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Media Coverage of COVID -19

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Domh245

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Completely incorrect headlines like this in todays daily mail doesn't help.
"

Britain's daily Covid cases rise by 37% in a week to 10,633​

I'm not sure where 37% increase in a week comes from? I make it 5% increase.


10,633 announced today. 7742 announced last Monday. (10633-7742)/7742 = 37%
 
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ChrisC

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The number of deaths from Covid thankfully currently remain very low. Today’s figure is 5. I don’t think there have been any days with more than 20 for quite some time now. Figures for admissions to hospital are still relatively low and even the last few days figures of around 10,000 a day testing positive is a very small percentage of the total U.K. population.

When numbers are a low as this, even a small increase will show as a large percentage and unfortunately the media will often report these percentage figures without displaying the data that produced this.
It can be made to look very serious and can frighten people. For example, hospitals local to me in Mansfield have had a very worrying percentage increase in admissions during the last 7 days. There has been a 100% increase in hospital admissions. A headline to really frighten people. The truth is there have been two admissions during the last 7 days when last week there was only one!
 

Mcr Warrior

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Indeed! Lies, damned lies and statistics, eh?! :rolleyes:

(65% of folk attribute that quote to Mark Twain, the other 45% to Benjamin Disraeli).

P.S. There are several undeniable truths about statistics: First and foremost, they can be manipulated, massaged and mis-stated. ... Second, if bogus statistical information is repeated often enough, it might eventually be considered to be true.
 

35B

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What you appear to be saying is that Hancock wanted to delay the lifting of restrictions but the evidence didn’t support this, so he withheld it. And somehow that’s OK?

We were told “data not dates” remember, or should that only pertain to maintaining restrictions?
No, I am saying that the data at that time was unclear - in either direction - and that Hancock used the political dark arts to drive the discussion the way he felt right. And as he's the one in the firing line if the numbers are wrong, I'm inclined to cut him a little slack for making those judgements.

And, yes, "data not dates" does work in both directions - where the data is there.

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What do we expect its fear porn by the media! Over exaggerating things it’s ok I believe in karma and think media will get theirs soon enough

Its also to note that they called it the Indian Variant than what the WHO called it Delta - to me it does seem media can't even keep up with variants let alone new names - can the media tell me the winning numbers on the lottery by chance?
So as @Dent says, the number is right. And as for naming, it occurs to me that the Heil may just have it's own reasons for not using the "Delta" naming convention.
 

kez19

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No, I am saying that the data at that time was unclear - in either direction - and that Hancock used the political dark arts to drive the discussion the way he felt right. And as he's the one in the firing line if the numbers are wrong, I'm inclined to cut him a little slack for making those judgements.

And, yes, "data not dates" does work in both directions - where the data is there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


So as @Dent says, the number is right. And as for naming, it occurs to me that the Heil may just have it's own reasons for not using the "Delta" naming convention.

For the point being is the media can't keep up with the names regardless its bad enough Sturgeon renaming the Indian one to April 02 (or for the sake of April Fools the day after), its made up claptrap.
 

Yew

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No, I am saying that the data at that time was unclear - in either direction - and that Hancock used the political dark arts to drive the discussion the way he felt right. And as he's the one in the firing line if the numbers are wrong, I'm inclined to cut him a little slack for making those judgements.

And, yes, "data not dates" does work in both directions - where the data is there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


So as @Dent says, the number is right. And as for naming, it occurs to me that the Heil may just have it's own reasons for not using the "Delta" naming convention.
The test is not 'is it safe to open up' but 'is the risk high enough that it justifies remaining closed'.
 

Domh245

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Sorry sky news said that there was 10094 cases last Monday, not 7742


Ah, I see. Sky's been rather naughty there and conflated last monday's cases by specimen date with this monday's reported. The former is constantly changing (at this stage, by 1 or 2, here or there) and now sits at 10,099 - comparing specimen-date with specimen date it's 10,099 vs 0 (!)
 

Darandio

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No, I am saying that the data at that time was unclear - in either direction - and that Hancock used the political dark arts to drive the discussion the way he felt right. And as he's the one in the firing line if the numbers are wrong, I'm inclined to cut him a little slack for making those judgements.

