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Cross country new traction

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JonathanH

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Nottingham-Birmingham(-Cardiff), Birmingham-Leicester-(Stansted Airport) used to have Sprinters too during Central Trains.
Yes, but that is almost 15 years ago, so not really relevant to what should operate now. If you go far enough back, the short workings on both routes saw 150s as core traction at one point.

I think the point is that we should have an open mind as to what might be the appropriate stock for both routes but that doesn't mean a downgrade is appropriate.
 
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Doctor Fegg

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Firstly, the ex-Central Trains bit of XC is essentially nothing to do with the main bit of the franchise. It was probably more about "these two sets of routes don't neatly fit into other franchise boundaries" than anything else (especially as the "old" XC franchise lost the Birmingham/ Manchester - Carlisle - Edinburgh/ Glasgow services to the WCML franchise, part of which was then moved to the TPE franchise).
It seemed to me - and no more than that, I have no direct evidence - that "levelling up" inter-regional services has been viewed as a Good Thing throughout the privatised railway era.

So TPE has successively become more of an IC-standard operator, the Welsh Government has commissioned IC-like services from South to North Wales, Northern has its 'Connect' services, and so on. It's a fairly easy thing for the SRA/DfT/whoever it is this week to specify, and a fairly easy thing for franchise bidders to promise. Putting Birmingham-Stansted in with XC achieved that on paper, without introducing a new operator to New Street (as would have happened if the East Midlands franchise got it).

Unfortunately, in XC's case, the franchise has turned out as an Arriva-by-numbers minimum effort exercise, and the Birmingham-Stansted service really isn't any better off than when it was run by CT - who, in turn, didn't do much over Regional Railways Central other than replacing the 158s with 170s.
 

Stephen Lee

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It seemed to me - and no more than that, I have no direct evidence - that "levelling up" inter-regional services has been viewed as a Good Thing throughout the privatised railway era.

So TPE has successively become more of an IC-standard operator, the Welsh Government has commissioned IC-like services from South to North Wales, Northern has its 'Connect' services, and so on. It's a fairly easy thing for the SRA/DfT/whoever it is this week to specify, and a fairly easy thing for franchise bidders to promise. Putting Birmingham-Stansted in with XC achieved that on paper, without introducing a new operator to New Street (as would have happened if the East Midlands franchise got it).

Unfortunately, in XC's case, the franchise has turned out as an Arriva-by-numbers minimum effort exercise, and the Birmingham-Stansted service really isn't any better off than when it was run by CT - who, in turn, didn't do much over Regional Railways Central other than replacing the 158s with 170s.
Class 158.........
 

tbtc

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Nottingham-Birmingham(-Cardiff), Birmingham-Leicester-(Stansted Airport) used to have Sprinters too during Central Trains.

True - the first time I visited Cardiff was on a 150 from Birmingham - tell kids that these days and they won't believe you!

It seemed to me - and no more than that, I have no direct evidence - that "levelling up" inter-regional services has been viewed as a Good Thing throughout the privatised railway era.

So TPE has successively become more of an IC-standard operator, the Welsh Government has commissioned IC-like services from South to North Wales, Northern has its 'Connect' services, and so on. It's a fairly easy thing for the SRA/DfT/whoever it is this week to specify, and a fairly easy thing for franchise bidders to promise. Putting Birmingham-Stansted in with XC achieved that on paper, without introducing a new operator to New Street (as would have happened if the East Midlands franchise got it).

Unfortunately, in XC's case, the franchise has turned out as an Arriva-by-numbers minimum effort exercise, and the Birmingham-Stansted service really isn't any better off than when it was run by CT - who, in turn, didn't do much over Regional Railways Central other than replacing the 158s with 170s.

It's been interesting to see the way that some TOCs that inherited fairly unremarkable services focussed attention on a handful of routes as being their "flagship" operations - I'd argue that routes like the Cardiff - Birmingham - Nottingham/ Stansted services would be better being the "big fish in a small pond" rather than the "small fish in a big pond" that they currently seem under XC (were they appear a pretty low priority)
 
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Some interesting ideas!

In a couple of years time, there are only a few things regarding England's railways which can be said for sure; that the Hitachi trains supplied under the IEP programme and the Thameslink trains from Siemens will remain where they presently operate are two of them. This is because they are parts of what are basically PFIs, and the long term contracts have been let which will ensure they remain where they presently operate until the contracts expire unless terminated early (which will incur costs).

