Ridiculous fares on GWR

[kingston]

The two of us make two very similar leisure journeys from London throughout the year, booked 7-10 days in advance, no need for flexible tickets - and yet the cost of travelling by GWR is astronomical both compared to the other similar route and to other transport options - £170 vs £40!

To Taunton train prices are expensive in standard, even moreso in first class. For years I was put off coaches being a bit of a snob and because it takes a little longer, but I was pleasantly surprised when switching from an HST. I found it just as comfortable, the route has more reliable mobile/Wi-Fi connectivity to stay connected and do work, offers dimmed lighting if I want to sleep/enjoy a film and is usually less busy and more chance of a free seat. So much so on a quiet late night service I wouldn't pay more than £10 premium to take the train. This may have improved a little with the IEP trains but not enough to part with much cold hard cash.

To Norwich we can very reliably (even a few days before) get advance standard and first tickets at low prices, the product was perfectly fine with the legacy mark 3 coaches and even better now with all-new trains.

The result is GWR rarely receive any cash, we travel less frequently and almost always by National Express. Comparatively we travel two or three times as often with Greater Anglia regularly upgrading to first. These are undiscounted prices but even with our Two Together railcard it doesn't tip the balance to GWR. Split Tickets help slightly on a flexible basis but significantly restrict the choice of available trains (split at Pewsey) and increases the journey time a little.

I assume the answer is protecting seats for longer distance travellers into Devon and Cornwall and there's enough demand to continue gouging customers, but it still gives a bad impression of GWR!


London Paddington to Taunton
~140 miles each-way

Train: £171.60 | 1hr 40m (Super Off-Peak Return by GWR)
Coach: £49.60 | 3hr 35m (National Express return)
Car: £35.00 | 3hr 15m (rough estimate)

London Liverpool Street to Norwich
~120 miles each-way

Train: £40.00 | 1hr 50m (2x Advance singles by Greater Anglia)
Coach: £40.00 | 2hr 45m (National Express return)
Car: £30.00 | 2hr 45m (rough estimate)

 

[_toommm_]

When is it you’re due to travel? It may be that advance tickets have been on sale for a while and sold out. Conversely, it may be that they haven’t even been released yet.

 

[JonathanH]

My guess is that Greater Anglia haven't yet had the message from the DfT that the lowest level of Advance fares needs to be around £25 for journeys of 120 miles that seems to have got to the other operators. The cheap AP fares on services to Norwich are great but seemingly inconsistent with other routes now (and there are reports of the trains getting busier).

 

[ABB125]

My guess is that Greater Anglia haven't yet had the message from the DfT that the lowest level of Advance fares needs to be around £25 for journeys of 120 miles that seems to have got to the other operators. The cheap AP fares on services to Norwich are great but seemingly inconsistent with other routes now (and there are reports of the trains getting busier).

Apart from it being a revenue grab, what's the point of an arbitrary minimum like this? (Plus, that sounds rather like mileage-based fares to me!)

 

[JonathanH]

Apart from it being a revenue grab, what's the point of an arbitrary minimum like this? (Plus, that sounds rather like mileage-based fares to me!)

I'm not suggesting it is a good idea - I'm just observing that Greater Anglia now seem to be offering fares which are out of line with those on the other routes from London.

Swindon is only 77 miles from London and the cheapest advance fare for Saturday is £25.60. Norwich can still be reached at certain times for £10.

I suggest that people make the most of cheap advance fares whilst they are available because the movement seems to be very much away from them as noted in this thread.

 

[ABB125]

Swindon is only 77 miles from London and the cheapest advance fare for Saturday is £25.60. Norwich can still be reached at certain times for £10.

A few years ago, the cheapest advance fare to London from stations between Worcester and Moreton in Marsh on the Cotswold line (and possibly outwith this range as well; I've never had cause to check!) was £6. Throw in a family Railcard, and you could have a day out in London for an adult and three children for the absolute bargain price of £14.80 - the first train in the morning upon which the fare tier appeared arrived in Paddington a bit before 1000.
Now, the cheapest advance tier appears to be £15 (though this is an "advance promo", whatever one of those is!).

