Preston to York Useless Tickets

[premier01]

There could be an explanation for this however why is there a First Class ticket available when travelling from Preston to York on route 'Burnley'

Only Northern Trains operate on this route and they only have standard class available-travelling through Manchester wouldn't be allowed on this ticket so it seems pointless.

 

[142094]

The only possible reason I see for it is people may want to change onto a different service at Leeds to continue the journey on a faster TPE or XC service which will have 1st class. As it is only £1.50 more than a standard day single this is most likely the case. However there are a few other routes where there are 1st class tickets available for trains that only have standard class seating or where 1st is always declassified.

 

[premier01]

The only possible reason I see for it is people may want to change onto a different service at Leeds to continue the journey on a faster TPE or XC service which will have 1st class. As it is only £1.50 more than a standard day single this is most likely the case. However there are a few other routes where there are 1st class tickets available for trains that only have standard class seating or where 1st is always declassified.

I think there is also a 1st Class Ticket to Leeds on the same route from Preston and can't find any reason for that-guess the extra £1.50 is good option for covering the extra 30 mins.

 

[Lampshade]

As already posted you could change at Leeds for a service with First Class, which would explain why it's so cheap considering the very small amount of FC you'd get on this route.

 

[premier01]

As already posted you could change at Leeds for a service with First Class, which would explain why it's so cheap considering the very small amount of FC you'd get on this route.

Yes but still good value on basis that difference between Standard and 1st between Leeds and York is more than that.

The point about the Preston to Leeds first class ticket route Burnley is that can't find any reason why a 1st class ticket would be valid on this route.

 

[142094]

I think there is also a 1st Class Ticket to Leeds on the same route from Preston and can't find any reason for that-guess the extra £1.50 is good option for covering the extra 30 mins.

The only tickets Route Burnley for Preston - Leeds are standard class.

 

[John @ home]

The point about the Preston to Leeds first class ticket route Burnley is that can't find any reason why a 1st class ticket would be valid on this route.

A First Class Preston - Leeds via Burnley ticket could be used on an East Coast service between Bradford and Leeds or a Grand Central service between Halifax and Bradford.

 

[premier01]

A First Class Preston - Leeds via Burnley ticket could be used on an East Coast service between Bradford and Leeds or a Grand Central service between Halifax and Bradford.

It seems the ticket isn't available-thought it was but the York option is as friend recently bought this in error from TVM-with the next train going through Manchester not only could 1st class not be used but it wasn't valid at all on the TPE train-lucky conductor was ok with this-no extra cost.

This is why I raised the issue as thought it was strange-it seems there are tickets that do fall into this category and if so perhaps the TOC should be issued a penalty for issuing useless tickets.

 

[185]

The passenger may wish to step off at t'interchange, use GC just to Halifax, then reboard the Blackpool, as far as Preston. Ok maybe not. O

 

[yorkie]

This is why I raised the issue as thought it was strange-it seems there are tickets that do fall into this category and if so perhaps the TOC should be issued a penalty for issuing useless tickets.

I agree they should be issued penalties under certain circumstances, but charging £1.50 more for a ticket where the majority of the journey does not have FC, but where the part that does* usually has a premium of £4.10, is not something I have a problem with.

If you got your way and this ticket is withdrawn, what would someone sat in FC asking for a single to Blackpool to be sold? A FC single to Leeds + SC single from there to Preston? That would be £31, an increase of £5.60.

Your friend should have been charged a simple excess of £5.60 (if he sat in standard), I see the first guard waived that, did the second guard do so too? If so that was lucky, but if they had excessed him then he would not have paid any more than he would have done.

The railway companies are getting away with all sorts of scandalous actions against customers, but this is not one of them!

First Class fares should exist where the majority of the journey can only be done in Standard, but the extra cost should be negligible. £1.50 extra is nothing to complain about for 25 miles* in FC.

(* Assuming FC is only used between York and Leeds, which would usually be the case. However it is possible to get as far as Bradford or even Halifax in First Class)

 

[bradders1983]

A First Class Preston - Leeds via Burnley ticket could be used on an East Coast service between Bradford and Leeds or a Grand Central service between Halifax and Bradford.

Which leaves from the other station in Bradford, so doubt you would get many people opting for that

 

[Wyvern]

East Midlands Trains offer first class on the platform at Belper for Derby but not on their website. Only one train a day with First Class.

Belper to Nottingham I understand since someone might swap to Cross Country at Derby.

 

[premier01]

I agree they should be issued penalties under certain circumstances, but charging £1.50 more for a ticket where the majority of the journey does not have FC, but where the part that does* usually has a premium of £4.10, is not something I have a problem with.