So we have reports of Hancock holding back key data, this is of course denied by the clan around him but that's not unexpected. It's also reported that the data presented in the briefing last week was out of date, this isn't the first time it has happened. Bear in mind that doing this even once is completely unacceptable.

So despite repeatedly being told that all decisions will be based properly on data it seems all we rely on is an incompetent health secretary with no medical background to speak of making snap decisions that affect millions of people by interpreting the data as he sees fit or because he feels it's 'right'. And people defend this? o_O
 

DustyBin

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No, I am saying that the data at that time was unclear - in either direction - and that Hancock used the political dark arts to drive the discussion the way he felt right. And as he's the one in the firing line if the numbers are wrong, I'm inclined to cut him a little slack for making those judgements.

And, yes, "data not dates" does work in both directions - where the data is there.

Come off it, the data was clear and Hancock chose not to disclose it as it didn’t support what he wanted. “Dark arts” as you refer to it equals deceiving the PM and the British public and he needs to go as a result.

Regardless of the above, now the data certainly IS there, it’s time to end this nonsense don’t you think?
 

35B

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So we have reports of Hancock holding back key data, this is of course denied by the clan around him but that's not unexpected. It's also reported that the data presented in the briefing last week was out of date, this isn't the first time it has happened. Bear in mind that doing this even once is completely unacceptable.

So despite repeatedly being told that all decisions will be based properly on data it seems all we rely on is an incompetent health secretary with no medical background to speak of making snap decisions that affect millions of people by interpreting the data as he sees fit or because he feels it's 'right'. And people defend this? o_O
So there’s no advice within his department, and it’s just the SoS acting on his own hunches?

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Come off it, the data was clear and Hancock chose not to disclose it as it didn’t support what he wanted. “Dark arts” as you refer to it equals deceiving the PM and the British public and he needs to go as a result.

Regardless of the above, now the data certainly IS there, it’s time to end this nonsense don’t you think?
I’d love to live in a world where data is so binary; wherever I look, what I see is genuine uncertainty about the implications of the current data. Reading the latest independent modelling by James Ward (consistently much more positive than official models) this morning, what leapt out at me was just how sensitively balanced case numbers are, now and through the autumn and winter.

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Roll up roll up who is first to say this isn’t correct?
I’ve no idea whether he’s correct. But as I wouldn’t trust Cummins if he told me it was sunny outside without checking, I’m not inclined to waste my time watching that video.
 
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VauxhallandI

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So there’s no advice within his department, and it’s just the SoS acting on his own hunches?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I’d love to live in a world where data is so binary; wherever I look, what I see is genuine uncertainty about the implications of the current data. Reading the latest independent modelling by James Ward (consistently much more positive than official models) this morning, what leapt out at me was just how sensitively balanced case numbers are, now and through the autumn and winter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I’ve no idea whether he’s correct. But as I wouldn’t trust Cummins if he told me it was sunny outside without checking, I’m not inclined to waste my time watching that video.
Wow so complete denial now.

You’re going to ignore the data, unbelievable
 

Bantamzen

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Come off it, the data was clear and Hancock chose not to disclose it as it didn’t support what he wanted. “Dark arts” as you refer to it equals deceiving the PM and the British public and he needs to go as a result.
I must confess that when I saw that quoted I wondered if I was in some Harry Potter fan club thread....

Seriously though, having worked in the public sector for over 30 years this kind of behaviour by Hancock is not uncommon. Certainly I have encountered it quite a few times directly through my work, so whilst it really makes me angry, it doesn't surprise me. The "dark arts" are really just businesses as usual.

Regardless of the above, now the data certainly IS there, it’s time to end this nonsense don’t you think?
There is certainly enough data for PHE to conclude that rising cases in this current wave are unlikely to cause a crisis for the NHS, exactly what Hancock was keeping from BoJo. But for some even this won't be enough....
 