I suggest that people make the most of cheap advance fares whilst they are available because the movement seems to be very much away from them as noted in this thread.

Believe me, I will! I recently came across some ridiculously low-price (or, depending on your viewpoint, reasonably-priced) advances for certain flows which I won't mention here. Suffice to say that I can get approaching 1300 miles of travel for just over £50 (with Railcard).

 

[JonathanH]

Now, the cheapest advance tier appears to be £15 (though this is an "advance promo", whatever one of those is!).

I think that can be disregarded as the cheapest fare since it would only be available when they have a 'sale'. £17.80 appears to now be the cheapest proper advance fare from those stations on the Cotswold line.

 

[ABB125]

I think that can be disregarded as the cheapest fare since it would only be available when they have a 'sale'. £17.80 appears to now be the cheapest proper advance fare from those stations on the Cotswold line.

So effectively the cost of going to London has tripled.
And, at the moment, GWR don't appear to be selling any London advances* (at least, not for the journeys I've looked at), resulting in even more expensive flexible tickets being requirements. To illustrate the point, my mum and older brother are going to visit the gardens at Buckingham palace in a few Sundays' time. This would cost them over £80 by train (including the fact that my brother has a Railcard), or about £55 (plus parking) if they drive to Oxford/Didcot Parkway. This really isn't the way to encourage people to travel by train!

*admittedly this may be partly due to the current IET problems reducing the number of seats

 

[kingston]

When is it you’re due to travel? It may be that advance tickets have been on sale for a while and sold out. Conversely, it may be that they haven’t even been released yet.

Next week on a weekday, always 7-10 day advance purchase. Advance fares are available for around a quid less than the cheapest flexible ticket which is quite offensive and borderline fraudulent given how many people will fall into that trap!

 

[Haywain]

Next week on a weekday, always 7-10 day advance purchase. Advance fares are available for around a quid less than the cheapest flexible ticket which is quite offensive and borderline fraudulent given how many people will fall into that trap!

You may have noticed that GWR have had a few problems recently meaning a lot of trains are out of service. This limits capacity and may well be causing limits to the availability of cheaper tickets.

 

[JonathanH]

You may have noticed that GWR have had a few problems recently meaning a lot of trains are out of service. This limits capacity and may well be causing limits to the availability of cheaper tickets.

It isn't just that though - the prices for the advance fare tiers on GWR have been pushed up quite a bit at the May fares round.

Next week on a weekday, always 7-10 day advance purchase. Advance fares are available for around a quid less than the cheapest flexible ticket which is quite offensive and borderline fraudulent given how many people will fall into that trap!

Not sure about that being borderline fraudulent - how much differential should there be between the walk up fares and the advance fare tier which is slightly cheaper? Would it be more offensive if the advance fares sold out at the tier below? If £1 is offensive, is £2 not?

 

[infobleep]

As someone else once wrote on this forum, I forget who, there will always be winners and losers.

I can now buy many more advanced purchase tickets from Guildford to Oxford and this has cut the cost of travelling between both places, as well as being able to travel earlier in the morning.

Previously one could only do this if Cross Country Trains happened to be running a service that stopped at Guildford. Your best chance of this was during engineering works and if the diversion was only one day but you were away for two days, no saving

In fact last week I could have laid just £10 to get to Oxford and back. The discounted third off, off-peak return fare from Guildford to Oxford is £13.70

As it is I bought a combination of tickets that cost me £12.95 but allowed me to travel earlier in the morning, the cheapest ticket of the lot and return on the last set of connecting services, more expensive.

An anytime day return is £27.20 so one could save £17.20.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I must admit to not having travelled by train for quite some time. They are pricing themselves out of the market. I've got an electric car and it costs pence to charge it overnight at home and gives around 200 miles on a full charge. Yes, there's the initial investment, but evenso the price of rail tickets is too high to tempt me back

 

[JonathanH]

They are pricing themselves out of the market.