If you got your way and this ticket is withdrawn, what would someone sat in FC asking for a single to Blackpool to be sold? A FC single to Leeds + SC single from there to Preston? That would be £31, an increase of £5.60.

Your friend should have been charged a simple excess of £5.60 (if he sat in standard), I see the first guard waived that, did the second guard do so too? If so that was lucky, but if they had excessed him then he would not have paid any more than he would have done.

The railway companies are getting away with all sorts of scandalous actions against customers, but this is not one of them!

First Class fares should exist where the majority of the journey can only be done in Standard, but the extra cost should be negligible. £1.50 extra is nothing to complain about for 25 miles* in FC.

(* Assuming FC is only used between York and Leeds, which would usually be the case. However it is possible to get as far as Bradford or even Halifax in First Class)

I also have no problem with this and don't want the ticket to be withdrawn.

It was my mistake-didn't think about the 1st class service between Leeds and York-available by changing at Leeds.

It was the principle of offering a 1st class ticket when it couldn't be used £1.50 or whatever-but I was incorrect-the supplement is actually quite reasonable.

As for my friend he was lucky on both the trains although it was a Saturday and very busy-again it was his mistake and he had no intention of using 1st Class at any point.

So are there any 1st Class tickets that are useless then.

 

[radamfi]

Didn't Northern Spirit or Arriva Trains Northern run refurbished 158s with First Class on this route? That might explain the existence of the First Class fare.

 

[Lampshade]

Didn't Northern Spirit or Arriva Trains Northern run refurbished 158s with First Class on this route? That might explain the existence of the a First Class fare.

Highly unlikely, ATN only ran the service to Bradford for which there is no current FC fare; it only got extended to York when Northern took over.

 

[D6700]

Didn't Northern Spirit or Arriva Trains Northern run refurbished 158s with First Class on this route? That might explain the existence of the First Class fare.

You beat me to it. I also think the fare may be a legacy from when York to Blackpool was part of the Trans Pennine Express operation (not the TOC) of Northern Spirit, which, as you rightly say, put some thicker seats at one end of the purple 158's and called it First Class.

 

[Anvil1984]

ATN did operate services to Blackpool North from Scarborugh and York as per pages 8 and 9 of the following document http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk//upload/pdf/s22-arrivanorth27sa-draftagree.pdf, they were originally part of the Transpennine brand but went to Northern in the split

 

[D6700]

Highly unlikely, ATN only ran the service to Bradford for which there is no current FC fare; it only got extended to York when Northern took over.

At one time, the stopping service between York and Leeds ran to Manchester Victoria, whilst York to Blackpool was a Trans Pennine Express, calling only at Garforth between York and Leeds.

The Blackpool route got downgraded and became the stopper between York and Leeds when an additional hourly train to Manchester Airport was added. This is the train that now only calls only at Garforth.

 

[yorkie]

I also have no problem with this and don't want the ticket to be withdrawn.

It was my mistake-didn't think about the 1st class service between Leeds and York-available by changing at Leeds.

It was the principle of offering a 1st class ticket when it couldn't be used £1.50 or whatever-but I was incorrect-the supplement is actually quite reasonable.

OK, no problem

As for my friend he was lucky on both the trains although it was a Saturday and very busy-again it was his mistake and he had no intention of using 1st Class at any point.

Good he actually beneffited from a lower fare then! I think the issue here is that TVMs are considered by many to be not very user friendly. A fact that was in the news a few months ago.

So are there any 1st Class tickets that are useless then.

I'm sure there are. But if there is any FC opportunity there probably should be a ticket for it. In the case of very little FC opportunity the difference should be small (like in this case). If FC accomodation is not available, the difference in fare can be refunded.

Didn't Northern Spirit or Arriva Trains Northern run refurbished 158s with First Class on this route?

Good question. ATN did used to run this service and there was a time when it had TransPennine Express branding and for a few months ATW/TPE guards swapped at Leeds. It is highly likely that units got swapped and 158s with FC got put on the service occasionally. But this would not have been diagrammed. The FC accomodation would have been declassified. Before the 'split' into different franchises for NT/TPE, units were more likely to end up on the wrong diagrams. There have been reports of Pacers on Trans Pennine workings in the 1980s/90s. On the opposite end of the scale, I have seen photos of a HST from Newcastle to Liverpool (this would have been loaned from InterCity to Regional Railways).

That might explain the existence of the First Class fare.

