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Midnight Trains - Sleepers radiating from Paris, indicates UK route

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edwin_m

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Doesn’t surprise me at all.

I wonder how they will ’depropose’ the Edinburgh service:

1) blaming the high costs of track access through the tunnel / on NR routes
2) blaming U.K. government insistence on border / customs control
3) blaming the high cost of specialist equipment / haulage neded for the tunnel / NR routes
4) further studies reveal insufficient demand
5) say nothing

One thing is for certain, they won’t blame themselves for not identifying 1-4 before proposing it.
1 to 3 are all ultimately resolvable with enough political will. 4 is the kicker.
There's also (6) structure gauge, meaning that either they need a non-standard fleet with smaller capacity for the Edinbugh service, or they use such stock for several of their services to achieve economies of scale. The reduced cross-section has much more effect for a sleeper than for a day coach.
 
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Bald Rick

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1 to 3 are all ultimately resolvable with enough political will. 4 is the kicker.

1 and 3 are about money rather than politics. Accepting that it could be solved by politicians paying - but they’re not going to.


There's also (6) structure gauge, meaning that either they need a non-standard fleet with smaller capacity for the Edinbugh service, or they use such stock for several of their services to achieve economies of scale. The reduced cross-section has much more effect for a sleeper than for a day coach.

That’s what I meant by ‘specialist equipment’.
 

XAM2175

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RT4038

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It also appears to be aimed at a high end market, which makes it even more unlikely
Isn't that the market that Wagon-Lits (CIWL) was aiming at in the days of yore? Like then, any Sleeping car train in this proposal is not going to be affordable for ordinary people.
 

LLivery

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Isn't that the market that Wagon-Lits (CIWL) was aiming at in the days of yore? Like then, any Sleeping car train in this proposal is not going to be affordable for ordinary people.

Can't say I know much about it, but does seem so. And yes, considering technicalities and that the Cally Sleeper is heavily subsidised, I'd love to see any forecasted calculations on this.


Regardless of this, Eurostar or "Greenspeed" would do well to better promote sleeper connections in the future.
 

StephenHunter

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Isn't that the market that Wagon-Lits (CIWL) was aiming at in the days of yore? Like then, any Sleeping car train in this proposal is not going to be affordable for ordinary people.

Definitely. They didn't touch couchettes, which were operated by national railways.
 

HSTEd

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Worth noting that the Caledonian Sleeper is far from the most heavily subsidised rail operator in Great Britain by passenger kilometre

It is less heavily subsidised than Scotrail itself!

But I will get my coat
 

Bald Rick

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Worth noting that the Caledonian Sleeper is far from the most heavily subsidised rail operator in Great Britain by passenger kilometre

Indeed. Although it is by far the most heavily subsidised by passenger journey, and also the host heavily subsidised long distance operator by passenger kilometre.
 

deltic

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It would be interesting to see how much that subsidy was reduced to if the service just ran London to Edinburgh and all the bizarre shunting operations were scrapped.
 

Bald Rick

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It would be interesting to see how much that subsidy was reduced to if the service just ran London to Edinburgh and all the bizarre shunting operations were scrapped.

Not much. AIUI, the Inverness / Ft Bill portions bring much of the income.
 

deltic

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Not much. AIUI, the Inverness / Ft Bill portions bring much of the income.
I am surprised by that - I would imagine Edinburgh has far more stable year round flows and the costs of operating the other sections must be far higher
 

Roast Veg

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The ‘right stock’ for the TL core would be even more specialised due to the tight gauging down there. In a fantasy world where this sleeper was to run it would be up the North London Incline and via Hampstead, Willesden, and Brixton, as indeed it was planned to 25 years ago. It would also take a LONG time, around 12 hours.
Why North London Incline over the chord at Harringay? Why Brixton over Balham? SEML from Brixton or via Redhill? Apologies, just curious about the rationale.

