Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Journeyman]

That attitude's likely to get costs awarded against you (or at least no order as to costs, meaning you bear your own costs) for failing to comply with pre-action conduct and protocols in the civil procedure rules. Litigation is expected to be a last resort and parties are required to engage in negotiation/mediation or use an ombudsman scheme, not jump straight into court.

Agreed, this is an extremely trivial thing to sue over, and verges on vexatious.

 

[Wolfie]

That attitude's likely to get costs awarded against you (or at least no order as to costs, meaning you bear your own costs) for failing to comply with pre-action conduct and protocols in the civil procedure rules. Litigation is expected to be a last resort and parties are required to engage in negotiation/mediation or use an ombudsman scheme, not jump straight into court.

That l agree with to quite a large extent and l'm very, having been involved in civil litigation in Courts right up to Supreme Court level for HMG, aware of the Civil Procedures and Rules. Of course, you carefully ignore the fact that a company response along the lines in the post that l responded to is them completely ignoring their obligations under the very same document....
Costs are rarely if ever awarded under the County Court channel unless behaviour is particularly egregious. Also if you are a litigant in person you get to pick the Court venue most convenient to you. Hence the TOC get the delights of their own legal and travel costs etc.... I would of course be claiming for interest at the statutory rate too...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2021 ==

Agreed, this is an extremely trivial thing to sue over, and verges on vexatious.

I would suggest that post implies that you don't have the first clue about what actually constitutes vexatious litigation. Allow me to assist you. Legal action for breach of contract is perfectly valid.

Guidance Note: Vexatious Litigants and the Treasury Solicitor

www.gov.uk

 

[Journeyman]

I would suggest that post implies that you don't have the first clue about what actually constitutes vexatious litigation. Legal action for breach of contract is perfectly valid.

I very much doubt non-provision of catering is "breach of contract". It's frustrating, but actually taking a TOC to court over it seems like an astonishing overreaction to me.

 

[Wolfie]

I very much doubt non-provision of catering is "breach of contract". It's frustrating, but actually taking a TOC to court over it seems like an astonishing overreaction to me.

If that catering provision is the only difference between first class and Standard Premium and it isn't actually provided then refusal to refund the cost differential between the two is wholely unreasonable and as such merits action.

 

[Journeyman]

If that catering provision is the only difference between first class and Standard Premium and it isn't actually provided then refusal to refund the cost differential between the two is wholely unreasonable and as such merits action.

If you say so...personally I've got bigger things to worry about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you say so...personally I've got bigger things to worry about.

I don't think it's minor. It's in effect bait and switch, which is illegal.

If it happens, Avanti should be offering a refund down to the applicable Standard Premium fare. If First Class is supposed to be on a train and is not present the difference is refunded, so why is this different?

Calling part of the package "complimentary" is fraudulent. A complimentary item is one provided without any expectation and not being used to promote the offering in any way, e.g. when product samples are sometimes handed out in stations.

 

[Wolfie]

I don't think it's minor. It's in effect bait and switch, which is illegal.

If it happens, Avanti should be offering a refund down to the applicable Standard Premium fare. If First Class is supposed to be on a train and is not present the difference is refunded, so why is this different?

Calling part of the package "complimentary" is fraudulent. A complimentary item is one provided without any expectation and not being used to promote the offering in any way, e.g. when product samples are sometimes handed out in stations.

Exactly. Indeed, the consequence of Avanti filing in Court papers a defence which stated that the only difference between First Class and Standard Premium was "complimentary" catering which could be withdrawn without compensation would only, once the media picked up on it (which you better believe that they would), result in sales of First Class tickets tending towards zero. Hardly the revenue booster that Avanti appear to be seeking...

 

[voyagerdude220]

I was reserving a First Class seat on Avanti this afternoon and it offered a seat in coach H. Surely this shouldn't be offered incase it's a 9 car Pendolino, with H being Standard Premium?

 

[island]

It is a reasonable position that non-provision of first class catering is a breach of contract on Avanti where it is in many cases the only difference between first and standard premium (lounge access might be relevant depending on the passenger's journey). I have not been able to find anything on their website to suggest that Avanti claim the catering is "complimentary" or anything other than an integral part of what the customer is paying for when they purchase a first class ticket.