It would be interesting to know whether they actually are pricing themselves out of the market or whether the trains are actually busy at the relevant times.

I quite agree that they may be pricing themselves out of an individual's market but that is different from the market.

 

[Envoy]

Assuming no Covid restrictions, if they have plenty of empty seats, then that surely means lost potential revenue? A bit like hotels who could fill rooms with lower prices but choose to keep prices high and end up with empty beds & lost chances to make money.

 

[miami]

Assuming no Covid restrictions, if they have plenty of empty seats, then that surely means lost potential revenue? A bit like hotels who could fill rooms with lower prices but choose to keep prices high and end up with empty beds & lost chances to make money.

Its better from a revenue perspective to sell 10 tickets for £150 than 100 tickets for £10

 

[nw1]

£171.60 super off peak return does seem eye-wateringly expensive for London to Taunton; I'm sure last time I did Southampton to Windermere, a much longer journey (early last year) the price was in that kind of order for a walk-up ticket. And for that price I could use peak trains out of Euston as the restrictions were waived for that particular ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

£171.60 super off peak return does seem eye-wateringly expensive for London to Taunton; I'm sure last time I did Southampton to Windermere, a much longer journey, the price was in that kind of order for a walk-up ticket.

£171.60 is the super off-peak return fare for two people from London to Taunton. Not defending that but the off-peak return fares for one person from Southampton to Windermere are about £150 return.

 

[nw1]

£171.60 is the super off-peak fare for two people from London to Taunton. Not defending that but the off-peak fares for one person from Southampton to Windermere are about £150 return.

Ah right, sorry, my bad. I missed the "two people"! Sorry!
Yes, half that is much more in line with what I would have expected for that journey.

 

[miami]

57p per mile, way more than the cost of a car.

 

[30907]

I'm not suggesting it is a good idea - I'm just observing that Greater Anglia now seem to be offering fares which are out of line with those on the other routes from London.

My first thought was that Norwich benefits from being in the former NSE area, but on closer inspection that isn't a major factor.

Hamworthy Offpeak Return is £68.30 for 116 miles compared with the Norwich fare for 115 miles, so that's roughly 10% difference. Taunton at £85 for 140-odd miles is only a couple of £ more than the SWT fares for Axminster and Weymouth. And much the same as the £87 LNER fare to Retford for the same distance.

So while Norwich is cheap (as are West Coast Offpeaks, for historic reasons), Taunton isn't particularly out of line.
So you could reasonably argue that regulated Offpeak fares are too high BTW , if you want to rephrase it.

The Advance ticket prices are a different matter - GW is offering virtually no Advance discount to anywhere on the West Country route, which - given that holiday accommodation in the SW is almost unobtainable this summer - suggests they have no need to.

57p per mile, way more than the cost of a car.

For 2, without Railcard discount which brings it down to 38p or so.

 

[6Gman]

57p per mile, way more than the cost of a car.

HMRC allows 45p per mile as the rate for car travel (for tax purposes) so hardly "way more".

(And, yes, two people travelling together; marginal petrol costs etc etc)

 

[miami]

HMRC allows 45p per mile as the rate for car travel (for tax purposes) so hardly "way more".

12p per mile more. Yes that's way more - £35 return. And over 10,000 miles they only pay 25p per mile (i.e. the marginal cost of the average car owner), which makes the train £100 more than a realistic price of a car.

The question is why are trains to painfully inefficent? A coach about £80 return for 2 people (or less).

 

[johncrossley]

My first thought was that Norwich benefits from being in the former NSE area, but on closer inspection that isn't a major factor.

The Gold card was extended to Norwich a few years ago, however the Network Railcard area (and therefore the former NSE area) only extends as far as Manningtree. NSE ran trains to Ipswich, but that was an Intercity station.

