How do you provide a local service on the ECML?

[Failed Unit]

Just to avoid clogging up this thread.

Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

Darlington appears to be one of the stations missing out, as the fastest LNER services are reverting back to missing out Darlington (currently only one LNER train per day doesn’t call, and Darlington’s fastest trains to London only call at York), so many journey times to London are increasing. I...

www.railforums.co.uk

Demand may be small but how do you solve this one? On the WCML north of Carlisle we only have Lockerbie (Carstairs is off the mainline). On the east we have a number of stations north of Newcastle.

The problem is even if the trains were flighted say.

0000 Edinburgh fast
0003 Edinburgh 1 stop
0006 Edinburgh all stops.

I suspect the following hours fast will catch up with the previous hours all slots. Above of course isn’t real as we have 3tph north of Newcastle already. Freight and they can’t flight them in this way because of the 2 track railway from Northallerton.

The Chathill service gets looped and passed, but if the IC service is late it is waiting in said loop for a long time. If it was continued to Edinburgh the delays would snowball.

Is the local service possible. To me straighten out Morpeth with a new line so the local service can be past while it calls. Maybe even 2 local services with bays built at Berwick. Likelyhood of the business case passing 0. But why should that stop us having fun.

 

[47827]

Just to avoid clogging up this thread.

Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

Darlington appears to be one of the stations missing out, as the fastest LNER services are reverting back to missing out Darlington (currently only one LNER train per day doesn’t call, and Darlington’s fastest trains to London only call at York), so many journey times to London are increasing. I...

www.railforums.co.uk

Demand may be small but how do you solve this one? On the WCML north of Carlisle we only have Lockerbie (Carstairs is off the mainline). On the east we have a number of stations north of Newcastle.

The problem is even if the trains were flighted say.

0000 Edinburgh fast
0003 Edinburgh 1 stop
0006 Edinburgh all stops.

I suspect the following hours fast will catch up with the previous hours all slots. Above of course isn’t real as we have 3tph north of Newcastle already. Freight and they can’t flight them in this way because of the 2 track railway from Northallerton.

The Chathill service gets looped and passed, but if the IC service is late it is waiting in said loop for a long time. If it was continued to Edinburgh the delays would snowball.

Is the local service possible. To me straighten out Morpeth with a new line so the local service can be past while it calls. Maybe even 2 local services with bays built at Berwick. Likelyhood of the business case passing 0. But why should that stop us having fun.

You need much longer loops and/or sections of 4 tracking. Effectively like the WCML is just south of Winsford leaving Crewe. Personally I feel reviewing the numbers of IC services on The Northern ECML longer term is another thing that needs sorting. No 5 coach trains should be getting paths in any hurry and XC should be limited to 4 or 5 services per day between Edinburgh and Newcastle as its wasting paths once you have a mix of short and longer trains running every 10 to 20 minutes, mostly fast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You need much longer loops and/or sections of 4 tracking. Effectively like the WCML is just south of Winsford leaving Crewe. Personally I feel reviewing the numbers of IC services on The Northern ECML longer term is another thing that needs sorting. No 5 coach trains should be getting paths in any hurry and XC should be limited to 4 or 5 services per day between Edinburgh and Newcastle as its wasting paths once you have a mix of short and longer trains running every 10 to 20 minutes, mostly fast.

I'd say there should be Takt with either XC or TPE operating hourly (and the other one terminating at Newcastle). And yes, loops so a proper hourly local Newcastle to Edinburgh EMU service can operate.

 

[47827]

I'd say there should be Takt with either XC or TPE operating hourly (and the other one terminating at Newcastle). And yes, loops so a proper hourly local Newcastle to Edinburgh EMU service can operate.

One other option rather than a separate local service, which may not need looping as often, is only letting TPE carry on running their shorter trains north of Newcastle if they form most of the Cramlington and Morpeth/Chathill service with the possible exception of the current 2 Chathill return trips formed of Northern rolling stock which are historical commuter sevices that did fill enough before covid. I doubt TPE would be too chuffed but the service is at least mostly electric with quicker accelerating emu stock then providing a "greener" and easier to path stopping service. It would also serve Berwick and Dunbar then fast into Edinburgh as there's a perfectly good service to North Berwick after that. Keep an LNER service of just a few services each way to and from London to retain the links for Dunbar, Alnmouth and Morpeth (possibly a few more for Berwick, say every couple of hours, out of the peaks if it demand justifies it).