No, it wouldn't. FC has not been booked on the route for as long as I've been aware of it, as far as I know.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am looking at a 1987 timetable, table 108 shows Leeds-Blackpool trains roughly every 2 hours, operated by Sprinters (I believe this may have included SuperSprinters too). No First Class accomodation advertised.

 

[D6700]

FC has not been booked on the route for as long as I've been aware of it, as far as I know.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am looking at a 1987 timetable, table 108 shows Leeds-Blackpool trains roughly every 2 hours, operated by Sprinters (I believe this may have included SuperSprinters too). No First Class accomodation advertised.

You're going too far back! The 158's hadn't even been built at that time, never mind refurbished and First Class added.

York to Blackpool was originally launched as the Roses Link (or something similar) with WYPTE 155/3's, which were only built in 1988. Since then, there have been a number of changes to the route...

 

[yorkie]

Yes I know 1987 is too far back for 158s, but I can demonstrate FC did not exist in 1987. I do not have a timetable for when Class 158s were introduced (which I would estimate to be around 1991 as this is when 158s took over the 'main' Trans Pennine route) however I do not think they had First Class. It is possible FC was added for a few years and then removed.

If First Class did exist for the entire route then I would expect the FC fare at that time to have been more significantly higher than the Standard Fare, so I do not think that the suggestion that the existence of the FC fare is down to FC accomodation being available. I believe the fare is intended for use in FC between York & Leeds (but can be used to Bradford/Halifax theoretically, if timings suited!) and that is why it is only a small amount more.

 

[radamfi]

Quick search on uk.railway shows Northern Spirit introduced 'Premier Class' from 8 February 1999 on most Transpennine routes. Apparently, the Burnley route wasn't upgraded until later that year.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk...first+class+group:uk.railway#61b2809331923bb2

As of last Monday (8 Feb), Transpennine Premier class is available on
many Northern Spirit services (routes from Liverpool and Manchester to
Cleethorpes, Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, via
Sheffield, Leeds, York).

This is available in the 16 "comfy chairs" at one end of refurbished
158 units (may be two ends of 3 car sets, I haven't checked yet).
These areas of the train have been specially marked internally, but
not externally, so you still have to guess which end of the train will
have Premier class (when will they go back to painting yellow stripes
for first class?).

The style of these new seats (padded armrests, antimacassars, table
lights, power points for laptops etc) has been discussed before. Here
are the financial details, copied from the NS leaflet:

"From Monday February 8 Transpennine Premier will be available on a
substantial number of trains. It can be enjoyed by any ticket holder
on the payment of a modest supplement. This will be collected at your
seat by the Conductor when you present your travel ticket.

"The amount will depend on the number of zones in which you travel
(see map below). Customers travelling within one zone will pay a
supplement of GBP3 per journey (eg Scarborough to York). Customers
whose journey takes them into a second zone wil pay GBP 6 per journey
(eg Scarborough to Huddersfield). Customers whose journey takes them
into a third zone will pay GBP 9 per journey (eg Scarborough to
Liverpool).
"Holders of Season Tickets, MetroCards and other multiple journey
tickets which are valid for a week or longer can pre-purchase books of
12 Transpennine Premier supplement tickets at Ticket Offices and
Travel Centres for only GBP 12. Each ticket is valid for any length of
journey.
"First Class and Executive ticket holders travel Transpennine Premier
at no extra charge."

The map shows the routes mentioned earlier (basically South
Transpennine and North Transpennine) running through three concentric
circles. Leeds is at the centre. York, Selby and Huddersfield are the
boundaries of the first ring, Northallerton, Scarborough, Hull,
Sheffield and Manchester are the boundaries of the second ring,
everywhere else (inlcuding Manchester Airport) is in the third circle.
By my reckoning, that makes the supplement for Manchester-Leeds to be
GBP 6 while Manchester-Sheffield is only GBP 3, which is probably
about right.

I tried the new service, sort of, on a Leeds-Burnley-Blackpool train
last week. Didn't have to pay anything extra because that route is not
part of the network yet - I just got lucky. But it will be added to
the Premier network later this year as more sets are refurbished.

Question: will Northern Spirit now be able to claim a bigger share of
ticket sales between, say, York and Newcastle, on the grounds that
they now offer something to holders of First Class tickets? And if you
had a First Class ticket, would you notice the difference between
(say), First Class on GNER and Premier Class on Northern Spirit? Would
you think it value for money?

A later message from 2000 showed that it could be much cheaper to buy a proper First Class ticket than getting an upgrade on the train:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk...first+class+group:uk.railway#f4181b6db610e6d3

Just a reminder really that anyone who needs to buy a single ticket,
rather than a return, on Northern Spirit's TransPenninExpress services
should seriously consider a first class ticket. It's a fluke of the
way that NS concoct their new first class fares, because I think they
basically take the standard Saver fare and add two thirds (or
something), but this means that the difference between standard single
and first class single is next to nowt - on some fares.