Regarding everything else, Great British Railways (GBR) will have been established, and all contracts entered into by TOCs will be transferred over to GBR by means of statutory transfer schemes; GBR will then have the freedom to decide were the trains will be used, and they will enter into contracts with the private sector to man the stations, operate the services, etc (like London Overground).

But we don't know much more than that.

Will the concessions be similar to the BR sectors? Will they be geographic, like the old BR regions? Will there be a single livery or separate ones for, say, inter-city, inter-regional, suburban, local, etc? Will all staff wear a common GBR uniform? Simple answer to all of these questions is that we just don't know.

I deliberately used England in the first sentence because the situation in Scotland and Wales could be different; but I think we have to remember that one of the Shapps' objectives is to put the passenger first, and therefore the government won't want to see any existing services cut because of the adverse publicity that will produce. There may be some minor changes to service patterns - say the merging of the Nottingham - Birmingham and Birmingham - Hereford services to provide a cross-Birmingham one if it's operationally advantageous so to do and this also has the added benefit of restoring something which used to exist - as the fact that they are presently operated by separate TOCs will become irrelevant.

GBR will be able to look at services, look at trains available, and then decide where best to use them; so, say, GBR could decide that it was better to use 165s with their wide bodies on former GWR routes around Birmingham, thereby allowing some 172s to transfer to West Yorkshire so that 170s could move to regional services were their slower acceleration wouldn't be a disadvantage but their 100mph maximum speed can be used better than on a Leeds - York stopper via Harrogate. I'm not suggesting this specifically as a way forward, but as an example of what would be possible with a single controlling body (GBR) not being restricted by contracts between ROSCOs and individual TOCs

Regarding XC, I believe class 170s (or equivalents which can take advantage of SP differentials) are best suited to the Birmingham - Stansted service, but if they can be accommodated at Stansted 4-car sets would be better than 3-car ones; from my experience, the vehicle's layout with their wide doors are well suited for this service - much better than most of the other types of trains which have been suggested on this thread.

However, I do think the use of Voyagers (or Meridians) on the Cardiff - Nottingham service should be considered, but this needs to be matched with a change to the services stopping pattern between Birmingham and Nottingham; journey times between these two cities with a change at Toton and HS2 from there to Curzon Street have been suggested as being in the region of 55 minutes, and something similar by a direct train between them with a single stop and reversal at Derby should be achievable already if a 125moh capable train was to be used. Midlands Connect have an aspiration for a fifth train each hour in the Derby - Birmingham corridor, and if this could be accommodated that could take over the stops presently made by the Nottingham - Cardiff service.

For those of us old enough to remember, Andrew Adonis started the electrification of the GWR out of Paddington and in north west England to make use of class 319s made available by the procurement of new trains for Thameslink; GBR will be in a position to look at modernisation schemes in their totality, and so it may decide that it is sensible to "do an Adonis" and electrify Didcot - Oxford and move class 379s over to operate services on the line, and some 802s could then be available for XC services to permit more Voyagers to be doubled-up. A move like this could be attractive to GBR as facilities for their maintenance exist at both ends of the NE/SW route, and if concessions are let on a regional basis crews trained for operating these bi-modes and with some route knowledge (Parkway to the south west and north east from Leeds and Doncaster) would already exist.

I know it's easy to pick holes in the above, but I'm trying to get across the message that we need to get away from just thinking about the existing structure of TOCs when considering the question 'Cross country new traction'; in simple terms, anything's possible, and if its better short-term for GBR to swop TPE's 802s for XC's Voyagers with the latter being replaced by new electric trains as soon as the whole of the trans Pennine route is electrified, then so be it. And while thinking about TPE, it would be possible for a class 397 to operate a late Manchester - Birmingham with a return early working the following day if it was commercially advantageous to GBR - such a service would no longer need to be a Voyager

Finally, so far as I'm aware we don't know if GBR will be able to own its own traction and rolling stock; if that is possible, it might be possible for GBR to purchase stock like the 379s from their owners at an advantageous price if they tell them that they're not interested in leasing the sets at the present rates, and won't there also be "spare" class 350s too? But I can't see how either of these could be used as new traction on XC!
 

the sniper

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Not sure where WMT comes into this? Most people have suggested that, if the Liverpool-Norwich is split (which has been postponed indefinitely), that the Liverpool-Nottingham would be handed to TransPennine or Northern. Either way round, nothing to do with CrossCountry, who only share tracks between Sheffield/Chesterfield and Peterborough/Ely.