Unless International tourism and London to Edinburgh traffic bounce back within the next couple of years though, it's possibly hard to justify LNER trains continuing at a half hourly from 6am to 7pm onwards though so perhaps every other hour outside the peaks you could turn one round in Newcastle without trouble so long as the fast services are proper length. It won't matter though as currently it seems we are still headed for 3 operators every hour between Newcastle and Edinburgh at present with LNER running twice an hour plus an open access operator granted a path at various times a day then all your freight etc plus stoppers at either end of the route and platforming headaches at Newcastle and Edinburgh to navigate.

 

[YorksLad12]

A new high-speed line should do it, that's how they're solving the problem between London and Birmingham. Of course, this doesn't involve London, so...

It has always surprised me that there isn't a local service between Newcastle and Berwick, given the perception that there is less traffic on that stretch of route compared with busier places further south that are also two tracks. Transport Scotland's proposal for a service between Edinburgh and Berwick sounds like a non-starter but then they're building Reston. Is an hourly (at least) service, flighted between non-stop LNER services north and south of Berwick and taking over the intermediate calls, possible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One other option rather than a separate local service, which may not need looping as often, is only letting TPE carry on running their shorter trains north of Newcastle if they form most of the Cramlington and Morpeth/Chathill service with the possible exception of the current 2 Chathill return trips formed of Northern rolling stock which are historical commuter sevices that did fill enough before covid. I doubt TPE would be too chuffed but the service is at least mostly electric with quicker accelerating emu stock then providing a "greener" and easier to path stopping service. It would also serve Berwick and Dunbar then fast into Edinburgh as there's a perfectly good service to North Berwick after that. Keep an LNER service of just a few services each way to and from London to retain the links for Dunbar, Alnmouth and Morpeth (possibly a few more for Berwick, say every couple of hours, out of the peaks if it demand justifies it).

Unless International tourism and London to Edinburgh traffic bounce back within the next couple of years though, it's possibly hard to justify LNER trains continuing at a half hourly from 6am to 7pm onwards though so perhaps every other hour outside the peaks you could turn one round in Newcastle without trouble so long as the fast services are proper length. It won't matter though as currently it seems we are still headed for 3 operators every hour between Newcastle and Edinburgh at present with LNER running twice an hour plus an open access operator granted a path at various times a day then all your freight etc plus stoppers at either end of the route and platforming headaches at Newcastle and Edinburgh to navigate.

I reckon London to Edinburgh traffic will bounce back, as people like city breaks, foreign ones aren't really on the agenda for the foreseeable and Edinburgh is a lovely city to spend a weekend in.

(That also works the other way round, though I'd call London interesting rather than lovely! )

 

[geoffk]

Other small towns on the ECML further south would probably justify a station if there was local service, e.g. Ferryhill and Bawtry. Same applies to other high speed lines, relieved in some cases by HS2 when it's built.

 

[D6130]

Demand may be small but how do you solve this one? On the WCML north of Carlisle we only have Lockerbie (Carstairs is off the mainline). On the east we have a number of stations north of Newcastle.

Carstairs is actually on the main line and I have always thought that, with a more frequent service, it could be developed as a Parkway-style station for the nearby towns of Lanark, Carnwath, Symington and Biggar.

It has always surprised me that there isn't a local service between Newcastle and Berwick, given the perception that there is less traffic on that stretch of route compared with busier places further south that are also two tracks. Transport Scotland's proposal for a service between Edinburgh and Berwick sounds like a non-starter but then they're building Reston. Is an hourly (at least) service, flighted between non-stop LNER services north and south of Berwick and taking over the intermediate calls, possible?