I'd rather see a through ticket from Edinburgh via Caledonian and Eurostar though of course...
 

Roast Veg

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No conflict Southbound (plus Harringay wasn't electrified 25 years ago, you might go that way Northbound now).
Ah yes, I see the conflict - forgot about the running direction change. I don't suppose a double reversal over the flyover is much good either.
Quicker via Brixton and Orpington, so the default choice.
Makes sense. Is the Catford Loop too busy? Crossing on the flat before Brixton seems odd when you compare to the International Floyver.
 

Peter Kelford

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I'd be very surprised if they where
No you'd need a custom order compliant with tunnel standards, UIC-RIC carriage interoperability standards, UK NR standards and Spanish CAF-Talgo gauge variation standards. In short a prohibitively expensive coach that no-one else will have any use for and which will take more than 2 and a half years to be delivered and in service. There's maybe one supplier who can do it, CAF, and they would be well advised to raise their prices...


Curiously they seem to want to run a 375-metre train to a station with a 290m platform.
 

30907

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Makes sense. Is the Catford Loop too busy?
Not particularly, though these days there's the Overground to get in the way :)

I doubt if "Brixton" was meant to exclude the Atlantic Lines - routing from Factory Jn to Shortlands Jn generally is pretty pragmatic (drivers have a longstanding instruction to accept any of the 3 options), and at the sort of time a Scotland-Paris sleeper would have passed would have changed regularly because of engineering work
Crossing on the flat before Brixton seems odd when you compare to the International Floyver.
Said flyover was on the flat at the SE end too, but a fair point - again, not likely to be an issue at those times of day.
 

StephenHunter

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No you'd need a custom order compliant with tunnel standards, UIC-RIC carriage interoperability standards, UK NR standards and Spanish CAF-Talgo gauge variation standards. In short a prohibitively expensive coach that no-one else will have any use for and which will take more than 2 and a half years to be delivered and in service. There's maybe one supplier who can do it, CAF, and they would be well advised to raise their prices...


Curiously they seem to want to run a 375-metre train to a station with a 290m platform.
The length requirements have gone, mind.
 

nlogax

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This story now making the rounds of mainstream press.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...-of-european-sleeper-overnight-trains-planned

Less than a decade after Europe’s night trains appeared to have reached the end of the line, a new French start-up has announced plans for a network of overnight services out of Paris from 2024.

Midnight Trains is hoping post-Covid interest in cleaner, greener travel will generate interest in its proposed “hotels on rails”, which aims to connect the French capital to 12 other European destinations, including Edinburgh.
 

LLivery

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MarkyT

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Surprised they have no route proposed to the Caucasus, then they could have a "Midnight Train to Georgia".
 

RT4038

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That's interesting and totally the opposite of what it sounded like.
I m sure it will not be like the very expensive tourist 'Orient Express', but more like the Caledonian Sleeper, which operates at the higher end of the market, not really for 'ordinary' passengers except on special occasions. (as the former 'Wagon-Lits' was pre the airline age).
 

ainsworth74

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That's interesting and totally the opposite of what it sounded like.

I'm not so sure. SNCF Intercités de Nuit are about as basic a sleeper service as you're likely to find. The ever useful Man in Seat 61 has a video which I'll link below but we're talking 6-bunk (second class) or 4-bunk (first class) couchette cars only with sleeping bags provided. No actual sleeper vehicles and catering in the form of vending machines. It's properly basic compared to most other sleeper services! So I can well believe that Midnight Trains will think there's a market to be had somewhere between SNCF's very basic offer and the Orient Expresses height of tourist luxury by pitching themselves as a "Hotel on Wheels" with the sorts of amenities one would expect from a modern hotel.

 

RT4038

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Will there be corridor trains between Scotland and France, post Scottish independence?
That is discussed at the beginning of this thread. Answer: only if those governments are prepared to subsidise it with an awful lot of money.
 
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