Ridiculous fares on GWR

[miklcct]

57p per mile, way more than the cost of a car.

but a car is expensive because of London charge, parking charge, etc. and most importantly, a car is very slow compared to a 200 km/h train.

12p per mile more. Yes that's way more - £35 return. And over 10,000 miles they only pay 25p per mile (i.e. the marginal cost of the average car owner), which makes the train £100 more than a realistic price of a car.

The question is why are trains to painfully inefficent? A coach about £80 return for 2 people (or less).

The point of trains is that it is faster than any other form of transportation (not even an aeroplane in this scale), so it attracts business travellers with their off-peak fare for business travels.

 

[Envoy]

The more each user pays, the less capacity that needs to be provided, reducing costs. (Not that I am condoning some of the fare changes noted in this thread.)

But the fact is that trains are going about at certain times with plenty of empty seats = capacity that could be used perhaps by attracting people off Megabus/ National express. Naturally, it is desirable to have some spare capacity in order to have a turn up and pay on the day convenience without people being forced to stand. Allowance must also be made for trains having one section of their journey being at off peak time but hitting a peak time further on.

 

[miklcct]

If I look at BRFares now, the cheapest tiers for each of these fares (with 26-30 railcard discount has increased as follows:

Brighton to Salisbury (was £4.40, now £24.25)
Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads (was £5.45, now £8.25)
Bristol Temple Meads to Redruth (was £15.15, now £24.90)

Redruth to Bristol Temple Meads (was £8.15, now £24.90)
Bristol Temple Meads to Brighton via London (was £16.65, now £16.30)

A bit of a mixed bag, but some of this is making XC look cheap, especially given these are with a railcard.

Explain this to me:

An anytime day single from Brighton to Salisbury is £29.20 (route via Barnham) valid on all trains. There is an off-peak day single which is £28.70.

I must admit that now I'm spoiled in believing that middle-distance train travel in the UK is cheap because the journeys I have taken so far are Bournemouth - Brighton and Salisbury - Bristol!

 

[nw1]

An anytime day single from Brighton to Salisbury is £29.20 (route via Barnham) valid on all trains. There is an off-peak day single which is £28.70.

Not sure if Southern still do the £15-ish (£10 with a railcard) off-peak return from Brighton to Southampton, which they did around 2012/13. I remember there was a phase when a day return from Southampton to Eastbourne was significantly cheaper (£10 with railcard) than places quite a bit nearer, meaning that I travelled there twice in June 2013 within two weeks. (Aim was to walk the easternmost part of the South Downs Way, from Eastbourne to Lewes, the first occasion was very hazy so I returned two weeks later.. fares like that meant I could return for another attempt without having to think about the costs too much, despite it being perhaps a 160-mile round trip!)

If the cheaper Southern fares are still available, presumably you could split your ticket at Southampton to reduce the overall cost to Salisbury.

 

[miami]

If two people are going off peak at that price, wouldn't it make sense to get a two together Railcard for the journey, assuming they are not Railcard holders already?

They should scrap railcards and just give a 50% discount on a ticket for two people travelling together. It puts off occasional travellers. Certainly in the rare situations we could take the train somewhere either as a couple or as a family, we'll drive rather than the hastle and cost of jumping through hoops to get a railcard.

The point of trains is that it is faster than any other form of transportation (not even an aeroplane in this scale), so it attracts business travellers with their off-peak fare for business travels.

And I travel by train intercity . It's chaeper by car, but it's more convienient to drive to a major station (Crewe, Stafford, etc) and get the direct train to London or Birmingham

For leisure though with the family? Drive to the congestion charge area and tube the rest of the way. Far cheaper, far more convienient, and speed wise unless you're literally going to the city centre it's about the same.

But the fact is that trains are going about at certain times with plenty of empty seats = capacity that could be used perhaps by attracting people off Megabus/ National express.

The problem with that approach is you risk abstracting revenue. Instead of someone who is willing to pay £150 each way, they'll save themselves £250 and take the cheaper seats.

