiming them to be safe based on a single point correlation with their finite element model.

Their bimode-trimode-flex fuel-alt fuel thunder has also rather been stolen by more capable better funded hybrid projects on proper rolling stock, backed by the ROSCOs; the 769s (and now 768s) were slow to happen but they are here. There's even a Scottish fuel cell train demonstrator project based on a Class 314 which is very credible and being run by fuel cell integration experts Arcola Energy. If that name sounds familiar it's because Vivarail announced a partnership with them as well in 2019. Nothing concrete seems to have come of that while Arcola are now working with a heavyweight consortium including Transport Scotland, Arup, Ballard and others on the Class 314 project https://www.focustransport.org/2021/01/scottish-class-314-train-will-be.html. 314209 is now at Bo'ness under conversion and will be debuted at COP26 in Glasgow this year.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or those on Anglian lines still awaiting trains due years ago or the MML who have to make do & mend for a while, the list goes on.

I'm sure those on GWR surviving without enough serviceable class 800's envy the Marston Vale commuters! My local service on GWR, that is supposed to be half hourly currently runs just hourly, with cancellations and poor connections making a journey that was 30 mins often exceed 3 hours!

1) ... How many Vivarail units do you think there are on the Marston Vale line?

2) ... How many Vivarail units are in commercial operational service in total?

3) ... How would units with a maximum top speed of 60mph fare on the MML?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Or those on Anglian lines still awaiting trains due years ago or the MML who have to make do & mend for a while, the list goes on.

I'm sure those on GWR surviving without enough serviceable class 800's envy the Marston Vale commuters! My local service on GWR, that is supposed to be half hourly currently runs just hourly, with cancellations and poor connections making a journey that was 30 mins often exceed 3 hours!

Not really apples with apples.

The 800s are high quality long term purchasing decisions and are returning after checks and remedial action, just like, say, the 158s did in the early 1990s. They will continue in service for another 30 years and you'll get your service back. By that time the Marston Vale 230s will be 70 years old.

Those on the Anglian lines still had mostly 156s with which there wasn't much wrong. I'd take a reliable 156 shuttle over a 230. The MML are getting 360s, not ideal but with some TLC, perfectly good trains for another 20 years.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we please stick to the topic of this thread - Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line

thanks

 

[Bob Price]

And back to topic TfW have tweeted today that buses will replace two services a day from Wrexham to Bidston and back in the middle of the day. This is to prepare for new trains. Tweet is here: https://twitter.com/tfwrail/status/1413198949691834372?s=19

 

[Sean Emmett]

And back to topic TfW have tweeted today that buses will replace two services a day from Wrexham to Bidston and back in the middle of the day. This is to prepare for new trains. Tweet is here: https://twitter.com/tfwrail/status/1413198949691834372?s=19

New tweet, but old news. That's been a feature for a while. Was up early June to time a few 150s, and saw a 230 out on training runs. Spotted on board & when taking lunch at 'spoons Shotton.