Getting back on-topic, given that Scotland - and therefore Scotrail - are almost certain to become independent in the next few years, it may not be politically acceptable for Scotrail to operate a local service from Edinburgh to stations South of Berwick. I still remain to be convinced that a local service from Edinburgh to Berwick, stopping at Drem (for North Berwick connections), East Linton, Dunbar and Reston - utilising the loops at Drem, Dunbar and Grantshouse when necessary - is beyond the bounds of possibility....even if it's only one train every two hours. If operated by 100mph class 385 units, it may not even have to be looped that often with careful pathing. South of Berwick is possibly a different matter, but a few 'fast' local services may be feasible, again using the existing loops where necessary.

Other small towns on the ECML further south would probably justify a station if there was local service, e.g. Ferryhill and Bawtry. Same applies to other high speed lines, relieved in some cases by HS2 when it's built.

A reopened station at Ferryhill, would have a wide catchment area - not only from the town itself, but also from the likes of Spennymoor, Sedgefield and surrounding villages. The platforms could be built on the slow lines and could be served by a new local service from Middlesbrough - or beyond - stopping at Thornaby, Stockton, possibly a reopened Stillington, Ferryhill, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle. Admittedly though, pathing on the ECML North of Durham would be problematical. Now if the Leamside line were to be reopened, the local service would not have to touch the ECML, but would be unable to serve Durham. However, that's a whole new can of worms which belongs in a different thread! Bawtry is a sizeable market town, which deserves a rail service but, to be honest, pathing a potential local service - or stopping the existing LNER York stoppers there - would be a logistical nightmare given the line occupation South of Doncaster.

 

[YorksLad12]

Getting back on-topic, given that Scotland - and therefore Scotrail - are almost certain to become independent in the next few years, it may not be politically acceptable for Scotrail to operate a local service from Edinburgh to stations South of Berwick. I still remain to be convinced that a local service from Edinburgh to Berwick, stopping at Drem (for North Berwick connections), East Linton, Dunbar and Reston - utilising the loops at Drem, Dunbar and Grantshouse when necessary - is beyond the bounds of possibility....even if it's only one train every two hours. If operated by 100mph class 385 units, it may not even have to be looped that often with careful pathing. South of Berwick is possibly a different matter, but a few 'fast' local services may be feasible, again using the existing loops where necessary.

Given the complexities of the line I wasn't thinking it would be one Newcastle-Edinburgh stopping service, more likely Edinburgh-Berwick (ScotRail) and Berwick-Newcastle (Northern/Provincial/Regional Railways/GBR Local/whatever). Then again, if there was demand and a desire for even Newcastle-Chathill it would have happened by now.

A reopened station at Ferryhill, would have a wide catchment area - not only from the town itself, but also from the likes of Spennymoor, Sedgefield and surrounding villages. The platforms could be built on the slow lines and could be served by a new local service from Middlesbrough - or beyond - stopping at Thornaby, Stockton, possibly a reopened Stillington, Ferryhill, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle. Admittedly though, pathing on the ECML North of Durham would be problematical. Now if the Leamside line were to be reopened, the local service would not have to touch the ECML, but would be unable to serve Durham. However, that's a whole new can of worms which belongs in a different thread! Bawtry is a sizeable market town, which deserves a rail service but, to be honest, pathing a potential local service - or stopping the existing LNER York stoppers there - would be a logistical nightmare given the line occupation South of Doncaster.

Lots of stations like Bawtry were closed to allow ECML services to be speeded up in the 1950s, I thought? Which brings us back to loops, slow lines and four-tracking - which I am not against, if the passenger demand is there or it provides an alternative mode of travel.

 

[HSTEd]

Get the highest performance EMUs you can find.

Class 395 or better if you can manage it.

Preferably all axles motored and huge installed power, install big doors on them.

 

[D365]

I can imagine that Grantham, Newark Northgate and Retford will finally see a clockface service post-HS2.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can imagine that Grantham, Newark Northgate and Retford will finally see a clockface service post-HS2.