Currently business class seats from London to New York are the normal £8k return, despite the planes being practically empty (a friend flew to Toyko last week, there was 1 person in business, 3 in premium economy). Lowering the price to £800 might attract one or two more people, but it also loses the 1 person currently paying £8k (they'll pay £800 instead). That's a bad business decision.

The airlines excel at this type of pricing.

 

[nw1]

Currently business class seats from London to New York are the normal £8k return, despite the planes being practically empty (a friend flew to Toyko last week, there was 1 person in business, 3 in premium economy). Lowering the price to £800 might attract one or two more people, but it also loses the 1 person currently paying £8k (they'll pay £800 instead). That's a bad business decision.

The airlines excel at this type of pricing.

I'm surprised people - or companies - are willing to pay £8000 to sit in business class when economy is, well rather variable but perhaps £400 on average? Is paying 20 times more really worth the extra comfort business class gives you?

 

[johncrossley]

I'm surprised people - or companies - are willing to pay £8000 to sit in business class when economy is, well rather variable but perhaps £400 on average? Is paying 20 times more really worth the extra comfort business class gives you?

To the kind of people we are talking about £8,000 is nothing. It is like saying to a normal person, would you rather pay £10 for a business class seat to Tokyo or 50p for economy?

 

[zero]

I think the airfares to New York are currently at £7000 because the airlines don't want people to book them. Until non-US citizens can fly from the UK directly to the US, and people flying from the US to the UK don't have to quarantine at home for 10 days, excess flights are going to be cancelled which incurs rerouting / duty of care obligations. £7000 probably covers rerouting on any airline at any date. Once mass travel between the UK and US resumes I believe prices will drop to the more usual £2000 to £4000 at peak travel times but also £1000 in sales depending on how bookings are going.

 

[infobleep]

but a car is expensive because of London charge, parking charge, etc. and most importantly, a car is very slow compared to a 200 km/h train.

The point of trains is that it is faster than any other form of transportation (not even an aeroplane in this scale), so it attracts business travellers with their off-peak fare for business travels.

It depends on the route as to whether it is faster. Guildford to Portsmouth isn't faster than the car. Not is Guildford to Oxford, although you do have a wait at Reading and there may be certain times of a day when the train is faster.

 

[trainophile]

They should scrap railcards and just give a 50% discount on a ticket for two people travelling together. It puts off occasional travellers. Certainly in the rare situations we could take the train somewhere either as a couple or as a family, we'll drive rather than the hastle and cost of jumping through hoops to get a railcard.

But that would mean two people travelling together paying the same price that one person on their own was paying. I can't see that being workable.

 

[Darandio]

Certainly in the rare situations we could take the train somewhere either as a couple or as a family, we'll drive rather than the hastle and cost of jumping through hoops to get a railcard.

When did they make it so difficult?

 

[miklcct]

But that would mean two people travelling together paying the same price that one person on their own was paying. I can't see that being workable.

I believe that a 20-25% discount can be workable in this case.

 

[30907]

I believe that a 20-25% discount can be workable in this case.

Instead of the 34% offered to Railcard holders?

 

[mikeg]

Some TOCs already do this for off peak day returns only, such as Northern with their 'Duo' tickets, but this is only on key selected flows.

 

[Haywain]

rather than the hastle and cost of jumping through hoops to get a railcard.

That filling out a form and paying £30 is just so damn complicated, eh?

 

[miklcct]

Instead of the 34% offered to Railcard holders?

The railcard isn't free.

 

[2192]

Its better from a revenue perspective to sell 10 tickets for £150 than 100 tickets for £10

You might make more in the buffet car from the 100 cheap ticket holders than from the 10 who have paid through the nose.

 

[py_megapixel]

You might make more in the buffet car from the 100 cheap ticket holders than from the 10 who have paid through the nose.