As with any breach of contract, the first course of action is to approach the merchant to discuss remedies; the usual one in this case would be a price reduction (i.e. partial refund). I have received same in the past from Virgin (as was) for non-provision of first-class catering. Presuming that their successors will for some reason not follow the same course seems a little negative.

 

[Wolfie]

It is a reasonable position that non-provision of first class catering is a breach of contract on Avanti where it is in many cases the only difference between first and standard premium (lounge access might be relevant depending on the passenger's journey). I have not been able to find anything on their website to suggest that Avanti claim the catering is "complimentary" or anything other than an integral part of what the customer is paying for when they purchase a first class ticket.

As with any breach of contract, the first course of action is to approach the merchant to discuss remedies; the usual one in this case would be a price reduction (i.e. partial refund). I have received same in the past from Virgin (as was) for non-provision of first-class catering. Presuming that their successors will for some reason not follow the same course seems a little negative.

Considered and l wouldn't disagree any of it. The starting position of my earlier posts was another poster's posited refusal to make such a refund.

 

[BHXDMT]

I was reserving a First Class seat on Avanti this afternoon and it offered a seat in coach H. Surely this shouldn't be offered incase it's a 9 car Pendolino, with H being Standard Premium?

Whenever I've been on a 9 car recently, H has indeed had reservations and has been used for First Class passengers. It caused somewhat of a commotion last week because the antimacassars said Standard Premium... the time before that it had no antimacassars at all.

 

[Butts]

Whenever I've been on a 9 car recently, H has indeed had reservations and has been used for First Class passengers. It caused somewhat of a commotion last week because the antimacassars said Standard Premium... the time before that it had no antimacassars at all.

They've certainly mangled the introduction of this new Class of Travel big style.

 

[Bevan Price]

If it happened to me l would go straight to Court if l didn't get the cost difference between First and Standard Premium immediately refunded. It's about time that the rail industry was taught some hard sharp lessons about consumer rights and contractual obligations. Sue every single time.

The easier option is to contact the local council trading standards department (or equivalent) / or the Advertising Standards Authority and ask them to investigate misleading adverts if a supplier (e.g. a TOC) fails to provide a service that they have advertised.

 

[island]

The easier option is to contact the local council trading standards department (or equivalent) / or the Advertising Standards Authority and ask them to investigate misleading adverts if a supplier (e.g. a TOC) fails to provide a service that they have advertised.

This might be easier but is likely to be less effective.

The ASA will not take it up because it is not a misleading advertisement – the supplier was offering something it intended, at the time of the advertisement, to fulfil. Only if there was a systematic non-provision (and the advertisement was not promptly updated) would there be a case.

Trading Standards departments are hopelessly under-resourced and over-burdened.

 

[142blue]

Still with a Senior Railcard those fares become manageable- if you can blag one and the Whisky comes back.

They should serve Free Alcohol on all services like BA do, morning noon and night.

It's worrying this obsession with free alcohol in pretty much every post....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2021 ==

Not everything in life revolves around free alcohol you know.

Well said

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2021 ==

Wow, Weekend First can cost £50 now!? When I were a lad it were £2. Those were the days.

That fare no longer exists, the upgrade is to the 1st anytime

 

[takno]

It's worrying this obsession with free alcohol in pretty much every post....

The free alcohol does appear to at least half of the difference between standard premium and first. The ongoing removal from trains of spirits, which are the one product with a virtually infinite shelf life, is one of the most blatant bits of Covid-inspired penny-pinching, and continues to blight the actual first class product. This will prevent an effective roll-out of Standard Premium, so it's extremely on-topic.

Personally I think it's a pretty expensive way to get free booze. On the other hand it's unlikely for people to make enough long-distance first-class journeys for the free booze they get to constitute a problem.

 

[domcoop7]

This might be easier but is likely to be less effective.

