Is the class 455 really life expired?

[WarrenTManager]

Only if the same doesn't happen with all ROSCOs - if all the ROSCOs perceive a risk of getting stung then they could all increase charges. UK train leasing doesn't have that many players, and continuing availability of cheap credit also isn't a given.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2021 ==



40 million? I doubt it.

Retractioning saved the need for a depot for the 707s. Feltham, pretty much berthing cost £60 million so I would say on that basis it has.

 

[DB]

Retractioning saved the need for a depot for the 707s. Feltham, pretty much berthing cost £60 million so I would say on that basis it has.

But that's operator savings. Whether the ROSCO made a loss or not is going to depend on how many years they have spread the cost over in terms of lease charges.

 

[BayPaul]

But that's operator savings. Whether the ROSCO made a loss or not is going to depend on how many years they have spread the cost over in terms of lease charges.

Presumably they were sensible and adjusted charges to write the cost off over the remaining guaranteed period of the lease with SWT, rather than any speculative future period with SWR. If they took a business risk not to do that then that's their problem, frankly!

 

[Journeyman]

Presumably they were sensible and adjusted charges to write the cost off over the remaining guaranteed period of the lease with SWT, rather than any speculative future period with SWR. If they took a business risk not to do that then that's their problem, frankly!

Exactly. I'm not sure why so many people are worried about this. It seems from figures posted here they've done fine anyway.

 

[DB]

Exactly. I'm not sure why so many people are worried about this. It seems from figures posted here they've done fine anyway.

No figures have been posted for this so far as I'm aware, and probbaly won't be - lease charges are likely to be commercially confidential.

 

[Fincra5]

Apart from going from 3 and 6 coaches to 4 and 8 car coaches but that depends on platforms being capable of taking 8 coaches as I believe and I await to be corrected but some stations are limited in the length of trains that can call at those stations?

A 4 car will fit into anything a solo 313 runs on...

However a 455 isn’t, much of an upgrade for passengers, so it’s a non-starter.

 

[Railengineer]

The owner won't make a loss, the 455 re-traction project was costed for 7 years operation. Given the time it will take to get the replacements agreed and operating fully it looks like the 7 year target will easily be met.
Operationally the traction conversion has reduced the cost of maintaining traction and braking equipment such as heavy-duty switching contacts and brake pads.
These units also had underframe anti-corrosion treatment by Porterbrook during overhaul about Ashford 15 years ago or so, this is likely why they do not seem to be corroding as badly as other comparable vehicles.
These units are much better for the environment than the Southern version.

 

[physics34]

The owner won't make a loss, the 455 re-traction project was costed for 7 years operation. Given the time it will take to get the replacements agreed and operating fully it looks like the 7 year target will easily be met.
Operationally the traction conversion has reduced the cost of maintaining traction and braking equipment such as heavy-duty switching contacts and brake pads.
These units also had underframe anti-corrosion treatment by Porterbrook during overhaul about Ashford 15 years ago or so, this is likely why they do not seem to be corroding as badly as other comparable vehicles.
These units are much better for the environment than the Southern version.

The was a little insider rumour that theyll go to southern for a couple of years but i guess we'll have to see what happens when the 701s become commonplace

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I really like the SWR 455s it would be a shame to get rid of them after all the work done to modernise them, my girlfriend thought it was a new train when she got on with me at Waterloo.

 

[KC1]

There is absolutely no comparison between the Southern units and the SWR ones. Put it this way, I’d rather wait 20 minutes and get a 377 than a 455 on Southern but I would happily board a SWR 455 because of a) comfort, b) ambience and c) airline style seats. Southern seemed to go down the cheap route years ago with the refurbs but SWT (the franchisees at the time) put in so much effort to make them look and feel more like ‘new’ trains in terms and layout and overall comfort.

Lets hope that if Southern do get SWR 455s for a period that don’t ruin the existing layout.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There is absolutely no comparison between the Southern units and the SWR ones. Put it this way, I’d rather wait 20 minutes and get a 377 than a 455 on Southern but I would happily board a SWR 455 because of a) comfort, b) ambience and c) airline style seats. Southern seemed to go down the cheap route years ago with the refurbs but SWT (the franchisees at the time) put in so much effort to make them look and feel more like ‘new’ trains in terms and layout and overall comfort.

Lets hope that if Southern do get SWR 455s for a period that don’t ruin the existing layout.