 

[mikeg]

If two people are going off peak at that price, wouldn't it make sense to get a two together Railcard for the journey, assuming they are not Railcard holders already?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Not sure if this is more widespread or a local thing, but I’ve noticed advance fares for GWR between South Hampshire stations served by GWR (on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route) and Cardiff have disappeared from the fares database recently. Has this been the case anywhere else?

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure if this is more widespread or a local thing, but I’ve noticed advance fares for GWR between South Hampshire stations served by GWR (on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route) and Cardiff have disappeared from the fares database recently. Has this been the case anywhere else?

Yes, and £23.10 for the cheapest tier of advance fares from Portsmouth to Bristol Temple Meads is somewhat more than it used to be. There are no less than eight tiers of advance fares between £30 and £34 between Portsmouth and Bristol Temple Meads (and that is just the GWR only ones).

Are there some experiments going on with setting GWR advance fares at higher rates?

Just to illustrate what appears to be going on. On 1 May, I helped someone with advance fares from Brighton to Redruth.

I can get the fare from Brighton to Redruth one way on 19 June down to £25 single (albeit on slow trains via Bristol) and on 26 June to £28.50 (via Bristol and London). Not sure you are going to do better than £53.50 return (or £49.80 in the last bit of this message).

19 June - 0900 - 1812
Brighton to Salisbury £4.40 single (0900 from Brighton)
Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads £5.45 single (1113 from Salisbury (same train))
Bristol Temple Meads to Redruth £15.15 single (1356 from Bristol Temple Meads)

Brighton 0900
Bristol Temple Meads 1230

Bristol Temple Meads 1356
Redruth 1812

26 June - 0843 - 1657 (also possible 1143 - 2027, 1516 - 2327, 1616 - 0056)
Redruth to Bristol Temple Meads £15.15 single (0843 from Redruth) (1316)
Bristol Temple Meads to Brighton £13.35 single (1330 or 1400 from Bristol Temple Meads)

Redruth 0843
Taunton 1142

Taunton 1218
Bristol Temple Meads 1316

Bristol Temple Meads 1330
London Paddington 1507

Underground

London Victoria 1559
Brighton 1657

Actually, looking later in the day, it is also possible to do (1820 - 0228) for £24.80, so that is under £50 return.

Redruth to Bristol Temple Meads £8.15 (1820 from Redruth)
Bristol Temple Meads to Brighton £16.65 (2200 from Bristol Temple Meads (same train))

Redruth 1820
London Paddington 2341

Underground

Blackfriars 0102
Brighton 0228

If I look at BRFares now, the cheapest tiers for each of these fares (with 26-30 railcard discount has increased as follows:

Brighton to Salisbury (was £4.40, now £24.25)
Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads (was £5.45, now £8.25)
Bristol Temple Meads to Redruth (was £15.15, now £24.90)

Redruth to Bristol Temple Meads (was £8.15, now £24.90)
Bristol Temple Meads to Brighton via London (was £16.65, now £16.30)

A bit of a mixed bag, but some of this is making XC look cheap, especially given these are with a railcard.

Explain this to me:

An anytime day single from Brighton to Salisbury is £29.20 (route via Barnham) valid on all trains. There is an off-peak day single which is £28.70.

The cheapest 'GWR only' advance fare is now £36.80 and if you want an advance fare for the 0859 on Monday it is £49.10.

What is going on?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Its better from a revenue perspective to sell 10 tickets for £150 than 100 tickets for £10

Why? The more people you can get to travel, the more people who are more likely to return and travel again. The 99 people priced off once are unlikely to bother with trains again.

 

[JonathanH]

Why? The more people you can get to travel, the more people who are more likely to return and travel again. The 99 people priced off once are unlikely to bother with trains again.

The more each user pays, the less capacity that needs to be provided, reducing costs. (Not that I am condoning some of the fare changes noted in this thread.)

 

[Deafdoggie]

The more each user pays, the less capacity that needs to be provided, reducing costs.

But that's not a sustainable business model