It is more likely now with the new structure. I was expecting had the traditional franchise model remained the East Coast operator would still go for speed. London - Leeds? use LNER we are 15 mins slower but half the price. In the same way Chiltern / London Midland competes with IC west coast.

 

[47827]

A new high-speed line should do it, that's how they're solving the problem between London and Birmingham. Of course, this doesn't involve London, so...

It has always surprised me that there isn't a local service between Newcastle and Berwick, given the perception that there is less traffic on that stretch of route compared with busier places further south that are also two tracks. Transport Scotland's proposal for a service between Edinburgh and Berwick sounds like a non-starter but then they're building Reston. Is an hourly (at least) service, flighted between non-stop LNER services north and south of Berwick and taking over the intermediate calls, possible?

I really wouldn't bother with local services covering the Full run Newcastle to Edinburgh. Hence my suggestion about using TPE, as they are 5 car units and presumably have SDO fitted, to get a Newcastle to Berwick stopper (although at times of lower demand gaps of a few hours on the smallest stations to Chathill may be justified) plus serve Dunbar is the least wasteful on paths and I very much doubt Northern would care about no longer having to find a crew and units to run through to Morpeth all day, but there is merit in the 2 peak Chathill stoppers remaining as extras via Northern. As I said earlier, there's no justification (currently) for anything replacing or adding to the frequent North Berwick to Edinburgh stoppers when you get nearer to that end. I think an all/most stops to Berwick, then Dunbar only could be the answer for improving local services. About 1 hr 45 mins or slightly over would be the fastest an emu could do Newcastle to Edinburgh if only slow to Berwick, assuming its higher speed capability than a sprinter and superior acceleration to speed things up to Chathill by a minute or more for each stop (about an hour to Berwick at best and then 45 minutes to Edinburgh with a single Dunbar stop assuming it was given a good path). Essentially you would need a full half hour gap between any fast services though so you could go right behind one off either end before the other nearly caught you up (ideally the one behind be the service that would have 1 stop at say Berwick. The half hour between LNERs without the stopper would ideally be for XC or open access and any freights etc, but there is then the question whether said services fit further south. All speculative waffle though of course. Imagine the reality will just be an over congested mess with 5 to 6 passenger trains per hour each way covering Newcastle to Edinburgh plus stoppers to Morpeth plus North of Drem (and a few slightly beyond those extremities) with daytime freights and additional traffic becoming even more impossible to run and at least half of the services being too short to justify getting a path and/or carting around fresh air much of the time except for busier times of day/more popular days.

 

[TheBigD]

What's the combine population of places like Acklington, Widdrington Pegswood etc and would they have enough demand for an hourly local service?

 

[cle]

Are we talking the Peterborough - Doncaster (Leeds/York/Hull) stretch here, or Newcastle-Edinburgh? Similar issues.

Plus the likes of Thirsk, Northallerton and Chester-le-Street.

 

[Failed Unit]

Any. The discussion seems to head to the most difficult one of Newcastle- Edinburgh.

Peterborough - Doncaster could be easier.
EMU on slow lines until just Grantham, where fast trains can pass. Stop Newark and Grantham. (Doubt and EMU will lose much because of the distance compared to an Azuma). Then Retford where any fast trains can pass. short run to Doncaster. about 50 miles on double track. How hard can it be?

if that happened i expect LNER would cease to stop at Retford and leave HT for the London traffic.

 

[47827]

What's the combine population of places like Acklington, Widdrington Pegswood etc and would they have enough demand for an hourly local service?

Just search the places on Wikipedia if you want breakdowns for the places the station is named after. Here's an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acklington

Also consider nearby villages and indeed towns which are a reasonable distance to the station in question. In that area I would consider Warkworth and Amble as 2 examples to study. Local bus services, parking options and road quality and other stuff will all be factors in whether the neighbouring places may wish to use the rail service. Population demographics, where people work etc and the sorts of leisure journeys they may make in their spare time need in depth study to consider the viability of any station (and indeed extra journeys people may suddenly choose to make by rail if it became easier). Proposed/likely/brand new housing developments nearby in the catchment zone also may need considering as 12 months down the line something such as that can improve the viability of a service. Recall this being overlooked when Irish Rail binned off Rosslare to Waterford (even though the service was terrible). There are also plenty of instances where existence of transport links can encourage house building if planning permission is easy to get in that area.

