Edinburgh - Glasgow peak service

[Failed Unit]

Just a few things I have noticed recently on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route which people may know the answer to.

Are Scotrail having issues with 170 reliability? I have notice the SPT units featuring on the line a lot recently and more short formation in the peak.

I have also noticed that only one trolley exists on services which are formed of 6 coaches (normally in the rear 3). Is this a cost saving idea or is it because if you have a trolley in both sets the front set gets abused by passengers taking advantage of the lack of ticket checks in it? I recently saw a diagram with the trolley in the rear 3 (which didn't have 1st class seats) and the front 3 which did have 1st class seats didn't have any catering, good service to first class passengers.

 

[route101]

Just a few things I have noticed recently on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route which people may know the answer to.

Are Scotrail having issues with 170 reliability? I have notice the SPT units featuring on the line a lot recently and more short formation in the peak.

I have also noticed that only one trolley exists on services which are formed of 6 coaches (normally in the rear 3). Is this a cost saving idea or is it because if you have a trolley in both sets the front set gets abused by passengers taking advantage of the lack of ticket checks in it? I recently saw a diagram with the trolley in the rear 3 (which didn't have 1st class seats) and the front 3 which did have 1st class seats didn't have any catering, good service to first class passengers.

Im not an expert but whenever ive taken the 1615 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen St it is a 6 car with one 3 car SPT 170 and departs platform 11 . Im surprised there is catering on this route with it being every 15 mins . Isent the freq increasing further
?

 

[Failed Unit]

Im not an expert but whenever ive taken the 1615 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen St it is a 6 car with one 3 car SPT 170 and departs platform 11 . Im surprised there is catering on this route with it being every 15 mins . Isent the freq increasing further
?

It is odd that it justifys a trolley considering it is 50 minutes and SouthEastern's rip off line doesn't warrent one for a 2 hour journey. But it does sell stuff despite both Edinburgh and Glasgow having good catering outlets. I suppose it is the Scotrail flagship service.

They tried to remove 1st class from the route in the 1990's when the 158's took over, not a popular choice and it was soon back again with an area of the 158 converted (well screened off the seats were no different)

Again 1st class on a 50 minute journey - take not SouthEastern on your rip-off line!

 

[90019]

I have notice the SPT units featuring on the line a lot recently and more short formation in the peak.

As far as I know, the SPT 170s are in a common pool with the rest of the 170s and can turn up on pretty much anything (I had one on a Dunblane train a couple of weeks back).

Out of the 59 they have, only 9 are SPT ones.

 

[CarterUSM]

As far as catering goes, i'm led to believe that in a 6 car formation the trolley should always be in the trailing set anyway. I don't know the reason for this, but i have definitely read it on some company literature at some point. I will try and find out though as it os irritating me!

 

[Failed Unit]

As far as catering goes, i'm led to believe that in a 6 car formation the trolley should always be in the trailing set anyway. I don't know the reason for this, but i have definitely read it on some company literature at some point. I will try and find out though as it os irritating me!

I always thought it was so it was in the same set as the gaurd.

Any idea when the stopped having a trolley per set. I am sure on my stint in Scotland last year they were in both sets.

 

[CarterUSM]

I always thought it was so it was in the same set as the gaurd.

Any idea when the stopped having a trolley per set. I am sure on my stint in Scotland last year they were in both sets.

Thats what i tend to think myself, but i'm not really sure. I don't know about 2 trolleys per service, maybe there are still some, but i don't know a lot about the catering side at all.

 

[Username]

The reason the trolley is always in the rear set of a six car formation is to do with the SQUIRE agreement (or whatever they're calling it these days).

Scotrail won't put two trolleys on because they won't pay the staff, pure and simple. And so long as a trolley is somewhere on board then they meet the 'Service and Quality' requirements. It was agreed that the trolley would be located in the rear three coaches so that when a service was audited the SQUIRE chappy would know which portion to look in to see if the requirement was being met.

Now with a six car set it doesn't matter which unit you decide the trolley will be in as facilities and capacities in each set are (usually) comparable.
However, there are still plenty of five car formations used across the network and this arbitrary 'always in the rear' ruling generated numerous complaints (from passengers and staff alike) when it was a 170 leading and a 158 at the rear.

In particular, one early morning five car service from Inverness to Aberdeen used to run with the 170 leading the 158. Originally the company policy was the trolley would be in the 170, since this is where the majority of passengers could be accommodated but then this changed to make things easier for SQUIRE auditing.
Cue many many complaints from many many hacked off passengers.