The ASA will not take it up because it is not a misleading advertisement – the supplier was offering something it intended, at the time of the advertisement, to fulfil. Only if there was a systematic non-provision (and the advertisement was not promptly updated) would there be a case.

Trading Standards departments are hopelessly under-resourced and over-burdened.

Trading standards wouldn't be in the slightest bit interested in something like this.

That l agree with to quite a large extent and l'm very, having been involved in civil litigation in Courts right up to Supreme Court level for HMG, aware of the Civil Procedures and Rules. Of course, you carefully ignore the fact that a company response along the lines in the post that l responded to is them completely ignoring their obligations under the very same document....
Costs are rarely if ever awarded under the County Court channel unless behaviour is particularly egregious. Also if you are a litigant in person you get to pick the Court venue most convenient to you. Hence the TOC get the delights of their own legal and travel costs etc.... I would of course be claiming for interest at the statutory rate too...

I would suggest that post implies that you don't have the first clue about what actually constitutes vexatious litigation. Allow me to assist you. Legal action for breach of contract is perfectly valid.

You make some good points, but I wouldn't over-egg your pudding, and I think you've got the wrong end of the stick about some of the concepts you are quoting.

Costs are awarded in the County Court each and every day. It is, in fact, extremely rare for costs not to be awarded.

What you are, I believe, referring to is that a claim allocated to the Small Claims Track (one of three case tracks in the County Court for civil proceedings) limits costs to certain fixed amounts and doesn't allow a successful party to recover their lawyers' fees as costs (except a successful claimant can recover fixed costs on issue of the claim under Part 45 of the Civil Procedure Rules). Court fees, witness expenses and recompense for preparation time at the rate of (IIRC) £9.25 per hour can be awarded to the winner.

Likewise, on allocation, the court would under normal circumstances transfer a claim against a corporation (e.g.. a train company) to the nearest court for the Claimant. Doesn't matter if you are litigant in person or not (and you don't - usually - get to pick a court venue: it's allocated based on your postcode).

In reality the biggest hurdle anyone wanting to go down this road faces is the hassle and cost. There's a court fee to pay. And a hearing fee to pay if it does not settle first. And a lot of time wasted, both in filling in forms, preparing documents and attending a court hearing.

I'd expect if it's a one-off, the Train Company concerned would think it isn't worth the hassle and offer a settlement (e.g. a free ticket) and if that isn't accepted pay out. It would certainly cost them less than defending a case.

But not always. The problem is, every so often a Facebook Lawyer (TM) will issue a claim against somebody like a TOC or British Gas or whoever, and add a few hundred pounds in "compensation" and all sort of other things. They then get judgment by default because the claim paperwork gets lost (which happens a lot - somebody got a judgment against Boris Johnson a few months ago by doing that). Mr / Ms Facebook Lawyer(TM) then goes off to the local paper / the Daily Mail / social media and blags about how they "won" their case, which the papers will happily run as a story. And it encourages other Facebook Lawyers(TM) to do the same and is therefore an even bigger hassle for the company being sued. So on occasion, they will fight these things no matter what it costs, just to send a message and stop anybody else getting similar ideas.

So you might pay your £35 court fee, and get lucky and they'll send you a cheque. Or you might find yourself having had a £35 court fee, a £25 hearing fee, having to re-write your Particulars of Claim, doing a witness statement and a bundle of documents, and taking a day off work to face a fancy barrister in court for an hour talking about the Conditions of Carriage and the European Consumer Rights Directive 12 months later. And then lose and have to pay another £150 in expenses to the Defendant.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

 

[Trackman]

I was reserving a First Class seat on Avanti this afternoon and it offered a seat in coach H. Surely this shouldn't be offered incase it's a 9 car Pendolino, with H being Standard Premium?

I think this has been discussed elsewhere. I tried booking a Scottish service and it offered H then a 9 car turned up the day after. Same with Manchester trains, it wont offer coach H (in my experience) then a 11 car turns up. This is not helping First class quotas either.

That fare no longer exists, the upgrade is to the 1st anytime

It did a few weeks ago and it's still on BR Fares.
Basically it is the off-peak weekday First upgrade and applies to the axed Weekend First, unless they have scrapped it recently.