Latest to catch my eye is Manchester-York - GBP 14.50 standard, GBP
14.80 first class. A lot, lot cheaper than paying the on-train
supplement of 6 pounds. And the difference is even more marked when
you use a Railcard.

 

[yorkie]

Hmm.. I am unsure that it was added. The post says it was planned to be, but it doesn't confirm that it was. Still inconclusive I think!

 

[D6700]

Yes I know 1987 is too far back for 158s, but I can demonstrate FC did not exist in 1987. I do not have a timetable for when Class 158s were introduced (which I would estimate to be around 1991 as this is when 158s took over the 'main' Trans Pennine route) however I do not think they had First Class. It is possible FC was added for a few years and then removed.

If First Class did exist for the entire route then I would expect the FC fare at that time to have been more significantly higher than the Standard Fare, so I do not think that the suggestion that the existence of the FC fare is down to FC accomodation being available. I believe the fare is intended for use in FC between York & Leeds (but can be used to Bradford/Halifax theoretically, if timings suited!) and that is why it is only a small amount more.

It doesn't matter what was the case in 1987, as Northern Spirit brought in First Class at a much later date (as confirmed by radamfi's delving into the uk.railway archives). Additionally, in 1987, it would have been possible to travel First Class between York and Leeds, for a standard class train forward, just like today.

The 158's on Trans Pennine routes didn't have any First Class when they were introduced. They did, though, have a terrible smoking section in half of one coach, which was not practically segregated from the rest of the coach. At the time 158's were introduced on the main Trans Pennine route, the York to Blackpool service was in the hands of 155/3's, which have never had First Class - nor decent Standard Class, in my opinion!

As has been stated, First Class was added by Northern Spirit. It covered half a coach in three car sets and about a quarter to a third of a coach in two car sets.

Whilst it may be the case that the fare is relatively new and as you suggest, a correct check would be to look at the First Class fares from that era (2000/2001), and how they related to the standard class fares. The uk.railway post from 2000 demonstrates that very small fare differences did exist, so it is quite possible that this is indeed a legacy, especially since the route went back to standard class only on through trains.

I'm not professing to know the reason for this fare, but some of the "facts" posted in this thread have been incorrect and some of the logic used has been slightly misguided. I don't mean that in a nasty way, before anyone takes offence!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm.. I am unsure that it was added. The post says it was planned to be, but it doesn't confirm that it was. Still inconclusive I think!

Oh, please! That's a bit desperate

 

[yorkie]

Well if you remember it being added, I'll take your word for it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There certainly does seem to be a few others out there who think it didn't though

See this topic from 2004.

This is true even on lines that have a mix of Standard only trains and
those carrying First Class, such as Scarborough to York, where it is
not uncommon to have a TPX unit with FC running a Blackpool North
service, which is Std only.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And this from 2002

Under Arriva Train Northern, it is
now called "First Class" which is applicable to Transpennine trains through
Manchester (subject to availability of accommodation) but not the Blackpool
route.

So there is definitely confusion about whether or not FC was booked for this route. I have no doubt that trains with FC compartment worked the route, but I thought that they were declassified, and it seems others did too.

 

[John @ home]

Returning to the issue of current Preston - York fares, I agree the extra £1.50 single is reasonable given the First Class availability Halifax - Bradford Int; Bradford FS - Leeds and Leeds - York.

Preston - York route Burnley
SDS 22.90
FDS 24.40

But the extra £22.40 return is extortionate!

Preston - York route Burnley
SOR 26.40

There are no First Class return fares route Burnley. Two FDS at £24.40 each must be issued, a total of £48.80. That's still cheaper than the £77.60 FOR route Any Permitted.

 

[premier01]

I agree-there should be an FDR or FOR for an extra £3 to £5-can't really see anyone utilising the opttion though unless for a leisure trip where time was no issue and perhaps breaking the journey at Bradford or Leeds.

 

[clagmonster]

John, surely the thing to do for a first class return would be to buy a SOR then excess each portion individually. I believe that for a first class excess on one portion of a return, the excess is the difference between the first and second class singles, so would be £1.50 in each direction.

 

[premier01]

I believe that for a first class excess on one portion of a return, the excess is the difference between the first and second class singles, so would be £1.50 in each direction.

It is!!

Please would someone please explain this to ticket staff at Preston, Leeds, York Stations!!