Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[37424]

I'm not a world expert as such; I just listen to and read the views of experts.

If you find I've said something that's inaccurate, feel free to correct me...


You should do what is best for you, but this shouldn't extend to dictating what others can or can't do.


This really doesn't make sense.

Natural immunity works in a similar way to vaccine induced immunity; in both cases your body learns how to fight a virus (in this case, Sars-CoV-2) and your immune system 'remembers' how to fight any such virus through memory B & T cells.

Are you suggesting that vaccine induced immunity is inferior, or are you saying something else? If so, what are you saying and do you have any sources to back up your claims?


OK so the solution is for others to be restricted.

Sorry but I reject this, and I refer you to posts by myself and others above, which raise points you have not addressed.


Herd immunity is a naturally occurring phenomenon; it is not an "approach". I'd also like to understand what you mean by this term, as people use it to mean different things, so it's not clear unless you clarify.

Do you actually mean reach seasonal endemic equilibrium, as we have with similar betacoronaviruses, such as OC43, or do you mean something else?


What you said is clear for all to see.


Did you read the article I linked to? If you disagree with it, what aspects do you disagree with, and why?


I'd be curious to learn how many people you spoke to and in what setting as I find it difficult to believe that many people from a wide cross section of society would unanimously agree with you.


There is no singular correct view, but as I've said above, if you think I've said something incorrect, feel free to explain what is incorrect and how it is.


On the contrary, I've engaged with you and invited you to answer a wide range of questions in an open debate, but the answers to key questions are so far rather lacking. Hopefully you will address my questions in this post as I'd be interested to read your answers.

In summary, the key questions in this post are:

1. Why do you think you have good immunity against viruses you have been previously infected with, but not against viruses you have been vaccinated against?
2. What do you mean by the term "herd immunity" exactly, and why do you appear to think that achieving such an outcome is a negative thing?
3. Have you read the article I linked to relating to the effectiveness of FFP3 vs standard masks, and what are your thoughts on this matter? If you disagree with the published conclusions, why is this so, and do you have any evidence to the contrary?
4. You say you spoke to people who agreed with you last night; are you able to elaborate on roughly what this setting was, and how many people were part of this group? Do you think this group is representative of the wider population, and if so, what attributes does this group have that indicate this could be the case?

1. I am not saying that but what I am saying is that one of the treatments in particular given to me related to removing of faulty white cell the doctors thought would make the vaccine ineffective and told me not to have the vaccine, they later changed that advice to take the vaccine but they think a booster will be very important once that treatment is finished and even then with my other treatments there is no certainty it will be all that effective, this treatment is also given to rheumatoid arthritis patients and the effectiveness of vaccines is also an issue for them while on this treatment. As far as previously exposed virus goes I hope my immune system retains some memory of them that will be effective but no I don't know that for sure.

2. I don't think I need to get into a detailed description of herd immunity except to say you were an advocate even when we didn't have a vaccine and hospital admissions were going through the roof. The policy now appears to be to let it rip, and do it during the summer as that better than winter and hope hospital admissions remain low. In the long term it may be a positive but in the meantime its a significant threat to people like myself and if hospital admissions go high again I suspect that's something the NHS call ill afford. I know 2 NHS Nurses that have had enough one an A&E Nurse who has left the profession entirely, the other an ICU nurse who was in covid wards has gone to a private hospital, and when I rung my consultants secretary a couple of months backs I got an ear bashing down the phone saying they had virtually no admin staff, and no doctors. Of course the more the NHS has to deal with covid the more it will divert resources from dealing with other illnesses.

3. I am not disputing that FFP3 masks appear to be significantly better, however we seem to have had various studies on the effectiveness of face masks in general with varying conclusions, so who is to say we might get another next week saying FFP3 masks are not as good as we thought. My view on face masks in general is that they may help they may not, but they are not difficult to wear for most people apart from the awkward squad so why not wear one?

4. I had a discussion with a few of my friends last night and I discussed it last week with quite a few of my work colleagues when it was in the pipeline they are a wide variety of ages, yes a few of the younger ones didn't want any restrictions but overall the majority seem to favour carrying on with some restrictions.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I admire your optimism! How much spare stock do the TOCs have? There's none in Wales for sure. The 745s are hit and miss covering the existing work let alone any more. There are seven spare 317s and five 379s but everything on that side is eight car already. They could reinstate the 1707/1737/1807 Cambridge trains. I've no idea how many spare 321s there are. GWR and LNER will struggle to turn out any extra sets with the ongoing IET problems although there is possibly scope for more use of 387s or class 91s.