There was a mention in last month's Modern Railways that XC and the DfT are actively looking at new Leeds-Glasgow services over the S&C, using the HSTs - which would make sense if they are surplus given that a fair amount of money was spent on them recently.

Worth mentioning that the same article talks about the remapping of the local Leicester/Nottingham to Birmingham services to the West Mids concession, 'enhancing' the Cardiff to Nottingham with Voyagers cascaded from Avanti, with then spare 170s being used to increase capacity on Birmingham - Stanstead.
 

Meerkat

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Great British Railways (GBR) will have been established, and all contracts entered into by TOCs will be transferred over to GBR by means of statutory transfer schemes; GBR will then have the freedom to decide were the trains will be used, and they will enter into contracts with the private sector to man the stations, operate the services, etc (like London Overground).
Do we know this? I only skim read the document but I didn’t get this impression at all.
I read it as TOCs staying as they are conceptually, just as concessions (and only temporarily for the ’profitable’ ones).
So TOCs would still control their own leases, but the DfT (sorry, GBR) would have more leverage over making TOCs swap stock around whilst they are concessions.
For XC this would involve GBR/DfT adjusting the payments to allow XC to take on more Voyagers (presumably cheap as a buyers market for them) or lease new bi-modes (or both).
 

Aictos

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Regarding XC, I believe class 170s (or equivalents which can take advantage of SP differentials) are best suited to the Birmingham - Stansted service, but if they can be accommodated at Stansted 4-car sets would be better than 3-car ones; from my experience, the vehicle's layout with their wide doors are well suited for this service - much better than most of the other types of trains which have been suggested on this thread.
4 car Class 170s could fit but there would be 0.52m left of the platform which I don't know if it will be acceptable for signal sighting etc, saying that one way around it would be to extend the platform past the existing buffers just enough so a 4 car Class 170 could fit.

As to stating that 4 car Class 170s or equivalents to be used on the route, they would be just the right length providing all services were the same length meaning a end to 2 car operation on the route.
 

Meerkat

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Re the discussion on the Voyagers being too young to scrap even if the DfT said tomorrow that bi-modes would be funded when is the earliest they could be in service? Got to write a spec, run a bidding competition, wait for factory time, test and train.
 

Domh245

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Re the discussion on the Voyagers being too young to scrap even if the DfT said tomorrow that bi-modes would be funded when is the earliest they could be in service? Got to write a spec, run a bidding competition, wait for factory time, test and train.

We're expecting a ~2(& a bit) year gap from order to entry into service for the 805 and 807s for Avanti, and those are fairly straightforward in that they're fairly similar to the other 80x. EMR's 810s, being a bespoke design requiring more design and verification time are getting on for a 3.5 year gap from order placed to entry into service (Aug 19 to Jan 2023). Could quite conceivably be getting on for 5 years before the last voyager is replaced from the announcement of a new order given quantities (63 units like-for-like voyager & HST). Possibly longer depending on how busy Newton Aycliffe is with other orders (finishing off existing 80x builds, any 80x cracking rectification, HS2 order)
 

option

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Buying bi-modes for XC would be an expensive way of trying to kick a can down the road...

Trains from the south-west wouldn't be under wires until Bromsgrove, & then only as far as Proof House junction. There's no wires at Derby.
Trains from the south-east don't get under wires until New St.

There are no plans for wiring those big sections. Snow Hill lines are getting new DMUs, so I expect electrification there to be at least a decade away.
Scotland has a plan to 2035.
I would expect/hope the priority in England is finishing off the MML & GWML schemes, as that would be an easy way of reducing diesel use. Then do the urban areas & obvious infill (Chiltern)


So, what does all that mean for XC?
If you can get another 20 years from the Voyagers (& the 222s are ~5 years younger), then a decision on new stock can be left for 15 years.
That gives you 15 years of electrification, & some idea of the next 5 years.
Gives you 15 years of battery development.
Gives you 15 years to assess the impacts of HS2 etc.
 