Conversely, as a regular Southern Region/Swt/Swr commuter since 1983, I am a not particularly lanky 5'9" but could never get comfortable in the airline seats, and also find the high seat backs claustrophobic. The 23% reduction in seating capacity was also less than welcome (the recent addition of 456s to make 10 car trains merely replaced the missing seats) and there was inadequate room for the extra standees as the aisles are not wide enough to stand two abreast. The old low-back seats were cleverly designed so that standees could "perch" on the seat ends, but the new seats don't have that facility. In comparison to SWT's gaudy colour scheme, Southern's may seem dowdy to some but I prefer to call it "restful".

Don't forget that some class 455/7 vehicles are well over 40 years old.

But I'd agree the units are quite robust - apart from the carriage in 5912 withdrawn after the door trials (because a suitable replacement was available, from one of the class 210 prototypes, which didn't need modification back to standard condition) the only write off to date is one car from 5913 - for some reason the design did not take into account the possibility of being bombed by an 18ton lorry. Nevertheless they were able to salvage much of the traction equipment and running gear for use in another donor vehicle from the class 210 project.

 

[GEC465]

In a logical sense I'd see southern getting 455/8s for a while

 

[Meerkat]

Presumably it wouldn’t cost that much to replace the Southern 455s with the SWR ones?
The Southern ROSCO just needs to offer slightly more than scrap value, and they will get roughly the same scrap value for each of their 455s they replace. Plus re-livery, training on AC motors etc.
Just depends whether the better condition and lower maintenance costs are worth it for however long it takes to replace them on Southern

 

[py_megapixel]

Presumably it wouldn’t cost that much to replace the Southern 455s with the SWR ones?
The Southern ROSCO just needs to offer slightly more than scrap value, and they will get roughly the same scrap value for each of their 455s they replace. Plus re-livery, training on AC motors etc.
Just depends whether the better condition and lower maintenance costs are worth it for however long it takes to replace them on Southern

I don't believe SW 455s have cab air conditioning, and when that kind of thing is fitted it's usually because doing so is in an agreement between the TOC in question (Southern in this case) and the Unions. I imagine such an agreement would be very difficult to reverse, meaning that if the units were swapped cab AC would have to fitted to the "new" ones, which would probably work out quite expensive.

 

[AJD]

They had cab air conditioning when I used to drive them and I transferred out of SW about 4 years ago. Mind you it only worked if you had a key on, so the poor guard working from the middle/back cab couldn't benefit from it. Unless of course you're referring exclusively to the Southern units, in which case I have no idea

 

[Aictos]

They had cab air conditioning when I used to drive them and I transferred out of SW about 4 years ago. Mind you it only worked if you had a key on, so the poor guard working from the middle/back cab couldn't benefit from it. Unless of course you're referring exclusively to the Southern units, in which case I have no idea

The Southern ones have air conditioning in both cabs so it's possible to have both a guard and a driver benefit from it in different cabs of course.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

To answer the thread question NO the SWR ones aren't life expired but what they are along with all other builds from the 80's with hopper windows is utterly unsuitable when its hot. At least on a slam door stock there was no shortage of ventilation available although plenty of arguments about opening the windows from fellow passengers.

 

[Davester50]

To answer the thread question NO the SWR ones aren't life expired but what they are along with all other builds from the 80's with hopper windows is utterly unsuitable when its hot. At least on a slam door stock there was no shortage of ventilation available although plenty of arguments about opening the windows from fellow passengers.

A good question is, is this reason enough to spend to replace them, from what is an ever decreasing pot of money?

 

[py_megapixel]

A good question is, is this reason enough to spend to replace them, from what is an ever decreasing pot of money?

The money had already been spent well before the huge hit from Covid.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The money had already been spent well before the huge hit from Covid.

Yes but only by the leasing company. Had the operator had to raise the capital itself and own them outright its doubtful the economics would have passed the test. What we now have is the farepayer/taxpayer on the hook for decades to pay the guaranteed leasing charges.

 

[gallafent]

To answer the thread question NO the SWR ones aren't life expired but what they are along with all other builds from the 80's with hopper windows is utterly unsuitable when its hot.

… though as proven by Chiltern with their (admittedly early '90s, but same argument applies) class 165s, and some other stock since then (closest to 455 being the Renatus 321s I guess, originally built in the late '80s, same basic doors-at-thirds mk3-based EMU), you can replace the hopper windows with nice double-glazed single panels and add air cooling. The improvement in internal ambience is absolutely massive, they feel like a completely different train to the GWR ones with their original hopper windows and no air cooling …

Whether that's worth doing depends on how long they are expected to last (in other words, whether they're “life-expired” or not) from other perspectives than being cool enough in the summer, I guess!

