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Correct on both points. Peak travel, obviously, the worst time for 'too busy'. Pleas over the years for people to stagger peak travel have fallen on deaf ears - on the railway this concept is hard to do as there are scheduled services. If you drive you can choose, perhaps, a more convenient time/route.
As safeguarded retired staff I am not entitled to grumble, but.... what irks me is the number of 'reserved' seats which are not used. A few weeks ago I was coming back from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading on the 1A18 (11.30 to Paddington) - a block of around 20 seats in coach A were shown as reserved from Bristol to Paddington. Nobody at all turned up - well, other than me, who had free range over pointless reservations once the train started. Ditto assorted instances out of Paddington/Reading heading west. We have the lights now, but it was much the same with HSTs.
I am interested to see what happens with regard to HS2 with CR - high speed, 300 kph+ - will it be CR like Eurostar, TGV,AVE?
Correct on both points. Peak travel, obviously, the worst time for 'too busy'. Pleas over the years for people to stagger peak travel have fallen on deaf ears - on the railway this concept is hard to do as there are scheduled services. If you drive you can choose, perhaps, a more convenient time/route.
As safeguarded retired staff I am not entitled to grumble, but.... what irks me is the number of 'reserved' seats which are not used. A few weeks ago I was coming back from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading on the 1A18 (11.30 to Paddington) - a block of around 20 seats in coach A were shown as reserved from Bristol to Paddington. Nobody at all turned up - well, other than me, who had free range over pointless reservations once the train started. Ditto assorted instances out of Paddington/Reading heading west. We have the lights now, but it was much the same with HSTs.
It is planned to be, yes, I believe. I'm fairly sure someone posted here that the evacuation plans for the tunnel section (which because it's so long acts a bit like the Channel Tunnel in this regard) are based around not carrying more than a full seated load, same with the OOC dwells. That said I've seen the "train spec" and it does seem to cater for standing loads, perhaps in exceptional disruption.
This happens because there's no way to cancel a reservation or change it once made.
It is planned to be, yes, I believe. I'm fairly sure someone posted here that the evacuation plans for the tunnel section (which because it's so long acts a bit like the Channel Tunnel in this regard) are based around not carrying more than a full seated load, same with the OOC dwells. That said I've seen the "train spec" and it does seem to cater for standing loads, perhaps in exceptional disruption.
Would 'they' have cancelled if they could? Who knows. Unlikely, but possible.
Some years ago I was on a TGV (double Reseau set) and the rear set was out of use. Lucky me had a reservation in said set - I managed a seat from Avignon Centre to Lyon PD in the front set, but gave it up to the rightful owners and carried on to Lille Europe, just another three hours, standing in a vestibule with about ten others. Not fun, but not that bad (!!!). I would have to check my notes, but it may well have been when the TGVs had a smoking coach - I would certainly have remembered that!
While CR can be done in the bodged manner that it has been quickly done by LNER, most likely you would also move to a system whereby the ticket and reservation are one and the same (i.e. in essence all tickets are Advances). So unless they were satisfied to lose the value of their ticket, then yes, they would.
Well in that case there will be no one getting left on the platform.
no one has given a convincing case for significant numbers being pushed into cars by CR that is likely to be greater than the number who would be attracted by the greater certainty of avoiding a crap trip.
So if the trains will be carrying significantly fewer people, what do you think those people who are turned away are going to do in a lot of cases? If there is another train 15 minutes later that has space they will probably be fine with that, but if it's much longer they probably won't - especially if travelling with work. Also, the uncertainty will be a big factor - if they don't know what time they will finish work or finish the particular task they have travelled to carry out (applies to many), they might well not be prepared to risk having to hang around for hours, and so use a car.
The answer to overcrowding is longer trains / units running in pairs, etc, at the times when there is demand. A lot of the demand is not going to be particularly flexible time-wise - even with more home working, there will still be morning and evening peaks; Friday afternoons and Sunday evenings will still be busy. You seem to be expecting passengers to arrange their travel plans to suit the convenience of the railways. That's not how it works - if the railways won't accommodate them at the time they want to travel, many will use alternatives if available.
Your point about 'the number who would be attracted by the greater certainly of avoiding a crap trip' is obviously irrelevant. If the trains are full there is no need to attract some people by turning a greater number away.