Stephen Lee

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Do we know this? I only skim read the document but I didn’t get this impression at all.
I read it as TOCs staying as they are conceptually, just as concessions (and only temporarily for the ’profitable’ ones).
So TOCs would still control their own leases, but the DfT (sorry, GBR) would have more leverage over making TOCs swap stock around whilst they are concessions.
For XC this would involve GBR/DfT adjusting the payments to allow XC to take on more Voyagers (presumably cheap as a buyers market for them) or lease new bi-modes (or both).
Wondered what are the advantage/disadvantage of GBR's establishment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Buying bi-modes for XC would be an expensive way of trying to kick a can down the road...

Trains from the south-west wouldn't be under wires until Bromsgrove, & then only as far as Proof House junction. There's no wires at Derby.
Trains from the south-east don't get under wires until New St.

There are no plans for wiring those big sections. Snow Hill lines are getting new DMUs, so I expect electrification there to be at least a decade away.
Scotland has a plan to 2035.
I would expect/hope the priority in England is finishing off the MML & GWML schemes, as that would be an easy way of reducing diesel use. Then do the urban areas & obvious infill (Chiltern)


So, what does all that mean for XC?
If you can get another 20 years from the Voyagers (& the 222s are ~5 years younger), then a decision on new stock can be left for 15 years.
That gives you 15 years of electrification, & some idea of the next 5 years.
Gives you 15 years of battery development.
Gives you 15 years to assess the impacts of HS2 etc.
Bro, bear in mind that electrification progress can be halted due to lack of funding so that's why TOCs may consider Bi-Modes/Hydro/Battery
 
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Meerkat

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Buying bi-modes for XC would be an expensive way of trying to kick a can down the road...

Trains from the south-west wouldn't be under wires until Bromsgrove, & then only as far as Proof House junction. There's no wires at Derby.
Trains from the south-east don't get under wires until New St.

There are no plans for wiring those big sections. Snow Hill lines are getting new DMUs, so I expect electrification there to be at least a decade away.
Scotland has a plan to 2035.
I would expect/hope the priority in England is finishing off the MML & GWML schemes, as that would be an easy way of reducing diesel use. Then do the urban areas & obvious infill (Chiltern)


So, what does all that mean for XC?
If you can get another 20 years from the Voyagers (& the 222s are ~5 years younger), then a decision on new stock can be left for 15 years.
That gives you 15 years of electrification, & some idea of the next 5 years.
Gives you 15 years of battery development.
Gives you 15 years to assess the impacts of HS2 etc.
I see you deliberately picked the least wired service! And left out Bristol, which will probably be wired soon and could get XC diesels out the city air. Looks like Derby to Sheffield is on the cards and then to the ECML both ways from there would make a lot of sense.
XC run a lot of diesel miles under the wires and into cities so bi-modes would be a massive step forward. Their existence would also provide immediate users for electrification schemes that otherwise wouldn’t remove whole services.
 

option

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Bro, bear in mind that electrification progress can be halted due to lack of funding so that's why TOCs may consider Bi-Modes/Hydro/Battery

So why buy new stuff that could spend the first 10 years of it's life only running on diesel, say 2025-2035, when you could take existing stock & run it on diesel in the same time period? What's the gain?
There isn't a good non-diesel bi-mode available now, there might be ones in 15 years time.


I see you deliberately picked the least wired service! And left out Bristol, which will probably be wired soon and could get XC diesels out the city air. Looks like Derby to Sheffield is on the cards and then to the ECML both ways from there would make a lot of sense.
XC run a lot of diesel miles under the wires and into cities so bi-modes would be a massive step forward. Their existence would also provide immediate users for electrification schemes that otherwise wouldn’t remove whole services.

I've just seen a predicted date of 2027 for Sheffield, Derby would be after that. When's Birmingham-Derby, 2030+? Bristol Parkway-Bromsgrove? South of Bristol? What about past Sheffield?




There must be a %mileage point where a bi-mode becomes reasonable? Lets say it's 50% mileage under wires, what is it currently for XC? When would it be 50%?

Also, surely you buy them when there are works in progress to electrify some of the routes they'll be used on, that get you to that %mileage?
 

The Planner

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There must be a %mileage point where a bi-mode becomes reasonable? Lets say it's 50% mileage under wires, what is it currently for XC? When would it be 50%?

Also, surely you buy them when there are works in progress to electrify some of the routes they'll be used on, that get you to that %mileage?
Depends how you diagram them, I suspect the pre COVID Bristol Manchesters werent far off 50% mileage if you ignore them interworking the Bournemouth.
 