These complaints were pushed up the chain until they reached the bright spark who came up with the new ruling. And the response?
"Well the trolley will be in the 170 when the train goes back to Inverness. . . "

Except of course it didn't actually go back to Inverness. It split on arrival and the leading set continued south with the 158 going back north as a two car.

Eventually after much wrangling (and patient explaining to bright sparks in the central belt who's experience of the railway is limited to six car shuttles running back and forth between Edinburgh and Glasgow) it was agreed that in a five car formation the optimum position for the trolley to be was in the 170.

 

[tbtc]

Shows the problem with using sets with no corridor connections. I can see the need for sloped noses on 125mph stock, but on slower units it seems to be more about design than practicality

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm not surprised it comes down to Squire, though i cannot believe i didn't think of it myself, it is the be all and end all nowadays!

 

[route101]

With regards to the Trolley on the EDI to GLA route i notice it sells a fair few coffees/teas . I dont notice many 170/158 combos of late and its been a while since ive had a 158 via Falkirk High. Im on the 0706 ex Queen st to Inverness on set ,could that be a 158/170 set?

 

[CarterUSM]

With regards to the Trolley on the EDI to GLA route i notice it sells a fair few coffees/teas . I dont notice many 170/158 combos of late and its been a while since ive had a 158 via Falkirk High. Im on the 0706 ex Queen st to Inverness on set ,could that be a 158/170 set?

It's booked a 3 car 170 as far as i know, i've been on it a few times recently, though not for work. Never seen a 158 on it yet anyway.

 

[TheBigD]

What do the ex Hull Trains 170's do these days?

Last I heard was that they had been taken off the Inverness runs due to only having 7 1st class seats.

 

[route101]

Ah cool , ill be getting the 158 from Inverness to Thurso after that train . Is the 0706 from GLQ to INV busy on a saturday morning?

 

[bradders1983]

Ah cool , ill be getting the 158 from Inverness to Thurso after that train . Is the 0706 from GLQ to INV busy on a saturday morning?

Lucky sod. Would love to do the Far North line.

 

[CarterUSM]

Ah cool , ill be getting the 158 from Inverness to Thurso after that train . Is the 0706 from GLQ to INV busy on a saturday morning?

It's a hit and a miss, sometimes depends if Caley thistle are at home , though the 1010 is a lot busier for that. Just be at the set sharp and grab a good seat! I wouldn't think it'd be too bad anyway.

 

[90019]

What do the ex Hull Trains 170's do these days?

I think they can turn up on pretty much anything that's running with a 170.

 

[rail-britain]

the 1615 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen St
every 15 mins
Isent the freq increasing further?

There are plans to increase the frequency between Edinburgh and Glasgow Queen Street once electrification is completed, so probably looking at somewhere around 2016/2018
It has also been suggested a "temporary" timetable may be used throughout Scotland as part of the Commonwealth Games, again this is still at the planning stage (a basic timetable has been completed but requires some additional DMUs and EMUs, but responses are waited from the RoSCOs and DfT)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shows the problem with using sets with no corridor connections. I can see the need for sloped noses on 125mph stock, but on slower units it seems to be more about design than practicality

Sloped noses also help with acceleration
With regard to the Edinburgh to Glasgow QS route, the current proposal for electrification is to upgrade as much of the route to 125mph (which it was capable of when HSTs were used on the route) and to utilise 5 coach EMUs
A commuter style unit, similar to the class 380, will be used on the other routes
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What do the ex Hull Trains 170's do these days?

Two of these units typically operate on the Glasgow QS - Alloa service each day

The SPT Class 170 units used to operate on the Glasgow - Cumbernauld - Falkirk service, but these have now been replaced by Class 156 or 158

 

[CarterUSM]

Sloped noses also help with acceleration

170's need all the help they can get for acceleration, my mother has a quicker turn of pace!

 

[John @ home]

With regard to the Edinburgh to Glasgow QS route, the current proposal for electrification is to upgrade as much of the route to 125mph (which it was capable of when HSTs were used on the route)

Was it? Where? My recollection was that the Kings Cross - Glasgow Queen St HSTs did not exceed 100mph west of Wallyford.

 

[rail-britain]

Was it? Where? My recollection was that the Kings Cross - Glasgow Queen St HSTs did not exceed 100mph west of Wallyford

There was one "HST 125" speed limit board eastbound at Bishopbriggs and a further one westbound from Cadder Yard
The next section was through Croy
There was then a further section on the eastern side of the Falkirk Tunnel

 

[Failed Unit]

There was one "HST 125" speed limit board eastbound at Bishopbriggs and a further one westbound from Cadder Yard
The next section was through Croy
There was then a further section on the eastern side of the Falkirk Tunnel

Why didn't it remain east of Falkirk? The chieftain still runs on this section. I have said before even at 100mph I just can't see how they will path 6tph. A 2 track railway with lots of stopping services will be challenging. I guess we will see but I am sure loops will need to be built somewhere for overtaking.