DustyBin

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I’d love to live in a world where data is so binary; wherever I look, what I see is genuine uncertainty about the implications of the current data. Reading the latest independent modelling by James Ward (consistently much more positive than official models) this morning, what leapt out at me was just how sensitively balanced case numbers are, now and through the autumn and winter.

This is as certain as it will ever get in my opinion. If you’re looking for absolute certainty you’re going to be disappointed and we cannot afford to wait for something that may not (probably won’t) materialise. This state of restrictions is becoming normalised, we should not be living like this without very, very good reason. The bar for imposing these kind of restrictions is (or was) set incredibly high, we’re nowhere near that bar and we absolutely should not be setting a similarly high bar for their removal.
 

35B

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This is as certain as it will ever get in my opinion. If you’re looking for absolute certainty you’re going to be disappointed and we cannot afford to wait for something that may not (probably won’t) materialise. This state of restrictions is becoming normalised, we should not be living like this without very, very good reason. The bar for imposing these kind of restrictions is (or was) set incredibly high, we’re nowhere near that bar and we absolutely should not be setting a similarly high bar for their removal.
It is getting to that position, though with significant challenges, but it wasn't when the decisions were taken. My understanding is that herd immunity for Covid with the Delta variant is at c.85% of the total population fully vaccinated, on which basis continuing restrictions for the extra month to 19th July wasn't an unreasonable call.
Wow so complete denial now.

You’re going to ignore the data, unbelievable
No, I'm going to ignore a printer engineer cum grifter with no relevant expertise, a track record of misinformation which includes deleting evidence of falsified predictions, and who is busily profiting from the pandemic while apparently denying that vaccination has any role to play.
 

Markdvdman

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So there’s no advice within his department, and it’s just the SoS acting on his own hunches?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I’d love to live in a world where data is so binary; wherever I look, what I see is genuine uncertainty about the implications of the current data. Reading the latest independent modelling by James Ward (consistently much more positive than official models) this morning, what leapt out at me was just how sensitively balanced case numbers are, now and through the autumn and winter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I’ve no idea whether he’s correct. But as I wouldn’t trust Cummins if he told me it was sunny outside without checking, I’m not inclined to waste my time watching that video.
You do realise he is a PROPER Scientist? Cummins cites PROPER SCIENTIFIC journalism not the mumbo jumbo lies delivered by the government 'scientists' amd those buffoons from Sage. You do realise restrictions in Wales alone is costing the economy £10m a week? How can we justify relentlessly going on this path as it will lead to bankrupt countries! THIS CANNOT go on and has to end at some point - spo should the pathetic BBC/ITV and SKY in this country! They are SCARE MONGERING!! Promoting fear which is immoral!
 

VauxhallandI

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It is getting to that position, though with significant challenges, but it wasn't when the decisions were taken. My understanding is that herd immunity for Covid with the Delta variant is at c.85% of the total population fully vaccinated, on which basis continuing restrictions for the extra month to 19th July wasn't an unreasonable call.

No, I'm going to ignore a printer engineer cum grifter with no relevant expertise, a track record of misinformation which includes deleting evidence of falsified predictions, and who is busily profiting from the pandemic while apparently denying that vaccination has any role to play.
No you are going to ignore the numbers - watch it with the sound off.
 

kristiang85

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Ed Conway - who is one of the very few MSM journalists who I find more trustworthy when it comes to COVID commentary - has this decent analysis (video in link, text pasted below). It's basically a more eloquent version of Cummins' video, but boils down to the same conclusion.


The only thing I'll add is that clearly we won't be at 25,000 cases in mid July - we are reaching the top of a curve that will level out before then.

Back when the prime minister first announced the roadmap for ending the COVID-19 lockdown, the modellers who provide numbers for SAGE, his scientific advisory board, produced a few charts showing what might happen in the event of the UK opening up.

Now these models are, to some extent, ancient history.


They happened before the arrival of the Delta/Indian variant on these shores, and some of the scenarios assumed a slightly quicker re-opening than was envisaged at the time.

All the same, it's worth pondering what these models said, since such things tend to guide government policy and in this case there is a jarring difference between the projections and what actually happened.