I travelled today from Wakefield to Leeds with LNER. I didn't make a reservation despite both the screen and manual announcement at the station insisting it was mandatory. Turned out it was a set swap and reservations weren't applied anyway. Announcement from guard was to sit in any socially distanced seat (like I've been doing with Northern for over 12 months without issue) but technically I could have been refused travel despite there being plenty of capacity. If intercity operators wish to go down this route they need to be giving up paths to local operators who are willing to accommodate those requiring flexibility. It would be crazy to prevent passengers boarding at Wakefield for Leeds with ample capacity remaining, forcing them on to a crowded Northern stopper which then leaves passengers behind at Outwood, for example
It also raises the question of what to do if there's an issue in the carriage you're reserved in. For example the air con has packed in, there's a disruptive passenger or the WiFi isn't working, you wouldn't be able to move to another part of the train
I travelled today from Wakefield to Leeds with LNER. I didn't make a reservation despite both the screen and manual announcement at the station insisting it was mandatory. Turned out it was a set swap and reservations weren't applied anyway. Announcement from guard was to sit in any socially distanced seat (like I've been doing with Northern for over 12 months without issue) but technically I could have been refused travel despite there being plenty of capacity. If intercity operators wish to go down this route they need to be giving up paths to local operators who are willing to accommodate those requiring flexibility. It would be crazy to prevent passengers boarding at Wakefield for Leeds with ample capacity remaining, forcing them on to a crowded Northern stopper which then leaves passengers behind at Outwood, for example
It also raises the question of what to do if there's an issue in the carriage you're reserved in. For example the air con has packed in, there's a disruptive passenger or the WiFi isn't working, you wouldn't be able to move to another part of the train
Ever since moving to Scotland in 1984, and when travelling alone (ie minus wife and kids) me, every single time - Until Covid ! Partly because, as a free pass holder, I did not wish to deny a fare-paying passenger a seat, partly because I prefer flexibility in travel plans, and partly because I almost always got a seat anyway. I took the chance that on odd occasions i might not, eg around Xmas (I once sat on a pile of mailbags in a BG from New St to Glasgow Central in the 1980s) or when services are disrupted by bad weather (such as February last year when I stood in a vestibule from Carlisle to Glasgow Central). But that was my choice.
For these reasons I am not in favour of compulsory reservations, but OTOH Mr and Mrs Public do (rightly) expect a seat; Perhaps one solution is to advise that where reservations are available they are recommended, and busy trains where this is actually essential are highlighted.
Perhaps one solution is to advise that where reservations are available they are recommended, and busy trains where this is actually essential are highlighted.
Along these lines, operators like DB and SBB give the projected occupancy as part of the journey planning process. I've always viewed at as extremely helpful when I've got a bit of wiggle room in my timings.
(this has very definitely been mentioned before but it's worth it again)
Example from the SBB journey planner showing different levels of occupancy for a series of itineraries between Zurich and Luzern:
Along these lines, operators like DB and SBB give the projected occupancy as part of the journey planning process. I've always viewed at as extremely helpful when I've got a bit of wiggle room in my timings.
(this has very definitely been mentioned before but it's worth it again)
Example from the SBB journey planner showing different levels of occupancy for a series of itineraries between Zurich and Luzern:
There is/was something on the LNER site that did something similar, but not live. It's not there now that I can see (although I did find a map that suggests there's an hourly LNER service between Leeds and York...).
There is/was something on the LNER site that did something similar, but not live. It's not there now that I can see (although I did find a map that suggests there's an hourly LNER service between Leeds and York...).
As safeguarded retired staff I am not entitled to grumble, but.... what irks me is the number of 'reserved' seats which are not used. A few weeks ago I was coming back from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading on the 1A18 (11.30 to Paddington) - a block of around 20 seats in coach A were shown as reserved from Bristol to Paddington. Nobody at all turned up - well, other than me, who had free range over pointless reservations once the train started.
I'm thinking about a trip out that will involve using Grand Central so I had a look on there website about reservations, it was intresting what I found out.
Coach B 20 seats available out of 56
Coach C 19 seats available out of 56
Coach D 24 seats available out of 68
Coach E 18 seats available out of 42, wheelchair space not included, 1st class
Coach F 12 seats available out of 46, wheelchair space not included.
In coach F there was a large block of seats that it did not say that you could reserve or that you could just use them.
So for a train that could seat 268 plus 2 wheelchairs it's down to 93.
I don't know how well Grand Central enforce the CR idea, but I'll try and book some seats on the two trains that I want to travel on soon.
This link should take you to the seating plane for the GC 180s.