Without pouring over local data there are a few of those stations that could probably at best have a service every few hours justified at present. A similar example on the WCML Crewe to Liverpool route being Acton Bridge which now enjoys a 2 hourly service much of the day following gaps of at least 3 to 4 hours in the daytime. Although bigger gaps may be justifiable for the lesser attractive stations.

The reason why Newcastle to Berwick (merged in with Edinburgh) gets discussion on the ECML is that its one of the only ones that could/should be improved possibly. Doncaster to Peterbough lacks enough smaller stations to want to squeeze a small emu shuttle onto it. There are that many services South of Doncaster on the ECML that keeping an odd one with current stopping patterns means a local service between the few stations there are is already provided pretty much doubling up with a London and Leeds link.

 

[30907]

Peterborough - Doncaster could be easier.
EMU on slow lines until just Grantham, where fast trains can pass. Stop Newark and Grantham. (Doubt and EMU will lose much because of the distance compared to an Azuma). Then Retford where any fast trains can pass. short run to Doncaster. about 50 miles on double track. How hard can it be?

Peterborough-Grantham has 3tph under the 2022 proposal, so all you need is Grantham-Retford (loop)-Doncaster.
But you need to path it with the Newark stop, and ideally on the alternate hour to the Lincoln.
So 11.00 (approx) off Grantham, following the 10.00 Open Access ex KGX, and into Retford clear of the 10.03KGX - might just be possible with an Azuma.
You then have to let 2 fasts through and reach Doncaster about 11.55 (if that doesn't clash with the other OA path).
But Retford-Doncaster has 2 trains per 2h, so you don't really need to duplicate them (or if you reopen Blyth, use a separate path and unit for a shuttle).
So you can have a high-speed Grantham-Newark-Retford shuttle every 2h - the question is, who is going to use it to justify running a 110mph train taking a double path through Newark?

 

[cle]

I'm not sure it's that worth it. It can be handled through the various skip stops + P'boro-Grantham on EMT etc etc etc - if there is a singular gap, calls could be added in the peaks or the OA folks might pick it up.

Newcastle-Edinburgh seems more logical. More stations along the route, commuting potential to big cities at either end (vs P'boro/Don) - and less current intercity calls meaning a local service would make more sense than spreading calls throughout long distance services. Dunbar is done, but there needs to be more ability to loop/pass. Berwick station seems an obvious one, but tricky to do construction. Morpeth of course would be useful, but is the business case strong with HS2, given London-Edinburgh will be 3h30 or so eventually?

 

[43074]

I'm not sure it's that worth it. It can be handled through the various skip stops + P'boro-Grantham on EMT etc etc etc - if there is a singular gap, calls could be added in the peaks or the OA folks might pick it up.

Yes I agree, and Peterborough and Doncaster (unlike Newcastle and Edinburgh) aren't massive destinations in their own right sufficient to warrant a shuttle. The problem with Newcastle to Edinburgh is that whilst they are destinations in their own right it is a two track railway between them and there isn't very much population between about Morpeth and Dunbar to serve on the way.

 

[swt_passenger]

I trust everyone about to announce draft timetables for north of Newcastle is allowing for the 2 tph to the Blyth and Tyne, with the necessary flat crossing of down trains over the up line at Benton Junction…

 

[Failed Unit]

I trust everyone about to announce draft timetables for north of Newcastle is allowing for the 2 tph to the Blyth and Tyne, with the necessary flat crossing of down trains over the up line at Benton Junction…

Built it as an extension to T&W Metro
OK that is another thread. But I assume the is the line that runs parallel with the TW Metro until about Shiremore

 

[swt_passenger]

Built it as an extension to T&W Metro
OK that is another thread. But I assume the is the line that runs parallel with the TW Metro until about Shiremore

Yes, but actually a bit further, as far as Northumberland Park. But apart from a short length at the junction it is single track for the first few miles, so I expect that must also impact the timings on and off the mainline.