 

[Davester50]

The money had already been spent well before the huge hit from Covid.

I suppose that's what the new trains being delivered are, so fair point.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

… though as proven by Chiltern with their (admittedly early '90s, but same argument applies) class 165s, and some other stock since then (closest to 455 being the Renatus 321s I guess, originally built in the late '80s, same basic doors-at-thirds mk3-based EMU), you can replace the hopper windows with nice double-glazed single panels and add air cooling. The improvement in internal ambience is absolutely massive, they feel like a completely different train to the GWR ones with their original hopper windows and no air cooling …

Whether that's worth doing depends on how long they are expected to last (in other words, whether they're “life-expired” or not) from other perspectives than being cool enough in the summer, I guess!

The Renatus is a reasonable refurb and had interest rates not collapsed to a level that makes interest element in overall cost of new train ownership very low now im sure more of the fleet would have been converted.

 

[Helvellyn]

If Southern were to take the SWR 455s then the 455/8s and 455/9s would be a good replacement for the Southern 455/8s (take the best 46 out of 48 units), whilst the best 20 or so 455/7s could be reduced to 3-cars to replace the 313s on the Coastway.

It would be a good interim solution until it seen how commuting patterns look in the next year or so and a more sustainable plan can be looked at to replace the remaining BR era stock across the three South of the River TOCs.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If Southern were to take the SWR 455s then the 455/8s and 455/9s would be a good replacement for the Southern 455/8s (take the best 46 out of 48 units), whilst the best 20 or so 455/7s could be reduced to 3-cars to replace the 313s on the Coastway.

It would be a good interim solution until it seen how commuting patterns look in the next year or so and a more sustainable plan can be looked at to replace the remaining BR era stock across the three South of the River TOCs.

SWR have more 455's than Southern so can cover off 455/8 diagrams and unlock some 377's off the metro to cover 313's on the South Coast would be most sensible redeployment even if its only for 5 years as they will be cheaper to maintain.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If Southern were to take the SWR 455s then the 455/8s and 455/9s would be a good replacement for the Southern 455/8s (take the best 46 out of 48 units),

Two of the 455/9s (5912 and 5913) are non-standard, each with an ex-class 210 cars so might be chosen to be the exceptions. Or, given their age, it might be prudent to take all 48 to give more maintenance cover and/or a source of spares.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If Southern were to take the SWR 455s then the 455/8s and 455/9s would be a good replacement for the Southern 455/8s (take the best 46 out of 48 units), whilst the best 20 or so 455/7s could be reduced to 3-cars to replace the 313s on the Coastway.

It would be a good interim solution until it seen how commuting patterns look in the next year or so and a more sustainable plan can be looked at to replace the remaining BR era stock across the three South of the River TOCs.

One problem with that /7 plan, you'd be removing the aluminium bodied 508 trailer which would cope better with the salty environment of the Coastway. I've also heard that the 508 cars are generally in better condition than the rest, in part due to not rusting like the steel Mk3-based vehicles. And that's based on conditions of South West London, where sea spray is unsurprisingly rare.
I don't think 455s would really offer enough of an improvement over 313s to be worth the costs of changing over anyway.

 

[43096]

One problem with that /7 plan, you'd be removing the aluminium bodied 508 trailer which would cope better with the salty environment of the Coastway. I've also heard that the 508 cars are generally in better condition than the rest, in part due to not rusting like the steel Mk3-based vehicles. And that's based on conditions of South West London, where sea spray is unsurprisingly rare.

But if you want 3-car sets, the ex-508 trailer thing is utterly irrelevant as it is the only vehicle that you can remove!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How much work would it be to reduce the 455/7's to 3-car? Is it really that simple to just take out a carriage and rejoin the internal wires? If more work is required, along with conductor retraining, would it really be worth it?

 

[Journeyman]

How much work would it be to reduce the 455/7's to 3-car? Is it really that simple to just take out a carriage and rejoin the internal wires? If more work is required, along with conductor retraining, would it really be worth it?

455s to the coastal routes would be a bad move. A major criticism of the 313s is their use on quite long runs without toilets, and that needs to be resolved. The obvious answer is to sort out a common metro fleet to replace the Southern 455s and cascade 377s back to the coast.