TfW 'Buy before you board' posters

[0B00]

These posters appear to be all over the TfW network. I'm on the Cambrian and I'm wondering how these are not in breach of some regulation or other. How can it be 'the law' at (for example) Penrhyndeudraeth where I snapped this shot? It is unstaffed with no TVM.

I presume the rule still applies that with no facility to buy before travel, a full range of fares can be obtained on board (and yes, I am aware that TfW crew are not doing commercial duties due to Covid 19), or at the first opportunity (interchange with more than the minimum connection time etc.)?

Sorry - couldn't get the image to rotate!

 

[NSEFAN]

You have to buy at the first opportunity. If there's no serviceable TVM or open ticket office then the next opportunity is the train. Failing that, the destination.

 

[Kilopylae]

No way can this poster be correct. There has never been, and until everyone has a mobile phone there cannot be, a requirement to purchase an e-Ticket if you start your journey at a station with no ticket office or TVM.

 

[py_megapixel]

You have to buy at the first opportunity. If there's no serviceable TVM or open ticket office then the next opportunity is the train.

Indeed, though arguably the way that poster is laid out suggests that at an unstaffed TVM-less station you must use the website/app (which is wrong)

 

[NSEFAN]

Indeed, though arguably the way that poster is laid out suggests that at an unstaffed TVM-less station you must use the website/app (which is wrong)

Agreed. I wonder if this is FUD to try and get some more money out of pay-when-challenged passengers.

 

[Kilopylae]

Indeed, though arguably the way that poster is laid out suggests that at an unstaffed TVM-less station you must use the website/app (which is wrong)

It is plainly an attempt to induce anxiety in customers by deliberately misleading them, presumably in the hope of emotionally blackmailing people who would prefer to pay by cash into buying an e-Ticket. It's not acceptable.

 

[_toommm_]

The worst thing about them trying to force you to buy on your phone is that I don’t even think TFW do e-tickets yet. Certainly TheTrainLine forces you to buy an m-ticket meaning you’re forced into less flexibility.

 

[6Gman]

And is a poster legal if the wording is different between the two languages used?

Buy before travelling/ Buy before you board.

 

[Watershed]

I honestly don't think that it's 'malice' so to speak. It will just be another poster that those responsible for station posters will have been told to hang up.

TfW just haven't gone to the effort of checking which stations have ticketing facilities.

 

[Polarbear]

I’m glad I’m not the only one questioning TfW’s posters. I turned up at Neston expecting to be able to use a TVM a few weeks back, only to find there isn’t one there (I’m sure there used to be one).

I eventually managed to purchase a ticket using my mobile, but the wording of the poster strongly infers that it is an offence to board without a ticket, yet there is no opportunity to buy a ticket (aside from using an on-line service, which not everyone will have or necessarily wish to use).

 

[Watershed]

I’m glad I’m not the only one questioning TfW’s posters. I turned up at Neston expecting to be able to use a TVM a few weeks back, only to find there isn’t one there (I’m sure there used to be one).

I eventually managed to purchase a ticket using my mobile, but the wording of the poster strongly infers that it is an offence to board without a ticket, yet there is no opportunity to buy a ticket (aside from using an on-line service, which not everyone will have or necessarily wish to use).

There might not even be any mobile signal at some stations. Or your phone might have run out of battery, or be sufficiently low that you don't know it will last for the rest of the journey.

I don't think TfW intend to suggest you must use your phone to buy a ticket, but the poster is definitely open to that interpretation (particularly as it doesn't say "this may not apply at some stations").

 

[Merseysider]

These posters should not be up at any station without at least a ticket machine (and there’d be an argument to say one on each platform, too).

 

[Bletchleyite]

These posters should not be up at any station without at least a ticket machine (and there’d be an argument to say one on each platform, too).

As TfW haven't been doing on board ticket checks, I suspect these are a deliberate attempt to scare people into using their phone instead of travelling for free.

 

[py_megapixel]

As TfW haven't been doing on board ticket checks, I suspect these are a deliberate attempt to scare people into using their phone instead of travelling for free.

I honestly think they might have been more successful if they took the line of 'Please buy the ticket on your phone to help with social distancing' - though maybe not if passengers still thought they could go free.

 

[nedchester]

If TfW aren’t doing ticket checks why bother buying a ticket?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If TfW aren’t doing ticket checks why bother buying a ticket?