 

[HSTEd]

It is more likely now with the new structure. I was expecting had the traditional franchise model remained the East Coast operator would still go for speed. London - Leeds? use LNER we are 15 mins slower but half the price. In the same way Chiltern / London Midland competes with IC west coast.

Ultimately I expect HS2's time advantage to be so crushing that attempting to compete on price is doomed to failure, especially with high speeds lower cost base

 

[Failed Unit]

Ultimately I expect HS2's time advantage to be so crushing that attempting to compete on price is doomed to failure, especially with high speeds lower cost base

I sort of forget about HS2 for a couple of reasons. 1. I don't think it will ever get into phase 2 - A change of government and into the long grass it goes, 2. Even if it does it is such a long way off, that if Morpeth did become a mega traffic source they can't wait for HS2 to build the infrastructure to support it. - If feel the same about the 3rd runway at Heathrow, so much talking so little action.

But when you consider that First East Coast are set up to be low cost and slow (to get people out the sky) we will see fairly quickly how many people are only bothered by £.

 

[RobShipway]

I sort of forget about HS2 for a couple of reasons. 1. I don't think it will ever get into phase 2 - A change of government and into the long grass it goes, 2. Even if it does it is such a long way off, that if Morpeth did become a mega traffic source they can't wait for HS2 to build the infrastructure to support it. - If feel the same about the 3rd runway at Heathrow, so much talking so little action.

But when you consider that First East Coast are set up to be low cost and slow (to get people out the sky) we will see fairly quickly how many people are only bothered by £.

I think it will depend on how people have done through the last 16 months. With a good majority being on less monthly wages than normal for many months with being on Furlough, you may find FEC having to run their class 803's in multiple. But it will also depend on the first reviews of the service, namely quality, wifi etc...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it will depend on how people have done through the last 16 months. With a good majority being on less monthly wages than normal for many months with being on Furlough, you may find FEC having to run their class 803's in multiple. But it will also depend on the first reviews of the service, namely quality, wifi etc...

I think FEC will be interesting to watch closely as it's the first "paradigm shifting" open access operation. All the others have just been a conventional train service at a cheaper fare than the incumbent.

If it's really successful, it needs to influence how the mainline service works.

 

[TheBigD]

But when you consider that First East Coast are set up to be low cost and slow (to get people out the sky) we will see fairly quickly how many people are only bothered by £.

First East Coast have said that the average fare will be £25*. Ryanair have shown that people will prioritise cheap fares over almost everything else.
Although only 5 trains a day may limit the appeal. Will be interesting to see how their services fit in to the new ECML May 2022 timetable and how many stops they can get at Stevenage which will have only 1 through train to Edinburgh at 0609.
I wonder if they will try to get extra calls at places like Dunbar in the coming years given the reduction in LNER services there, or northwards to Stirling?

* second point down on their front page...

High-quality, low-cost train travel for the East Coast from FirstGroup

By 2021, FirstGroup will offer

www.firstgroupplc.com

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if they will try to get extra calls at places like Dunbar in the coming years given the reduction in LNER services there, or northwards to Stirling?

Why would they put extra stops in or add extra costs like going to Stirling?

First East Coast have said that the average fare will be £25*. Ryanair have shown that people will prioritise cheap fares over almost everything else.

What if the costs are now higher than when they first advertised and the competition is charging higher fares? Much less reason to charge £25 then no matter what they have said before March 2020.

Whatever they are, they aren't the answer to local travel on the East Coast route.

 

[TheBigD]

Why would they put extra stops in or add extra costs like going to Stirling?


What if the costs are now higher than when they first advertised and the competition is charging higher fares? Much less reason to charge £25 then no matter what they have said before March 2020.

Whatever they are, they aren't the answer to local travel on the East Coast route.

If they think it's profitable they might. Over the years Hull Trains have added stops at Howden and Retford and extended some of their services to Beverley. Things evolve and companies adapt.

As for the fares, that's what they are currently claiming, though I've no doubt that they'll change that if they have to.