I'll take your word for it - but it doesn't happen every time. I'll try and catch it some time next week and see. Never noted it before - and I am quite good at 'noting'!
If they are moaning about selling too many tickets they are clearly understanding the concept of reservations and capacity limits.
I would interested to see how many passengers don’t book when going on Intercity (as intercity rather than using it for a short hop). I don’t reckon it’s many, due to all the advance discounts and the increase in online sales.
Exactly. Most of the people who would be inconvencienced by having to stand for long distance will be travelling on an advance with seat reservation, or will have reserved a seat anyway. The people who are left standing if the train is very busy are likely to be me, doing a short hop between say Grantham and Peterborough as part of a much longer journey.
Standing for 25 minutes is no great invonvenience for me. Having my entire ay thrown into disarray because there isn't a seat left, or, even more absurdly, there are plenty of seats but I haven't booked one is a far greater inconvenience and will just push me into the car (much as I detest long distance car travel)
Because it doesn't work particularly well. People occupy reserved seats without a reservation and often won't move if asked and the whole experience of using a crowded train is poor.
I've never encountered this. I've turfed loads of people out of seats and never had an issue, and I don't think I can recall anyone else having an issue either. I've been turfed out myself and had no issue.
The one thing that seems to be a big issue (when operating at full capacity, which e.g. LNER isn't at the moment) is where IC type trains provide the main local service. To be honest, I'd be looking at recasting so this is no longer the case, by slightly reducing IC frequencies and adding local trains.
Well that would be great - but the railway should do that bit first, rather than attempt to enact a policy that is currently ludicrously unworkable for many passengers.
So how could CR work for missed connections? (Especially with current reduced capacity due to social distancing). Again, irritating but not the end of the world if the next train is 15 minutes but considerably less appealing on, say XC south of Reading (every 2 hours - bad enough missing one as I did last week thanks to AWC, never mind multiple).
I suppose that the counter argument would be that airline networks have the same feature, though I experienced FlyBe (remember them?) "bumping": accomodating disrupted passengers instead of those with bookings for the flight. Which just raises a whole load of different questions.
So how could CR work for missed connections? (Especially with current reduced capacity due to social distancing). Again, irritating but not the end of the world if the next train is 15 minutes but considerably less appealing on, say XC south of Reading (every 2 hours - bad enough missing one as I did last week thanks to AWC, never mind multiple).
I suppose that the counter argument would be that airline networks have the same feature, though I experienced FlyBe (remember them?) "bumping": accomodating disrupted passengers instead of those with bookings for the flight. Which just raises a whole load of different questions.
I don't think it's fair to include the temporary social distancing requirements in it - the situation is very different from normal, and regardless of your view on CR this will cause reduced capacity on all trains, CR or not, at least for individuals who think a crush-load is unsafe for them in the present situation. So I think in a discussion of permanent CR vs not this should be disregarded.
How could it work? Well, I outlined an ideal-world situation above - automatic rebooking. But there are a few options, not least the one of allowing slight overbooking in this scenario only, because it's only going to be a few people in most cases. (Airlines don't have that option as standing loads are not allowed for safety).
Correct on both points. Peak travel, obviously, the worst time for 'too busy'. Pleas over the years for people to stagger peak travel have fallen on deaf ears - on the railway this concept is hard to do as there are scheduled services. If you drive you can choose, perhaps, a more convenient time/route.
As safeguarded retired staff I am not entitled to grumble, but.... what irks me is the number of 'reserved' seats which are not used. A few weeks ago I was coming back from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading on the 1A18 (11.30 to Paddington) - a block of around 20 seats in coach A were shown as reserved from Bristol to Paddington. Nobody at all turned up - well, other than me, who had free range over pointless reservations once the train started. Ditto assorted instances out of Paddington/Reading heading west. We have the lights now, but it was much the same with HSTs.
I am interested to see what happens with regard to HS2 with CR - high speed, 300 kph+ - will it be CR like Eurostar, TGV,AVE?
But because they just say "reserved" from train origin to destination, once the train leaves the origin people sit in them if unoccupied as if they would with any seat where whoever hasn't turned up.
How could it work? Well, I outlined an ideal-world situation above - automatic rebooking. But there are a few options, not least the one of allowing slight overbooking in this scenario only, because it's only going to be a few people in most cases. (Airlines don't have that option as standing loads are not allowed for safety).
