New or extended through route possibilities

[Philip]

Yes, but you are willfully ignoring the practicality of boarding the demand from Piccadilly at those platforms.

A lot of the problems there were caused by poor coordination and communication leading to unnecessarily overcrowded platforms. With the new screens, one way systems and the instruction for passengers to wait in the lounge until their train comes in, the problem isn't nearly as bad now and I don't see it being different potentially for London services.

 

[zwk500]

A lot of the problems there were caused by poor coordination and communication leading to unnecessarily overcrowded platforms. With the new screens, one way systems and the instruction for psssengers to wait in the lounge until their train comes in, the problem isn't nearly as bad now and I don't see it being different potentially for London services.

No, the problems are caused by the width (or lack of) and curvature of the platforms.

Although not built as part of the WCML, the Bolton route is arguably now a spur/loop of the WCML in the same way the Crewe to Manchester line is.

No, it isn't. The Bolton route is about connecting Manchester with Scotland, the function of the WCML is to connect places to London. WCML trains occasionally run via Bolton because other routes are closed, but if that made Bolton part of the WCML then you'd also have to put Bescot Stadium and Ribblehead on the WCML, as trains regularly divert (or used to) over the Stechford-Aston-Bescot-Wolves line and S&C.

The WCML is exceptionally difficult to define as it wasn't built as a continuous route, rather it's a later amalgamation of several groups of railways. However, Chester and Blackpool aren't generally considered part of the WCML so I think the argument for Bolton is spurious at best.

 

[Philip]

No, the problems are caused by the width (or lack of) and curvature of the platforms.

No, it isn't. The Bolton route is about connecting Manchester with Scotland, the function of the WCML is to connect places to London. WCML trains occasionally run via Bolton because other routes are closed, but if that made Bolton part of the WCML then you'd also have to put Bescot Stadium and Ribblehead on the WCML, as trains regularly divert (or used to) over the Stechford-Aston-Bescot-Wolves line and S&C.

The WCML is exceptionally difficult to define as it wasn't built as a continuous route, rather it's a later amalgamation of several groups of railways. However, Chester and Blackpool aren't generally considered part of the WCML so I think the argument for Bolton is spurious at best.

I have used the platforms under the new system and they are a lot better. Platform width isn't the main problem, it was the lack of passenger coordination. If going off platform width and visibility, should we prevent Avanti trains calling at Birmingham New Street? The platforms there are narrow too and being underground not very sighted along the length...
A London Euston/Blackpool North style system of holding passengers in the lounge is just what is needed there.

The WCML is about connecting Scotland and the Lakes to the North West, West Midlands and London and all inbetween, so I think that is a pretty good case for including Bolton/Preston as part of it, along with Wigan to Liverpool and Liverpool to Runcorn.

 

[zwk500]

I have used the platforms under the new system and they are a lot better. Platform width isn't the main problem, it was the lack of passenger coordination. If going off platform width and visibility, should we prevent Avanti trains calling at Birmingham New Street? The platforms there are narrow too and being underground not very sighted along the length...

New Street platforms are, for the most part, straight. They're also very well lit.

A London Euston/Blackpool North style system of holding passengers in the lounge is just what is needed there.

Trains run 2-3 minutes apart on Castlefield, and a Pendo will have no more than 2-3 minutes dwell. Managing crowds for the long-distance trains without obstructing local passengers will be difficult, especially as the concourse is rather far from the platforms so you either have to release the crowd early or stack them in the footbridge. Platforms at Euston are advertised a good 5-10 minutes in advance minimum, and all other trains are at separate platforms.

The WCML is about connecting Scotland and the Lakes to the North West, West Midlands and London and all inbetween, so I think that is a pretty good case for including Bolton/Preston as part of it, along with Wigan to Liverpool and Liverpool to Runcorn.

It's really not about intermediate journeys, apart from Scotland-Birmingham. The Lakes to the West Midlands and so forth are happy bonuses. Hence why there's been rather a lot of effort into speeding up London journeys for the past 70 years, from WCML Electrification through the APT to WCRM and now HS2.

 

[cle]

Defining the WCML is pointless and abstract. It is what the services are - there is no higher purpose or intent. At various points, it is local, regional and long-distance, and of course, freight. And often, all at once.

Manchester to Preston, like Liverpool to Wigan - is a branch from a city feeding into the line. Both are now electric, and have a mix of short and long distance services, including Liverpool-Glasgow. Bolton happens to benefit. Same as Wigan being on the main line. But that''s it.

Yes Manchester to Crewe/Colwich are branches too, but serving London. Which is 10x + Glasgow demand.


Philip, you can't espouse pandemic levels of demand on P13/14 as if that will be the status quo going forward. Nor are we quite like Japan with boarding HSR in 30 seconds. We do like to potter around and get settled on long distance rail like it is a flight and an occasion. HS2 might change that, especially at OOC. But termini will always have that more languid airport nature, I suspect.