The people who are actively seeking the cheapest fares probably won't buy refreshments on board at all. On the other hand, the people who aren't as price sensitive and were pleasantly surprised by the low fare might choose to spend more at the buffet. But I don't think in any case it will be enough to offset the difference between the first and standard class ticket price (though it doesn't necessarily have to, to make the company a profit)

 

[Haywain]

The railcard isn't free.

If you pay £30 for a railcard and immediately pay £34 less for a rail ticket it hasn't really cost anything, has it?

 

[miami]

You might make more in the buffet car from the 100 cheap ticket holders than from the 10 who have paid through the nose.

If you only cater to the 10 you might not need a buffet

Obviously the levels you pitch fares at aren't simplistic. A return on BA with a saturday night stay is far cheaper than one without, because they know business travellers who want to get home for the weekend are willing to pay more than leisure travellers for the same seat. On the other hand they also know that there aren't enough business travellers to fill every seat on every flight. The trick is to sell the cheap tickets while not cannibalising the expensive ones.

But that would mean two people travelling together paying the same price that one person on their own was paying. I can't see that being workable.

50% on the second ticket (or whatever the current discount is)

If you pay £30 for a railcard and immediately pay £34 less for a rail ticket it hasn't really cost anything, has it?

Nor is it a £34 discount. And the hassle of getting a railcard. And the extra risk when you find the railcard has been signed in the wrong type of pen or some other nonsense.

If you want to get more non-railway leisure passengers onto the railway (not something the railway really wants to do given how many routes are at capacity), getting rid of railcards would clearly be an improvement, especially F+F and Two-Together. Whether the extra revenue would offset existing railcard revenues (and the bad press in the express about 'discrimination' against old people if senior railcards weren't also free) is something for modellers.

In the meantime I'll be driving to London in August for a family holiday, because the hassle of driving to the station, parking there for £58, organising a railcard and paying £176 for the journey (including the railcard), compared with putting £35 petrol in the car, siting in private listening to an audio book and driving to London, and paying £75 to park in London.

(The extra wear and tear of an extra 300 miles on an already owned and maintained car is negligable)

Would a railcard discount with no hastle of filling in a form, and no money to pay, make the difference? Probably not, but it certainly doesn't help.

 

[Darandio]

Nor is it a £34 discount. And the hassle of getting a railcard. And the extra risk when you find the railcard has been signed in the wrong type of pen or some other nonsense.

You keep talking about hassle and jumping through hoops to get a railcard. I really don't get this, it's a straightforward process. And risk because the railcard is signed in the wrong pen? Come on.

 

[miami]

it's a straightforward process

It's a process, that's far more than no process. Last time I got one - about 5 years ago - they wanted photos from a booth like it was 1842. I assume it's more digital now.

The point is it's needless bureaucracy, which could well be the railway's middle name.

But there's still risks

potential prosecution over not yet activated railcard

my son purchased a train ticket to Tygwyn from Winchester on the 27/10/2014 not realising his rail card had expired, yet had selected to use the 16-25 railcard discount. A few days before travelling to Wales he realised his serious error and purchased a new railcard online on 2.11.14.He...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[johncrossley]

The Dutch railcard system is rather complicated but is more seamless as your ticket and the railcard are combined into one card. There are also plans which can be renewed on a monthly basis. When the plan expires, you simply pay the regular fare. Incidentally, a trip of similar distance in the Netherlands of London to Taunton would cost about £35 one-way at the most expensive time.

 

[alistairlees]

The casualty rate (killed or seriously injured) per billion vehicle miles is 427, according to https://assets.publishing.service.g...524/road-casualties-year-ending-june-2020.pdf

For a juorney of 300 miles, that suggests that there's a 1 in 7,806 chance of this happening to you. I hope it doesn't.

But given that there's 4 million + railcards in circulation (see https://media.raildeliverygroup.com/news/ready-for-download-16-25-and-network-railcards-go-digital) (normally, the number's reduced now), this would require 512 of these types of prosecution each year, for the risk to be about the same.