 

[ObservationCar]

Caley thistle

Foul Language should not be tolerated on this forum lol!

Commuter stock makes perfect sense for the Glasgow-Edinburgh. In the past there was talk of a Golden Triangle, of Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh, where the best stock was used, and still is the case. But not just speaking with a northern bias, but should be a Regional Allocation of Stock for premium services outwith Dundee-Edinburgh, Glasgow-Edinburgh, with doors at the ends of coaches (Freezing when the doors of a 170 opens at Aviemore at this time of year)

 

[Eng274]

As far as I know, the SPT 170s are in a common pool with the rest of the 170s and can turn up on pretty much anything (I had one on a Dunblane train a couple of weeks back).

Out of the 59 they have, only 9 are SPT ones.

I travel on a SPT coloured unit more often than a normal liveried one on the Fife circle!

 

[90019]

I travel on a SPT coloured unit more often than a normal liveried one on the Fife circle!

They do seem to turn up on the Fife Circle a lot, but you still get them everywhere. There was one going to Alloa when I was in Stirling on tuesday, and another on a Dunblane train.

 

[jopsuk]

There are worse things Scotrail could do, as they work through the 170 fleet to get them into TS colours, than systematically reconfigure them all to a standard specification. The ones with 1st class turn up that often on no-1st class services anyway (and 158s operate these servoices- eg Edinburgh/Glasgow to Dunblane/Stirling/Alloa- as well). Do single units without 1st class ever work services that should have 1st class accomodation? Finally removing the "mini buffets" would help with capacity.

 

[route101]

im sure the spt ones have turned up at
Aberdeen . Arent these gonna get repainted ? I remember at one time there was talk of these getting put on the east kilbride line !!

 

[Failed Unit]

There are worse things Scotrail could do, as they work through the 170 fleet to get them into TS colours, than systematically reconfigure them all to a standard specification. The ones with 1st class turn up that often on no-1st class services anyway (and 158s operate these servoices- eg Edinburgh/Glasgow to Dunblane/Stirling/Alloa- as well). Do single units without 1st class ever work services that should have 1st class accomodation? Finally removing the "mini buffets" would help with capacity.

More often than Scotrail would like. Recently you will find at least one on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route. I know better than a cancelled train. 170478 has made it to Inverness. Spt versions have made it to Aberdeen as well. Not that often however. I once saw an Spt version at Glasgow heading to Edinburg and a set with first class sat next to it going to Dunblane which was strange. Maybe a set swap. Yesterday the 0745 Glasgow to Edinburgh was a single 3 coach Spt set rather than a 6 car with 1st. Disruption again I guess it is better than a cancelled train.

 

[paul1609]

It is odd that it justifys a trolley considering it is 50 minutes and SouthEastern's rip off line doesn't warrent one for a 2 hour journey. But it does sell stuff despite both Edinburgh and Glasgow having good catering outlets. I suppose it is the Scotrail flagship service.

They tried to remove 1st class from the route in the 1990's when the 158's took over, not a popular choice and it was soon back again with an area of the 158 converted (well screened off the seats were no different)

Again 1st class on a 50 minute journey - take not SouthEastern on your rip-off line!

What 2 hour Southeastern service are you talking about? Most of the classic services from Ashford via Tonbridge still have trolley services.

The longest journey on HS is 90 mins to Margate. Standard class on a 395 with 2 plus 2 seating, power sockets and decent legroom is probably better than first on scotrail.

 

[Failed Unit]

What 2 hour Southeastern service are you talking about? Most of the classic services from Ashford via Tonbridge still have trolley services.

The longest journey on HS is 90 mins to Margate. Standard class on a 395 with 2 plus 2 seating, power sockets and decent legroom is probably better than first on scotrail.

My apologies. I thought even with high speed it was still 2 hours end to end. We will have to agree to disagree about the rolling stock I prefer the turbos myself. First on the turbos is a different league to standard on the 395s. Even comparing standard to me the turbos win, the main problem with the classic lines trains was no space for reasonable sized luggage To me the only thing that is gained by using the rip off line is a seat as most people don't want to use it. But 90 minutes is long enough for first and a trolley. I am someone that thinks so. Is the premium worth it on hs1? Definately not although most journeys I make luckily I don't need to pay it!