DMU wise i agree that options are extremely limited now the pacers have gone and in reality i guess there are none? Mind you the 755's aren't gainfully employed so better utilisation of that fleet needs looking at. Furthermore if TPE had got their stock into use that would ahve unlocked some 185's.

EMU wise there are plenty of, admittedly tired, GA units that should have been warm stored at least until the class 720's have settled into a rhythm of being introduced on a weekly basis but dozens of 317/321's have been scrapped. At least SE are just relocating Networkers to make room for 707's.

I left till last mentioning the 365's!

Ultimately though i see the politicians are slugging it over retaining face masks on public transport so that may put off people for sometime yet.

 

[Bikeman78]

Firstly it's their perception that they are protecting others.

Secondly, I don't want other people to protect me, other than to simply cover their nose and mouth when they sneeze and cough, as has always been common courtesy.

And wash their hands after using the toilet, which many people still don't.

 

[notlob.divad]

Who would want them to be mandatory, but wouldn't make the choice to wear them themselves?

Those who see value in wearing them, if everyone is wearing them (irrespective of some people's interpretation of 'the science').

 

[yorkie]

I am not asking for them to be, all I was asking for was for some protection for those who choose to. Too many people will see the removal of the mandate to wear them, as a ban against wearing them, I am afraid. Whilst those particular people may not visit this forum, they exist and will certainly make their presence known.

I've not heard anyone say that.

In contrast, I am tired of mask enthusiasts going on about how others should be forced to wear ineffective masks to protect them, even though they could choose to wear an effective mask which would avoid the issue of what others wear.

I have learned from a YouGov survey that 71% of people want facemasks to stay mandatory on Public Transport
What fantastic news because if the same people actually do it presumably all these people would wear a mask voluntarily ( as well as some who would wear a mask even if they disagree with it being mandatory) and therefore we will not be in much of a different place on July 19 to where we are today

We've discussed YouGov before and my view is the same: polls like this give inaccurate results. When it comes down to it, we won't see anywhere near 71% in favour of masks. Far from it.

I did some YouGov polls last Summer when I had some spare time and my conclusion is that they are only suitable for people who have loads of time on their hands. They are not at all likely to be done by busy people like us.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2021 ==

Who would want them to be mandatory, but wouldn't make the choice to wear them themselves?

Authoritarians who want to dictate to others.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2021 ==

Those who see value in wearing them, if everyone is wearing them (irrespective of some people's interpretation of 'the science').

Those who want such protection can choose to wear an effective FFP3 mask, rather than fuss over whether or not other people are wearing flimsy ineffective masks.

Covid: Masks upgrade cuts infection risk, research finds

Wearing a high grade FFP3 mask can almost entirely protect health workers from Covid, research finds.

www.bbc.co.uk

Wearing a high grade mask known as an FFP3 can provide up to 100% protection.

By contrast, there is a far greater chance of staff wearing standard issue surgical masks catching the virus...

...these masks are relatively flimsy and loose-fitting and are not meant to screen out infectious aerosols - tiny virus particles that can linger in the air and are now widely accepted as a source of coronavirus infection.

The study found that staff caring for Covid patients on "red" wards faced a risk that was up to 47 times higher than those on "green" or non-Covid wards.

In the weeks following this move, the rate of infections among healthcare workers on red wards dropped spectacularly, quickly falling to the level experienced by staff on green wards where there were no Covid patients.

Basically, a standard mask doesn't offer much - if any - protection (even if worn correctly, which very few people seem to), whereas an FFP3 mask provides almost 100% protection to the wearer.

Therefore, there is no need for any controversy: those who wish to be protected by a mask can choose to wear an FFP3, and they no longer need to care what other people are or aren't wearing.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think I even see 71% of people wearing face coverings on trains now, let alone when they're not compulsory.

 

[bramling]

You can't say you respect somebody's choice, but then dislike the reason for it.... That isn't respectful.

That’s fine if that’s as far as it goes.

However, if it becomes “I’m wearing a mask to protect others, and I expect everyone else to do the same”, which seems to be the line at least some people are advocating, then it’s perfectly reasonable to dispute that.

Part of the problem is the whole subject has become tied up with the idea that not wearing a mask is somehow disrespectful, this emotively charging it.

The point made by some on here that those genuinely concerned can wear a “proper” mask to protect *themselves* is persuasive enough for me.