Slightly OT: There was an email recently from Avanti about a new pricing feature. Did anyone do the survey? Reason I'm asking I forgot to check if there was a notice not to divulge any information (Like with the Standard Premium one). Just checking before I start a thread about it.

 

[Falcon1200]

While there are doubtless 9 and 11 car Pendolino diagrams, from personal experience (catching the same train on different days) it seems completely random what actually turns up (not aided of course by severe disruption such as that on Monday.

 

[TheDavibob]

Slightly OT: There was an email recently from Avanti about a new pricing feature. Did anyone do the survey? Reason I'm asking I forgot to check if there was a notice not to divulge any information (Like with the Standard Premium one). Just checking before I start a thread about it.

Just did the aforementioned survey (reading this post reminded they'd sent it to me) and I didn't notice any notices about not divulging the information.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Currently on the 17:41 Preston to Glasgow service, noticed that she announced Standard Premium being available on this 9 car set, but with a handful of First Class reservations in them.

Avanti really need to get this sorted now, perhaps the reservation system is still a bit dodgy?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Currently on the 17:41 Preston to Glasgow service, noticed that she announced Standard Premium being available on this 9 car set, but with a handful of First Class reservations in them.

Avanti really need to get this sorted now, perhaps the reservation system is still a bit dodgy?

Hmm.. Sounds just like I've experienced at my ticket office occasionally recently- trying to reserve a First Class seat on an Avanti Pendolino and the system offered a seat in coach H.

I'm assuming the catering staff wouldn't have ventured into coach H and offered any First Class ticket holders the First Class catering offer.

 

[Trackman]

Someone on a voyager today was told there is no weekend upgrade and there is no premium first. It would be a £200 upgrade to First. First was empty.
Get a grip Avanti.

Avanti really need to get this sorted now, perhaps the reservation system is still a bit dodgy?

Perhaps? They know it's useless. They are supposedly updating the booking system 'soon' .. we will wait and see.

 

[All Line Rover]

Saw guards selling £25 upgrades in First today on the Manchester route. Is there still a Weekend 1st price with Std Premium around the £20 mark, or is it luck of the draw for catering depending on whether an upgrader chooses to sit in coach J or H?

All very confusing. I have no idea what to expect.

 

[Journeyman]

It does seem like Avanti have managed to make a remarkable mess out of something that should be very simple.

 

[ScottGallagher]

No Standard Premium announcements when I travelled recently either nor with Friends of mine who went to Scotland last week. Why on earth have staff not been properly briefed.

This lot really are Fawlty Towers wrapped in TOC paper.

 

[Falcon1200]

It does seem like Avanti have managed to make a remarkable mess out of something that should be very simple.

No Standard Premium announcements when I travelled recently either nor with Friends of mine who went to Scotland last week. Why on earth have staff not been properly briefed.

I would have to agree; On recent journeys there has been no visible external signage denoting Standard Premium, nor do I recall any announcements about it. And Avanti's own website has a link to a seating plan which a) shows 11-car Pendolino only with b) coaches G,H,J and K all still shown as First Class:

About our Trains | Train Seating Plans | Avanti West Coast

Discover our fleet of Pendolino, Evero and Super Voyager trains, all designed to deliver a speedy and comfortable travel experience for every customer.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[route101]

No Standard Premium announcements when I travelled recently either nor with Friends of mine who went to Scotland last week. Why on earth have staff not been properly briefed.

This lot really are Fawlty Towers wrapped in TOC paper.

Same here when I travelled to and from Glasgow last week. Sticking to standard as you still have a seat free next to you.

 

[142blue]

Just to clarify on the 1st class £50 upgrades on weekdays, these have now stopped

£25 upgrades are to premium not 1st, 7 days a week

There is no weekend first, it's the ticket you have take that value from anytime first single

 

[Cantab26]

There is no weekend first

No one seems to have informed National Rail Enquiries

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2021 ==

it's the ticket you have take that value from anytime first single

A tad over-simplistic: if purchased prior to boarding (or onboard if that is not possible) then it is the appropriate First Class fare that is used.