Ah, so you want CR to prevent standing passengers degrading the seated passengers journey. But now you're saying CR, but overbooking so that there are...standing passengers!
This just illustrates the fact that proponents of CR haven't even scratched the surface of the implications. Broadly they are:
Less flexibility for passengers
Severe issues in times of disruption (automatic rebooking won't work as I pointed out earlier, because savvier people will get an earlier connection if they must make the reserved train for arrival time at destination reasons)
Wasted seats/capacity because people without a booking will be prevented from boarding a train, even if there are seats available
This reduction in capacity implies ticket prices will rise to fill the revenue gap that will result.
Intercity shouldn’t be used to provide local capacity. If this isn’t possible then you flex the system - have standing reservations for specific trips for example
The general public would prefer certainty and a decent trip. Metro and suburban operators wouldn’t be CR, longer distance commuters would probably be the most able to quickly use a CR flexible booking system well, and like having a seat and less of a scrum getting on.
Intercity shouldn’t be used to provide local capacity. If this isn’t possible then you flex the system - have standing reservations for specific trips for example
Mmm. For specific long distance high speed routes, which tend not to also carry a large number of people travelling just one or two stops on such services as part of a longer journey. They also don't sell flexible tickets such as an anytime return which allow you to just turn up and go. Different kettle of fish.
If the railway doesn't want passengers to have the flexibility to travel at the drop of a hat, such tickets should be removed from sale.
Today I have booked tickets for my regular weekly commute tomorrow. Split anytime and off peak returns. As has been normal for the past few weeks, both the CrossCountry and LNER services for my return are "unavailable", unless I want to be home around 11pm. And as I have done for weeks, I'll rock up and travel on them tomorrow and they will be barely one third full, if that.
Whole thing is absurd and I will continue to ignore it.
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Intercity shouldn’t be used to provide local capacity. If this isn’t possible then you flex the system - have standing reservations for specific trips for example
Rebooking. If it’s the railways fault then they give you a standing reservation
The general public would prefer certainty and a decent trip. Metro and suburban operators wouldn’t be CR, longer distance commuters would probably be the most able to quickly use a CR flexible booking system well, and like having a seat and less of a scrum getting on.
So I miss my planned train home because my meeting overran. I can't rebook because the system says the next train is "full" (even though that's highly unlikely). What then? Travelodge for the night?
Meanwhile someone who could have travelled on the train I booked couldn't, because I'd bagsied a seat I ended up not using. No I'm not going to get my phone out in the middle of a meeting to cancel it.
The general public would prefer certainty and a decent trip. Metro and suburban operators wouldn’t be CR, longer distance commuters would probably be the most able to quickly use a CR flexible booking system well, and like having a seat and less of a scrum getting on.
The problem with this is that those same long distance services also provide vital short distance links between other services to make an end to end journey. CR means I have NO CERTAINTY I can actually get home from work. It's stupid.
CR will make sense on HS2 (though even then I'd question it with the service frequencies that are proposed) as it's more or less completely segregated from the existing network. Anywhere else it's just daft and will result in more car miles.
They shouldn’t be on Intercity, which is meant for long distance travellers. Local services should be provided (and CR would make that more viable)
However it is unavoidable in some circumstances and the system can be flexed for those. Shouldn‘t be using fringe cases to avoid the whole principle.
They shouldn’t be on Intercity, which is meant for long distance travellers. Local services should be provided (and CR would make that more viable)
However it is unavoidable in some circumstances and the system can be flexed for those. Shouldn‘t be using fringe cases to avoid the whole principle.
Err. But we aren't in an imaginary world where intercity trains only carry long distance passengers. By all means have CR on intercity trains when there is a viable solution for us mere mortals doing cross country journeys that involve an intercity train portion.
Even CrossCountry are doing this nonsense on what are very "local" services in places. Eg the trains to Stansted stopping at Whittlesea, Manea etc. Not that I've seen anyone even doing revenue checks let alone seat reservation checks on CrossCountry, but still!
Even CrossCountry are doing this nonsense on what are very "local" services in places. Eg the trains to Stansted stopping at Whittlesea, Manea etc. Not that I've seen anyone even doing revenue checks let alone seat reservation checks on CrossCountry, but still!
That isn't the railway network we have though, and it would take a lot of effort, time and money to get to that point.
The reality is that right now, intercity services do have to provide for local passengers and trying to get away from that quickly will result in multiple groups of passengers losing flexibility and choice, and ultimately being pushed away from the railway.
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