 

[MikeWM]

A very strong twitter thread from Robert Dingwall today (who has been one of the few members of SAGE worth listening to all along).

https://twitter.com/rwjdingwall/status/1412330340346126337

As a member of government advisory bodies, I have always felt it would be incompatible with that status not to wear a face covering where legally required to. However, I shall cease to do so from 19 July when these requirements lapse.
I shall do this as an act of solidarity with all the people who have been exempt because of respiratory and neurodiverse conditions.
I shall do this as an act of solidarity with all the people who have been exempt because of trauma induced by previous assaults or abuse.
Both of these groups have often had a hard time over the last 15 months from police officers, street marshalls, security guards, door staff and self-appointed busybodies.
I shall do this as an act of solidarity with all the people with communication difficulties, whether auditory and unable to lip-read, or visual and unable to use sound for reliable interaction and navigation.
I shall do this as an act of solidarity with all the small children whose education has been disrupted by the lack of visual clues, especially in language development.
I shall do this because, as SAGE, ECDC, WHO, CDC, CEBM, etc have pointed out, the evidence of benefit in interrupting transmission from face covering is weak and ambiguous, allowing any partisan to cherry pick studies that suit their case.
I shall do this because, as the highly charged responses to the UK government's announcement have shown, the main reasons for covering faces are now about fear and anxiety which will not be eased by clinging any longer to these comfort blankets.
I shall do this because I, too, am a moral person who cares about those with disabilities who are potential victims of discrimination, about small children whose development is disrupted, and about respect for scientific evidence.
If others take a different view, that is their prerogative. However, I will not allow them to suggest that I am less moral or caring and I will expect them to respect my choices as I respect theirs.

 

[bramling]

I don't think I even see 71% of people wearing face coverings on trains now, let alone when they're not compulsory.

Certainly not in London. I’m not sure it was ever than high on the Underground, and it absolutely isn’t now.

Like much of this, there’s no doubt an element of “I want *others* to do things”.

We need to get away from the notion that everyone is by default a dirty irresponsible germ-infested disgrace, which seems to be the view some people are propagating.

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly not in London. I’m not sure it was ever than high on the Underground, and it absolutely isn’t now.

Like much of this, there’s no doubt an element of “I want *others* to do things”.

We need to get away from the notion that everyone is by default a dirty irresponsible germ-infested disgrace, which seems to be the view some people are propagating.

Indeed. And the other way to look at it is that if so many people have given up on mask wearing on trains anyway, the rule change isn't going to make as much difference to transmission as some people (who assume mass compliance) think.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. And the other way to look at it is that if so many people have given up on mask wearing on trains anyway, the rule change isn't going to make as much difference to transmission as some people (who assume mass compliance) think.

The difficulty is that for these people it isn’t about transmission, but about “respect”. So logic doesn’t really come into it!

 

[LAX54]

Even when the queue outside means the queue inside is shorter, and you can move around the aisles much quicker?

surely if Social Distancing has been done away with, which it will, when you wait outside you will be right next to someone anyway !

 

[notlob.divad]

That’s fine if that’s as far as it goes.

However, if it becomes “I’m wearing a mask to protect others, and I expect everyone else to do the same”, which seems to be the line at least some people are advocating, then it’s perfectly reasonable to dispute that.

Part of the problem is the whole subject has become tied up with the idea that not wearing a mask is somehow disrespectful, this emotively charging it.

The point made by some on here that those genuinely concerned can wear a “proper” mask to protect *themselves* is persuasive enough for me.

Can I ask how you adapt that position to handshaking.

At what point will not accepting someone's handshake (but instead offering a fistbump, or other such greeting) be seen as somehow disrespectful.

I say that as I now am offered hands to shake on a daily basis at work. I still at least initially try to conjole a fistbump out of it instead as personally I am not fully comfortable, but there is a significant level of peer pressure to return to handshakes. This is obviously going to be culturally different for many people. But in the culture I work in a morning handshake is seen as a ritual.

 

[Ianno87]

surely if Social Distancing has been done away with, which it will, when you wait outside you will be right next to someone anyway !

You're missing my point.

I'm not the slightest bit arsed about close contact in the supermarket, or outside.

The benefit of queueing outside is that everything is then much quicker and more pleasant inside. No more checkout queues stretching back up the aisles. No more being unable to move down congested aisles. No more trolleys being rammed into ankles or passive aggressive behaviour between customers. More space for the staff to stack the shelves and keep them well replenished.

Nothing to do with Covid. Everything to do with a change (albeit triggered by Covid) that has made something better, and keeping it.

In practice, the only time I've had to queue recently was on a busy Saturday afternoon. Most of the rest of the time, it's a case of walk straight in.

 

[AlterEgo]

But that is the reason.

You can't say you respect somebody's choice, but then dislike the reason for it.... That isn't respectful.