That’s a bit like saying if Sainsbury’s aren’t doing random bag checks why bother scanning all the items at a self-checkout.

 

[Merseysider]

I would argue the appropriate comparison to be “if Sainsburys aren’t offering staffed tills or self-service checkouts...”

In any case, if they are unable to collect revenue for whatever reason, that is a “them” problem, not a passenger problem.

 

[nedchester]

I would argue the appropriate comparison to be “if Sainsburys aren’t offering staffed tills or self-service checkouts...”

In any case, if they are unable to collect revenue for whatever reason, that is a “them” problem, not a passenger problem.

Yep. So no one is checking if I pay then why should I bother.

 

[Kilopylae]

I don't think TfW intend to suggest you must use your phone to buy a ticket, but the poster is definitely open to that interpretation (particularly as it doesn't say "this may not apply at some stations").

I think this is probably too charitable, given that TfW is in large part a rural operator and so is presumably aware that many of their stations do not have TVMs, and that they mentioned online purchases on the poster.

 

[Merseysider]

I think this is probably too charitable, given that TfW is in large part a rural operator

with large swathes of their network without mobile coverage!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep. So no one is checking if I pay then why should I bother.

So if there wasn't a security guard on the door at a shop you'd think it was OK to take items without paying for them?

Not something I'd want to be admitting on a public forum!

 

[Kite159]

Yep. So no one is checking if I pay then why should I bother.

I wonder if there was ever a RPI sting at Cardiff Bay how many passengers will be "caught" out without a ticket having boarded from a station with a TVM or even a ticket office, simply using Cardiff Bay because it is open.

Or even how many passengers simply use the app to purchase say a Ninian Park/Grangetown/Heath/Cathays to Cardiff Central/Queen Street ticket when travelling from further afield, from a station which doesn't have barriers.

-----------

On Saturday I did see a couple passengers with tickets on their phone to Barmouth, ready to show the guard when they passed asking for any requests

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So if there wasn't a security guard on the door at a shop you'd think it was OK to take items without paying for them?

Not something I'd want to be admitting on a public forum!

Sounds they are very dishonest and promoting theft. Not someone you would wish to be presented with an honesty box payment.

 

[infobleep]

Agreed. I wonder if this is FUD to try and get some more money out of pay-when-challenged passengers.

What does FUD mean?

 

[185]

A rarely heard /used acronym...
FUD: fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What does FUD mean?

Also has alternative meaning(s) in Scottish slang, but I would suggest that the explanation provided by @185 is correct and, in any event, the more appropriate.

 

[nedchester]

So if there wasn't a security guard on the door at a shop you'd think it was OK to take items without paying for them?

Not something I'd want to be admitting on a public forum!

You’ll note a chose my words carefully. I said why should I bother not saying they should actually avoid paying the fare.

That said then if TfW aren’t checking then they seem quite happy with revenue loss so there is no incentive to pay. So the view could be taken that if someone doesn’t pay there’s no loss to anyone, a victimless crime.

This may not seem relevant but there seem different views on this forum about “law breaking”. Fare evasion is a big no no whereas breaking of laws related to Covid seems on occasions to be positively encouraged! In fact the latter could be viewed as having potentially more serious consequences than the first. An interesting dichotomy!

 

[Watershed]

That said then if TfW aren’t checking then they seem quite happy with revenue loss so there is no incentive to pay

To be fair, they are checking - just not onboard trains. I've seen plenty of their revenue staff at non-barriered stations, even smaller ones like Llanelli. And all of their barrier lines have been in operation when I've passed through their stations.

But yes, I appreciate the sentiment you are alluding to.

 

[NSEFAN]

A rarely heard /used acronym...
FUD: fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage.

Yes, that's what I meant. Creating uncertainty and reducing clarity to try and coerce the less knowledgeable and more cautious into buying beforehand through their smartphones, even if the rules don't actually require any such thing. "I heard you can't board without a ticket anymore and have to use your phone. Better get a ticket, just incase!"

 

[island]

And is a poster legal if the wording is different between the two languages used?

Buy before travelling/ Buy before you board.

Nothing like that will make a poster “illegal”.

Specific forms of words are required to make it possible to charge a Penalty Fare, but that is not relevant to the situation at hand.