Back then, Imperial's model suggested that we could be facing a total COVID hospital population in England of nearly 60,000 - far, far higher than in previous waves of the disease. Even their middle-of-the-range scenario said that hospital numbers would currently be close to 15,000.

So what, pray, is the latest hospital population - the number to compare with these projections? Just 1,290 people. Now, this number is certainly rising, but it's worth saying it's currently somewhat better than even the best-case scenario put forward by Imperial, and not far off the best-case scenarios posited by epidemiologists at Warwick.

The point here is twofold. First, things are going well, very well, in comparison with what anyone expected in the early spring. There are likely to be a few explanations: the vaccine programme is outperforming expectations, lockdown is lasting a little longer than expected (though this latter factor is probably too recent to reflect in the numbers). The second is that everyone had expected a rise in cases this summer.

What is happening at present - with cases going up and up - is not a surprise. Indeed, it is the plan.

Keep that in the back of your mind as you see the case figures in the coming weeks. Yes they are high, and yes they are rising, but they are not exactly surprising and they shouldn't necessarily provoke the panic they once did.

Let's look at that growth rate though, because here again there is some tentatively encouraging news. A couple of weeks ago, cases were mounting at a fair snap, doubling every nine days, on average.

Had that continued we'd have been exceeding 20,000 cases a day this week. As it is we are slightly above 10,000 and the growth rate has dropped; in the week up to last Monday they were growing by around 4% a day - the equivalent of doubling every 18 days.

Yes it's still growth, yes it's still exponential (by most definitions of that word) but the growth rate is much smaller. It's the difference between 100,000 cases a day by mid-July and 25,000 cases a day.

Strikingly, at the time the prime minister took his decision to delay the ending of lockdown last week, Britain's case growth had already dropped from 8% to 4%.

But, as I say, the real question these days is not merely about case growth, but whether those cases turn into hospitalisations and deaths. Have we broken the deadly link, thanks to vaccines and antibodies?

Here too the evidence is encouraging, though it's still early to declare victory. One way of looking at this is by comparing the number of cases across the country with the number of hospital admissions.

This is not a perfect measure, since it could well be engulfed by a surge in cases. Even so, the average number of people going into hospital per 1,000 COVID cases detected has dropped from 80 in the spring to just below 50 now.

There is anecdotal talk about those stays in hospital being shorter too, which is tricky to draw out that convincingly from the datasets we have, but it seems consistent. Look at the age profile of those going into hospital and it's similarly encouraging. For most of the pandemic, the admissions numbers were dominated by those aged 65 and over. Today, for the first time in this pandemic, those under 65 are outnumbering those over 65.

Put it all together and it is quietly encouraging. It suggests that the vaccine programme is working. Best of all, deaths remain very, very low especially in comparison with cases. Saying all of this doesn't mean there is no need for caution.

All of the above is based off a few weeks of data and things could change as people mix more. Deaths are likely to rise again - but the question is whether they rise quickly or slowly. That's one of the crucial things we'll be monitoring in the coming weeks.
 

MikeWM

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Did anyone think 'vaccine passports' had gone away?

...However, a Whitehall source told the Mail last night the scheme could be used to keep open a much wider range of venues if a surge this winter requires ministers to consider lockdown restrictions.

‘The reason we are trialling Covid certification this summer is partly to get mass events open more safely with bigger crowds, but also partly to get people used to the idea,’ the source said.
(bold mine)

I suspect they weren't getting sufficient support to introduce them quite yet - there was massive pushback from hospitality etc. But given the choice of 'accept vaccine passports or close your business yet again', that will probably get them over the line.

Indeed the article says exactly that:

Dozens of Tory MPs have warned they will vote against the use of Covid passports in pubs. But ministers believe opposition may soften if the alternative is the closure of sections of the economy.
 

Cdd89

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given the choice of 'accept vaccine passports or close your business yet again', that will probably get them over the line.
If it came to it, I’d support them on that basis too. Lockdowns are more damaging than vaccine passports, and regrettably the arguments over lockdowns appear to have been lost.