It seems like tolerance to me. “I am unhappy with your choice and think it is wrong and misguided but I will deign to allow it”. Obviously, if someone was to step up to a random person in the street and simply say with no context “your mask looks silly and I don’t like your reasons for it but wear it anyway and see what I care”, that would be intolerant and disrespectful. But I don’t see how, in the context of a specific discussion where we are invited to give our views, that such a response could be intolerant or disrespectful.

As for me, I’ve been double vaccinated and have been since May, and consider this more than adequate protection for others to be in my company. I will not wear a mask above and beyond the legal minimum (unless I’m on private property which requires it as a condition of entry for example).

I think people need to stop dying on the mask hill. They’re mostly ineffective as a public policy measure as previously implemented and there are better things we could be doing to help everyone live a more worthwhile life.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2021 ==

Can I ask how you adapt that position to handshaking.

At what point will not accepting someone's handshake (but instead offering a fistbump, or other such greeting) be seen as somehow disrespectful.

I say that as I now am offered hands to shake on a daily basis at work. I still at least initially try to conjole a fistbump out of it instead as personally I am not fully comfortable, but there is a significant level of peer pressure to return to handshakes. This is obviously going to be culturally different for many people. But in the culture I work in a morning handshake is seen as a ritual.

People aren’t catching covid from shaking hands. Nearly everyone vaccinated plus minimal fomite transmission would render it a moot point for me tbh.

 

[notlob.divad]

People aren’t catching covid from shaking hands. Nearly everyone vaccinated plus minimal fomite transmission would render it a moot point for me tbh.

So you are willing to shake an offered hand, that is fine and within your control.

But will people take offence at others refusual to shake an offered hand? which is where the problem lies. I appreciate you personally may not, and neither can you answer for everyone. I had been hoping we would emerge from the pandemic into a world where a desire to maintain some physical seperation and avoid unessesary and undesired body contact would be seen as acceptable, even a good thing. However this thread is incredibly disheartening as it it is obvious that this will not be the case and people will continue to pressurise people into unwanted contact and intimidate them by invading their personal space.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If people want to wear masks that’s up to them, I for one will putting my lanyard and mask where they belong on the 19th July - in the bin

 

[philosopher]

That YouGov poll saying 71%(or was it 77%?) of voters want mandatory face mask rules to remain, I don't believe that is atall representative of what the country think. We'll see come 19th July. I think no way will there be anywhere near 70 odd percent of people still wearing these ridiculous pieces of cloth!

Unlike most of YouGov’s polls in Covid, the accuracy of this one to some extent can be tested. If after the 19th May considerably less than 71% of people on public transport and in shops are wearing masks then it would back up the argument that these polls overstate support for these measures

 

[westv]

The way I understand it masks might give some protection to others (or they may not). Being double vaccinated might give some protection to others (or it may not).
If both do protect others which is claimed to be more effective?

 

[Bantamzen]

So you are willing to shake an offered hand, that is fine and within your control.

But will people take offence at others refusual to shake an offered hand? which is where the problem lies. I appreciate you personally may not, and neither can you answer for everyone. I had been hoping we would emerge from the pandemic into a world where a desire to maintain some physical seperation and avoid unessesary and undesired body contact would be seen as acceptable, even a good thing. However this thread is incredibly disheartening as it it is obvious that this will not be the case and people will continue to pressurise people into unwanted contact and intimidate them by invading their personal space.

You were hoping for a world with even less human contact? That's a depressing thought. I know in family, friend & work networks at the very least a handshake is seen as a good way to great someone, with hugs more appropriate for close family & friends.

I am another that won't be, in fact am not concerned about shaking other people's hands.

 

[big_rig]

So you are willing to shake an offered hand, that is fine and within your control.

But will people take offence at others refusual to shake an offered hand? which is where the problem lies. I appreciate you personally may not, and neither can you answer for everyone. I had been hoping we would emerge from the pandemic into a world where a desire to maintain some physical seperation and avoid unessesary and undesired body contact would be seen as acceptable, even a good thing. However this thread is incredibly disheartening as it it is obvious that this will not be the case and people will continue to pressurise people into unwanted contact and intimidate them by invading their personal space.

Shaking hands has never at any point in human history been seriously considered a ‘pressurised’ form of ‘unwanted contact’ or an ‘intimidatory invasion of personal space.’ I am afraid of that is your view you will sadly just have to deal with it, and good luck (I don’t mean it in an unkind way).

 

[AlterEgo]

So you are willing to shake an offered hand, that is fine and within your control.