Meerkat

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There must be a %mileage point where a bi-mode becomes reasonable? Lets say it's 50% mileage under wires, what is it currently for XC? When would it be 50%?
Thats purely a railway economics view, and doesn’t take into account where the wiring is - turning off the diesels through Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, York, Newcastle, and Edinburgh city centres would be a big win (especially for New Street)
If they are bimode then city/town electric islands might become worthwhile - for a random example wire Penzance to Long Rock, or Plymouth to Laira, to reduce running and idling in urban areas.
 

the sniper

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Depends how you diagram them, I suspect the pre COVID Bristol Manchesters werent far off 50% mileage if you ignore them interworking the Bournemouth.

Just out of curiosity Planner, is there any work currently ongoing that you know of to separate the diagrams of the Nottingham/Leicester locals from the Cardiffs and Stansteds or is it still early days yet/just talk?
 

option

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Thats purely a railway economics view, and doesn’t take into account where the wiring is - turning off the diesels through Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, York, Newcastle, and Edinburgh city centres would be a big win (especially for New Street)
If they are bimode then city/town electric islands might become worthwhile - for a random example wire Penzance to Long Rock, or Plymouth to Laira, to reduce running and idling in urban areas.

Which means a completely new approach to how we currently do electrification, which could be better.
However, it still means that you need to have committed to those schemes to make buying bi-modes worth it.


Lets say that XC ordered new bi-modes, to replace everything they've already got. Likely to be 2025 when you get them into service. That's just 5 years before you can't buy a new diesel/petrol car or van. NXBus have stated that they aren't buying any new diesel buses.
But what if your not ordering until 2025, & then having them in service in 2030? Are they being used as an excuse to not do the wiring? It's also going to look very iffy introducing new diesel engines on trains just as people can't buy them!


Today, 09:00-10:00
BNS - 9 XC services on diesel
Moor St - 12 services on diesel
The Moor St services have much more urban mileage than the XC services do in the area, so from a West Midlands point of view, it would be more beneficial to push to electrify the Snow Hill lines. (even more so if the franchise stays somewhat under the control of WMCA)



As i've already suggested, best for XC to run with the stock they've already got, & can get easily in the future, which likely has another 15-20 years life in it, & then in 15 years time look at replacement.
 

JonathanH

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Just out of curiosity Planner, is there any work currently ongoing that you know of to separate the diagrams of the Nottingham/Leicester locals from the Cardiffs and Stansteds or is it still early days yet/just talk?
Why is splitting the Nottingham / Leicester locals off from the Cardiff / Stansted services desirable? The fact that the shorter distance services are currently interworked with the long distance services is presumably the most efficient way of running them. Are there really benefits from West Midlands Railway running the shorter services? Having one operator on the routes is often seen as desirable.
 

the sniper

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Why is splitting the Nottingham / Leicester locals off from the Cardiff / Stansted services desirable? The fact that the shorter distance services are currently interworked with the long distance services is presumably the most efficient way of running them. Are there really benefits from West Midlands Railway running the shorter services? Having one operator on the routes is often seen as desirable.

I'm not sure how desirable it is, but that seems to be the way the WMCA, DfT and Cross Country want to go?
 

JonathanH

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I'm not sure how desirable it is, but that seems to be the way the WMCA, DfT and Cross Country want to go?
If it terminated at Burton or Nuneaton and there were more local stations, I think they would have a point, but as it is, it isn't clear why you would have two different operators running Birmingham to Nottingham services calling at very similar stations. When Central Trains tried to fit in extra trains between Birmingham and Derby in the early part of the 2000s, it was one of the issues that made Operation Princess fail.
 

the sniper

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If it terminated at Burton or Nuneaton and there were more local stations, I think they would have a point, but as it is, it isn't clear why you would have two different operators running Birmingham to Nottingham services calling at very similar stations. When Central Trains tried to fit in extra trains between Birmingham and Derby in the early part of the 2000s, it was one of the issues that made Operation Princess fail.

Presumably for that very reason, WMCA know they've got to take on the Nottingham/Leicester's if they want any involvement/enhancement, as they won't get in anything extra stopping short in the short to medium term. Arguably you might as well run anything to Nuneaton or Burton beyond them anyway. Isn't there an aspiration for 5tph between Derby and Birmingham?