I very much doubt that there's 512 of these a year.

That suggests that the risk if being killed or seriously injured on your trip to London is higher than the railcard risk you describe.

As you say, there's always a risk. You just have to decide which risks you wish to take.

 

[Darandio]

It's a process, that's far more than no process. Last time I got one - about 5 years ago - they wanted photos from a booth like it was 1842. I assume it's more digital now.

The point is it's needless bureaucracy, which could well be the railway's middle name.

It depends entirely on the railcard. You mentioned travelling with family, if a family and friends railcard works for you then no photo required and applying is a simple process, just as it was 5 years ago. What it isn't is bureaucratic.

But there's still risks

potential prosecution over not yet activated railcard

my son purchased a train ticket to Tygwyn from Winchester on the 27/10/2014 not realising his rail card had expired, yet had selected to use the 16-25 railcard discount. A few days before travelling to Wales he realised his serious error and purchased a new railcard online on 2.11.14.He...

www.railforums.co.uk

A pretty unique set of events there with plenty of user error thrown in as well. If you have a valid railcard and follow what are a set of fairly simple conditions then there is very minimal risk as seen by 99.99% of railcard users every year.

 

[alistairlees]

Is that per *billion* or *million* miles? If it is actually per billion, then that risk is one thousand times lower than what you calculated.

Per billion.

Happy to be corrected, but the report basically says there were 427 KSIs per 1,000,000,000 vehicle miles

Miami is doing 300 vehicle miles.

So for there to be a chance of 1 KSI, 1,000,000,000 / 300 / 427 = 7,806.

Or have I made a mistake (apologies if so).

 

[johncrossley]

Per billion.

Happy to be corrected, but the report basically says there were 427 KSIs per 1,000,000,000 vehicle miles

Miami is doing 300 vehicle miles.

So for there to be a chance of 1 KSI, 1,000,000,000 / 300 / 427 = 7,806.

Or have I made a mistake (apologies if so).

No, I misread your initial message. Your arithmetic looks good to me. Apologies.

 

[miami]

So for there to be a chance of 1 KSI, 1,000,000,000 / 300 / 427 = 7,806.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/922717/reported-road-casualties-annual-report-2019.pdf

1 in 2.2 million chance of dying on a 300 mile motorway trip (105 deaths for 70 billion miles is 1 death per 666,666,666 miles (), so for 300 miles that's 1 in 2.2 million.

In my experience, ticket problems occur in well over 1 in 50 journeys

But the point remains -- why charge for railcards, thus avoiding the opportunity to have prices far cheaper and thus attracting more people?

In 2000 there were approximately 300,000 family and friends Railcards. Assuming that accounts for an average of 2 children, that would be 600,000 5-16 year olds benefiting from a railcard, and 8,400,000 not benefiting - i.e you're turning away 95% of your potential customers just to extract more revenue from your existing customers.

Given the average 4 person family already spends £300 a year paying for railways before they even get on a train, it seems odd to charge them even more to get a discount. People complain about too many tickets already, just assume that everyone has the appropiate railcard for their journey. Sell a single ticket for 2 adults and 2 children with the appropiate family discount. If you book a return for 2 people sell them as a single ticket and give a two-together discount. This would give cheaper fares (thus answering the "railway is too expensive" - the main reason people don't do long distance journeys on the train) and thus encourage more people to use the train.

 

[Haywain]

And the extra risk when you find the railcard has been signed in the wrong type of pen or some other nonsense.

Imaginary risk.

 

[miami]

Imaginary risk.

Trouble signing railcard

I've just renewed my (station-issued) 16-25 Railcard over the Internet, and it arrived in the post today. I've had quite a lot of trouble signing the back of it: since it seems to be made of shiny plastic, biros will produce a faint mark (if any) and gel and friction pens simply rest on the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Just more pointless barriers to taking my money (what is the overhead of running railcard schemes anyway)