But will people take offence at others refusual to shake an offered hand? which is where the problem lies. I appreciate you personally may not, and neither can you answer for everyone. I had been hoping we would emerge from the pandemic into a world where a desire to maintain some physical seperation and avoid unessesary and undesired body contact would be seen as acceptable, even a good thing. However this thread is incredibly disheartening as it it is obvious that this will not be the case and people will continue to pressurise people into unwanted contact and intimidate them by invading their personal space.

Well in regards to that point no, I’d be okay with someone saying “let’s fist bump instead”. It’s about respecting personal choice and that’s a no-cost option as far as I’m concerned.

 

[bramling]

You were hoping for a world with even less human contact? That's a depressing thought. I know in family, friend & work networks at the very least a handshake is seen as a good way to great someone, with hugs more appropriate for close family & friends.

I am another that won't be, in fact am not concerned about shaking other people's hands.

From a personal point of view, I don’t mind handshakes, but I do and have always preferred personal space (I’d say liking personal space isn’t necessarily the same as hating contact).

However I’m not sure how much of this is relevant to Covid - I would have considered it bad etiquette for someone to sit next to someone else on a train if other seats were available before Covid, so things are no different now on that score.

 

[Kilopylae]

Who would want them to be mandatory, but wouldn't make the choice to wear them themselves?

Two of my friends hold this opinion on the basis that masks are about creating an environment where the virus cannot spread rather than protecting the wearer — hence, in their view, masks are pointless if not worn by everyone. It is worth noting that here in backwater Devon almost everyone is still wearing masks on the bus or train.

But in the culture I work in a morning handshake is seen as a ritual.

Are you seriously proposing that this culture needs to be changed because handshakes spread germs? Not shaking hands was an emergency measure we took during a public health crisis; it was never intended to precipitate a long-term shift in normal behaviour, and nor should it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unlike most of YouGov’s polls in Covid, the accuracy of this one to some extent can be tested. If after the 19th May considerably less than 71% of people on public transport and in shops are wearing masks then it would back up the argument that these polls overstate support for these measures

What people in the aggregate say they’ll do and what they actually do are two different things. I’m reckoning on seeing about 20-30% mask wearing in London after July 19.

 

[bramling]

What people in the aggregate say they’ll do and what they actually do are two different things. I’m reckoning on seeing about 20-30% mask wearing in London after July 19.

And likewise I expect similar or less levels of mask wearing in my local Tesco’s - and probably something much closer to 0% in the evenings, as it was the night before the law was changed.

 

[edwin_m]

I've only skimmed the last 70-odd posts that have come in this morning, so apologies if I'm repeating something already done over.

If this thread shows anything it shows that there are many different attitudes to mask-wearing. To me this highlights the foolishness of the government telling everyone they can make their own mind up about whether to do so. Effectively it means everyone should obtain and understand some complex medical arguments, some of which may be put out there by people with a vested interest. Most people aren't competent to do that, or just have better things to do.

If mask-wearing protects anyone it mostly protects people other than the wearer, so this shouldn't really be an issue of personal choice. As a minimum the government should provide clear guidance, even if it's not legally enforceable.

 

[43066]

So you are willing to shake an offered hand, that is fine and within your control.

But will people take offence at others refusual to shake an offered hand? which is where the problem lies. I appreciate you personally may not, and neither can you answer for everyone. I had been hoping we would emerge from the pandemic into a world where a desire to maintain some physical seperation and avoid unessesary and undesired body contact would be seen as acceptable, even a good thing. However this thread is incredibly disheartening as it it is obvious that this will not be the case and people will continue to pressurise people into unwanted contact and intimidate them by invading their personal space.

I suspect in short order hand shaking and personal space will be viewed in exactly the same way as they were in 2019.

It sounds like you may have an unusual fear of human interaction, over and above anything to do with Covid. It’s important to remember that the restrictions around masks and social distancing were introduce to serve a purpose of reducing spread of the virus. They cannot be extended indefinitely to cater to a dislike of social interaction felt, however intensely, by a small minority.

 

[DelayRepay]

I will shake hands, but won't be offended if someone doesn't want to.

I've always been a bit concerned about whether said person had washed their hands after using the loo. The good thing about the new world is there will be hand sanitizer everywhere so, if you wish, you can easily clean your hands after shaking.

 

[Failed Unit]

Those who see value in wearing them, if everyone is wearing them (irrespective of some people's interpretation of 'the science').

You seem to refuse to answer my question. But why should the people with medical exception be the ones singled out for abuse? (Like we have for the last year). By forcing everyone to wear them this is exactly what you are advocating. At least giving people the choice everyone is happy?