But it is absolutely a false choice, and if I were forced to take a position, it would have to be very much under threat of lockdown. The fact is they will undoubtedly save some lives, and I’ve seen enough people (even on here) saying every death is a moral insult and everything should be done to prevent them, that I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s presented.
 

kristiang85

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I think this is what will happen - winter will come and we will be presented with a choice of lockdown or vaccine passports. Most perople (and therefore MPs) will go for the passports given that choice.

The flaw in the argument is that lockdowns should not be necessary at all. But that genie seems to be out of the bottle now, and people have been too meek.

Obviously that report which savaged them and said they were incredibly discriminatory has been consigned to the bin...
 

Cdd89

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Hopefully the opposition in parliament remembers what they are there for. Currently, they are holding what I believe to be the irreconcilable position of supporting lockdowns (beyond the minimum necessary), but opposing vaccine passports.
 

MikeWM

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I think this is what will happen - winter will come and we will be presented with a choice of lockdown or vaccine passports. Most perople (and therefore MPs) will go for the passports given that choice.

The flaw in the argument is that lockdowns should not be necessary at all. But that genie seems to be out of the bottle now, and people have been too meek.

Indeed - we're back, yet again, to tactics used by abusers. You can only do normal thing 'A' with all sorts of conditions, or you're not allowed to do it at all. The fact that previously you did 'A' without any conditions at all isn't mentioned, and over time the abused forgets that this was even an option.
 

NorthOxonian

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The only thing I'll add is that clearly we won't be at 25,000 cases in mid July - we are reaching the top of a curve that will level out before then.
Yes - though it depends on how the rate at which the curve is levelling out. If the weekly growth rate (currently around 30% per week) falls by 1% every day, then we would peak at 18,000 cases per day. If it falls by 2% every day, the peak drops to more like 14,000, and even if it's just falling at 0.5% every day then we'd be at 21,000 cases and not 25,000 by the middle of July.

It's difficult to tell the rate at which it's levelling off (mainly because it varies so much from day to day), but I expect it'll be close to that first scenario.
 

yorksrob

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Did anyone think 'vaccine passports' had gone away?


(bold mine)

I suspect they weren't getting sufficient support to introduce them quite yet - there was massive pushback from hospitality etc. But given the choice of 'accept vaccine passports or close your business yet again', that will probably get them over the line.

Indeed the article says exactly that:

Just what I'd expect from this Government of liars.
 

35B

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You do realise he is a PROPER Scientist? Cummins cites PROPER SCIENTIFIC journalism not the mumbo jumbo lies delivered by the government 'scientists' amd those buffoons from Sage. You do realise restrictions in Wales alone is costing the economy £10m a week? How can we justify relentlessly going on this path as it will lead to bankrupt countries! THIS CANNOT go on and has to end at some point - spo should the pathetic BBC/ITV and SKY in this country! They are SCARE MONGERING!! Promoting fear which is immoral!
His qualifications being? Meanwhile, he’s proven to have lied repeatedly about Covid, so is in no way a trustworthy source.

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Ed Conway - who is one of the very few MSM journalists who I find more trustworthy when it comes to COVID commentary - has this decent analysis (video in link, text pasted below). It's basically a more eloquent version of Cummins' video, but boils down to the same conclusion.


The only thing I'll add is that clearly we won't be at 25,000 cases in mid July - we are reaching the top of a curve that will level out before then.
Conway writes sense, and those numbers make sense in terms of what a number of people are saying. My comments about the decisions a week ago was about the data as it was then understood - those trends have had time to develop. After the past 15 months, I’ll not criticise a government that has tended to be over optimistic for a wee bit of caution to see whether indications become trends.

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Indeed - we're back, yet again, to tactics used by abusers. You can only do normal thing 'A' with all sorts of conditions, or you're not allowed to do it at all. The fact that previously you did 'A' without any conditions at all isn't mentioned, and over time the abused forgets that this was even an option.
The difference is that the restrictions on “A” in this case are for a purpose, not part of some grand plan to control us.
 

35B

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In the video he's simply showing freely available data.
I don’t deny it - I simply refuse point blank to give that grifter the benefit even of one “view” in his feed. In any case, it is not the data that matters but the interpretation of it.
 
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