Could the Nottingham stoppers be slowed down to run via Coleshill Parkway to further differentiate the fast and slow services and increase its services?
 
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Meerkat

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However, it still means that you need to have committed to those schemes to make buying bi-modes worth it.
Why? It takes diesels out of a number of city centres and drastically reduces the diesels under wires.

It's also going to look very iffy introducing new diesel engines on trains just as people can't buy them!
introducing trains that use a lot less diesel than the current ones, and lots of people in wired areas won’t even realise they are diesel
 

The Planner

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Just out of curiosity Planner, is there any work currently ongoing that you know of to separate the diagrams of the Nottingham/Leicester locals from the Cardiffs and Stansteds or is it still early days yet/just talk?
Not in the short term.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Could the Nottingham stoppers be slowed down to run via Coleshill Parkway to further differentiate the fast and slow services and increase its services?
Thats a chunky slow down and also adds more crossing moves at Water Orton and Kingsbury.
 

option

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Why? It takes diesels out of a number of city centres and drastically reduces the diesels under wires.


introducing trains that use a lot less diesel than the current ones, and lots of people in wired areas won’t even realise they are diesel

Not Bristol or anywhere south of it, or Derby, or Chesterfield, or anywhere between Birmingham & Bournemouth (there's only the 17miles between Reading & Didcot with wires.)


How much extra weight is the electric part of these bi-modes? What affect is that having on diesel usage when not under the wires?


Having XC get bi-modes in 2025, with say a 40year lifespan, means that you can put off thinking about electrifying routes south of Bristol, Birmingham-Bristol, Oxford-Birmingham, & other infill, until 2055 onwards.
But there's a problem. The UK has legislated to be net zero by 2050, so you'd have to have removed the engines from bi-modes by then, which means electrification as well.
If they stick with the Voyagers, they'll need replacing by ~2040, which means thinking about those routes has to be done from 2030.



At what point do you commit to not buying any more diesels?
If it's ok to buy them in 2025, why not 2035, or 2045?

If there's a commitment to not order any more diesels/diesel bi-modes from now, then it forces government to actually come up with a long-term plan & commit to it.


The only stock on XC that actually needs replacement in the immediate future is the 5 HSTs, & that's easily dealt with by taking on the 221s from Avanti.
 

the sniper

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Not in the short term.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Thats a chunky slow down and also adds more crossing moves at Water Orton and Kingsbury.

Indeed it would, I imagine the number of conflicting moves would would make it a non-starter.
 

Meerkat

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But there's a problem. The UK has legislated to be net zero by 2050, so you'd have to have removed the engines from bi-modes by then, which means electrification as well.
This isn’t a problem. You have gone part electric earlier, and that has to be good.
 

Bevan Price

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It seemed to me - and no more than that, I have no direct evidence - that "levelling up" inter-regional services has been viewed as a Good Thing throughout the privatised railway era.

So TPE has successively become more of an IC-standard operator, the Welsh Government has commissioned IC-like services from South to North Wales, Northern has its 'Connect' services, and so on. It's a fairly easy thing for the SRA/DfT/whoever it is this week to specify, and a fairly easy thing for franchise bidders to promise. Putting Birmingham-Stansted in with XC achieved that on paper, without introducing a new operator to New Street (as would have happened if the East Midlands franchise got it).

Unfortunately, in XC's case, the franchise has turned out as an Arriva-by-numbers minimum effort exercise, and the Birmingham-Stansted service really isn't any better off than when it was run by CT - who, in turn, didn't do much over Regional Railways Central other than replacing the 158s with 170s.
Arguably, Birmingham / Stansted is worse with XC than with CT, because the already inadequate number of standard class seats was reduced to make room for first class seating.
 

daodao

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Arguably, Birmingham / Stansted is worse with XC than with CT, because the already inadequate number of standard class seats was reduced to make room for first class seating.
Why is the Birmingham/Stansted service not transferred to the logical operator for the area, namely the East Midlands franchise? It could then be interworked with the Norwich service from Peterborough, as was the case under BR pre-privatisation, to provide 2-hourly Birmingham-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted services. There is also little need/justification for first class on this route.

Would not the Nottingham/Leicester to Birmingham services be better operated by EMT, and the Cardiff-Birmingham service by TfW, as used to be the case? All to be standard class only.
 
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